Listen to the podcast or watch the full interview.

Summary

In this episode, Steven Schauer interviews Adam Stielstra, a filmmaker and storyteller, about the power of storytelling. They discuss their background in filmmaking and how storytelling has shaped their lives. Adam shares his journey into filmmaking and the importance of storytelling in his work. They also explore the art of storytelling and how it can move people to action. The episode highlights the role of storytelling in connecting human hearts and creating meaningful change. Adam Stielstra discusses the power of storytelling and the narrative arc in creating impactful messages. He emphasizes the importance of emotional connection and the ability to weave a story that engages and resonates with the audience. Adam shares his current projects, including a mini-documentary on energy and sustainability, an anti-sex trafficking campaign, and a documentary series on spirituality. He promotes his company, Narrative Paintbrush, which focuses on storytelling with a purpose. Adam envisions a better future where acts of love are prioritized, leading to freedom and the ability to create more meaningful art.

About the Guest

Adam Stielstra, Chief Storyteller for Narrative Paintbrush is dedicated to making an impact. Adam uses his storytelling experience and skills to create narratives that improve lives. With extensive experience in film, the arts, and storytelling, he collaborates with clients to create narratives that deeply connect with audiences. His work has been recognized with several awards over the years. Adam has tackled diverse topics and causes, and, notably, he played an integral role in creating the acclaimed Nooma film series, sparking global conversations. When Adam is not telling stories, he’s basking in music and nature, playing with his dogs, and being a dad.

Adam Stielstra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamstielstra/

Narrative Paintbrush: https://narrativepaintbrush.com/

Show Notes

redM anti-human trafficking organization: https://www.joinredm.com/

Information about the John Hopkins psychedelics study:

https://hub.jhu.edu/magazine/2020/fall/psychedelics-god-atheism/

https/www.nytimes.com/2024/03/21/health/psychedelics-roland-griffiths-johns-hopkins.html

Keywords

storytelling, filmmaking, sustainability, connection, art, creativity, storytelling, narrative arc, emotional connection, impact, energy, sustainability, anti-sex trafficking, spirituality, acts of love, freedom, art

Transcript

00:00:00:16 – 00:00:27:04
Steven Schauer
Hey everybody! Welcome to the very first episode of Stories Sustain Us. I’m your host, Steven Schauer, and I’m excited to be here. Thank you all for joining me for this very first episode. It’s this is a show idea that I’ve been working on for for many years, and I’m just super excited that it’s finally come to life. So before we jump into our first discussion with our very first guest, I thought it’d be helpful if I told you a little bit about what story sustain us is going to cover.

00:00:27:06 – 00:00:58:08
Steven Schauer
So, as implied in the title story, sustain Us, we’re going to be talking about sustainability on this show. And that’s a very big term that covers a whole lot of different topics. So clearly we’re going to be talking about environmental issues like climate change, obviously, and how are we going to preserve and protect our oceans and freshwater systems and other ecosystems all around the planet, not just for the benefit of us humans, but how are we going to do so in a way that protects the planet for all the other creatures that we need to share it with?

00:00:58:10 – 00:01:23:23
Steven Schauer
But sustainability is much more than just environmental issues. It also covers a wide array of social issues. So on this program, we’ll be talking about things like how are we going to improve health care and education? How are we going to end poverty? How are we going to provide affordable transportation? How are we going to reduce inequalities that still persist in all different areas of our social structure around the world?

00:01:24:00 – 00:01:50:15
Steven Schauer
And then the final piece of the puzzle that fits under sustainability is economics. How are we going to do all of this environmental work that we need to do social change that we need to do and do all of that important work in a way that is also sustainable from an economic perspective. So on this show story sustain us, we’re going to look at sustainability really from the triple bottom line approach of people, planet and profits.

00:01:50:17 – 00:02:10:19
Steven Schauer
So that’s kind of the subject matter we’re going to talk about. And how are we going to do that? Is also implied in the title story sustain us. We’re going to use the power of storytelling facts and figures and data. All of that’s very important and will be covered on this show. Undoubtedly. But facts and figures and data alone isn’t what’s going to move people into action.

00:02:10:21 – 00:02:31:21
Steven Schauer
Data doesn’t inspire people to go change their behavior. What really moves people to action is when a story can reach out and grab your heart, make you understand the situation, and want to do something differently. And that’s what we’re going to try to accomplish with this program story sustain us. We’re going to have guests on each week, and they’re going to talk about their own personal journey.

00:02:31:21 – 00:02:55:18
Steven Schauer
So we get to know the guest a little bit, and then we’ll dive into a conversation about their work. The amazing things that these people are doing all around the world to make the world a better place. But we’re going to do so through the power of storytelling, not just with facts and figures and data. So ultimately, what we’re trying to accomplish with this program is to use the power of storytelling to inspire people into action.

00:02:55:20 – 00:03:15:15
Steven Schauer
So that’s kind of the goal. That’s what we’re aiming for. That’s what I hope we can deliver. so let’s jump in to our very first episode, and let me tell you first a little bit about our guests, and then we’ll dive into the conversation. Our first guest is Adam Steele Stroh. He’s the chief storyteller for Narrative Paintbrush, and he’s dedicated to making an impact around the world.

00:03:15:16 – 00:03:44:07
Steven Schauer
Adam uses his storytelling experience and skills to create narratives that improve lives with extensive experience in film, the arts, and storytelling. He collaborates with his clients to create narratives that deeply connect with audiences. His work has been recognized with several awards over the years, and Adam has tackled diverse topics and causes. And notably, Adam played an integral role in creating the acclaimed Numa film series, which sparked global conversations.

00:03:44:09 – 00:04:05:03
Steven Schauer
When Adam is not telling stories, he is basking in music and nature, playing with his dogs and being a dad. I’ve known Adam for a number of years now, and I’m really grateful that he agreed to be my first guest on this program. So let’s jump into episode one of story steadiness and hear about Adam’s story.

00:04:05:03 – 00:04:18:12
Steven Schauer
All right. Well, Adam, welcome. Welcome to episode number one of story Sustain Us. You are the first guest on my new podcast. So welcome, my friend. How are you doing this afternoon?

00:04:18:14 – 00:04:44:09
Adam Stielstra
I’m doing just fine. And, it’s an honor to be the first guest. I hope I can kick it off well, for you. And I think it’s just exciting that you are that you’re doing this. And we have a cool background together and, you know, and the storytelling is at the core of how we know each other, why we know each other, how we’ve worked together and and really what brings us back here.

00:04:44:09 – 00:04:47:03
Adam Stielstra
So yeah, thanks for thinking and man.

00:04:47:05 – 00:05:29:21
Steven Schauer
Absolutely. Well, let me tell a little bit of that story, that background about how storytelling connects us, so that folks can can understand that because it really does storytelling does connect us. And you, being my first guest is, is, important to me because of our, our working relationship. And, for those who don’t know, I, I’ve made a few documentary films in my background over the last decade, and the first one that I ever made, was, really about a dozen years ago, right about at this time, 12 years ago, I came up with an idea for a documentary film, and having never made a film before, I had

00:05:29:23 – 00:06:02:14
Steven Schauer
been working with, Adam on some commercial spots and some other PSA’s and things that we were doing at the time together, and, and, I knew he was the right person for me to share this vision of a film with. And I gave him as much as I could out of my head. and he took that vision, and was the cinematographer was the director was the editor, and took that vision and turned it into a reality, an award winning reality, by the way, we won a few awards with that documentary film.

00:06:02:16 – 00:06:24:06
Steven Schauer
and that for me, really sparked this, sense in me that, oh, I do have some creativity in me because prior to that point in my life, I don’t know that I really latched on, to that belief that there was, a creative energy inside of me, and you kind of crack that open and watching you work, I was absorbing what you were doing.

00:06:24:06 – 00:06:46:03
Steven Schauer
I was, you know, really paying attention to how you created this film. And that inspired me to go on to make a couple more movies. And, and now here I am, trying a new thing that I’ve never done before, podcasting. And, I couldn’t think of a better person to bring on than you, to help me tell the audience about storytelling, because that’s what this show is about.

00:06:46:03 – 00:07:08:08
Steven Schauer
It’s about storytelling under the really large umbrella of sustainability, but it’s really about connecting human hearts, through the power of storytelling. So thank you very much for joining me on this first episode. so, tell me a little bit about yourself. Tell the audience a little bit about your background. Adam. How did you know where where you born?

00:07:08:08 – 00:07:19:11
Steven Schauer
What was childhood like? You know, up to kind of your your current day profession. What are some highlights of the life of Adam Steltzner?

00:07:19:13 – 00:07:46:15
Adam Stielstra
sure. there’s a story for you, right? born in Michigan in the 70s and, in a little town near Lake Michigan shoreline and, grew up, I would say kind of lower middle class, maybe even poorer than that. but we lived in a little place where everyone was the same. So you didn’t know any different.

00:07:46:17 – 00:08:21:22
Adam Stielstra
And, nature surrounded by nature, surrounded by beautiful Michigan woods and Lake Michigan and, it was kind of a dreamy kind of heavenly for me. And from my earliest memories, stories have motivated just about everything I do in life. And, making things up, make believe, staying in that make believe frame of mind. I’ve been doing that since I was a little, little kid, and trying to get others to play long.

00:08:22:00 – 00:08:43:19
Adam Stielstra
kind of been a director since my single digits. you’re this guy. You’re that person. You’re this person. All right, now we’re all going to stay in our roles and act this stuff out. So I always see life is movies, or the written word. And I was kind of brought up in a family that really encouraged the arts.

00:08:43:21 – 00:09:16:04
Adam Stielstra
my dad owned, radio stations and recording studios, and so music was a big part. He was also a, working jazz musician. So, he’s always gigging, and then music was just always there. he helped start, Blue Lake Public Radio in Michigan, which is one of the first, public radio stations. Right on. And probably the best known, but just a, an amazing thing for Blue Lakes Fine Arts Camp.

00:09:16:06 – 00:09:26:04
Adam Stielstra
So I got to meet people like Bill Cosby and, and, back when he was still all right, by the way, Bob Hope, there.

00:09:26:04 – 00:09:26:17
Steven Schauer
Were.

00:09:26:19 – 00:09:50:12
Adam Stielstra
People who would come and appear on the on the stage at the Performing Arts Center up the lake, and they would broadcast it live. So we get to be exposed to all this stuff early on. yeah. Moved to Grand Rapids, Michigan, went to high school there and made a lot of friends there. Had had roots there for a long time and then got married and ended up moving around having kids.

00:09:50:12 – 00:10:04:09
Adam Stielstra
And now I reside just outside Boulder, Colorado. So, so it went for me. This place is truly heaven and this is where I was meant to be. This is I would not want to live anywhere else.

00:10:04:12 – 00:10:35:06
Steven Schauer
Yeah, right. well, I’m glad you landed. Where you’re where you are at home. so tell me a little bit about how you got into filmmaking. I get the, you know, being a director from your single digits and, you know, imagination and, you know, you playing with your friends and everything. When did a camera end up in your hands and and you start, creating, art from that perspective of, of films and whatnot.

00:10:35:06 – 00:10:38:15
Steven Schauer
How how did that happen in your life?

00:10:38:17 – 00:10:56:19
Adam Stielstra
Well, that was a, progression from pursuing art in the form of drawing and painting, pottery, things like that, being exposed to as many different art forms as I could be, and also music lessons and music really stuck with me from an early age too.

00:10:56:19 – 00:10:58:18
Steven Schauer
But yeah, you play an instrument.

00:10:58:18 – 00:11:05:03
Adam Stielstra
You’re you’re what do you play? I’m a multi-instrumentalist, actually. So, right on here, but I’m surrounded.

00:11:05:03 – 00:11:06:19
Steven Schauer
I got the guitar back there, I see that, yeah.

00:11:06:20 – 00:11:09:08
Adam Stielstra
You got one? Yeah. There’s. Yeah, there’s four others. Right.

00:11:09:08 – 00:11:12:18
Steven Schauer
Several around. Nice.

00:11:12:19 – 00:11:38:11
Adam Stielstra
but yeah, I play several different instruments that compose music. I do that really on the side. it’s not my day gig, but. Yeah, I kind of wish it was. That’s. That was the original goal. Yeah. but it’s all storytelling in some way. You know, when we sit down and look at a piece of art, even if it’s a static painting or a photo, there’s a story there.

00:11:38:13 – 00:12:15:02
Adam Stielstra
And sure, we need words to describe the feelings that the art give gives us. Right? So those words translating emotions, that’s the story. And so I have been in love with that idea. when I really kind of came to terms with it, I guess would be high school when, we were introduced to photography. Yeah. And we had film and film cameras and darkrooms and, I wasn’t so good of a draw and a painter, although I really wanted to be.

00:12:15:02 – 00:12:36:20
Adam Stielstra
And I still to this day envy people who are. Yeah. but I found that I could compose photographs that can get me very close to what I wanted to express, but with other means. Yeah. And so I started taking that very seriously. So that was the first time I actually had cameras in my hands.

00:12:37:01 – 00:12:44:08
Steven Schauer
This was a pre-digital camera era, right? This was actual photography. So darkroom. So this was actually, you know.

00:12:44:10 – 00:12:49:05
Adam Stielstra
Black and white enlarger, darkrooms camera, all the. Yeah, whole thing. Yeah.

00:12:49:05 – 00:12:50:02
Steven Schauer
Right on.

00:12:50:04 – 00:13:25:02
Adam Stielstra
And what I learned was how it how I could tell a story with a single frame. and I still abide by this philosophy today. It’s it’s my mantra when I’m taking still photographs, which I don’t do as much anymore, but every picture you take, if you’re really in it to to be a photographer, every picture you take should tell a story that will make it a success for photograph.

00:13:25:04 – 00:13:57:00
Adam Stielstra
Yeah, it’ll be something people want to look at and explore. How do I feel about this? What’s it saying to me? What am I learning from it? What am I learning about myself by gazing at it for a long time? What’s the story there? So I always approach things in that way. And that’s really when I started. And, you know, we had, friends, parents, video cameras and things like that to, in high school to make ridiculous movies, you know, with my friends where you had to, you know, you’re doing it all in camera, right?

00:13:57:00 – 00:14:02:01
Adam Stielstra
So you you had to make sure that your, your editing was, was also your not shot.

00:14:02:01 – 00:14:03:13
Steven Schauer
So, sure.

00:14:03:15 – 00:14:22:02
Adam Stielstra
Shoot it this way and had to make it. You only had one take because then the next time you hit record on the camera had to be that had to be the cut. Right? Right. And so that was, you know, the buffoonery that takes place when you’re doing stuff like that is hilarious to sit back and watch.

00:14:22:02 – 00:14:47:18
Adam Stielstra
And so I started to understand sequence of shots. And then I started to understand how two shots put together tell a different story than two shots. sort of separate. Sure, sure. if you took a photograph of something and then you took a photograph of something else, and you framed them together in the same frame, you now have a story.

00:14:47:20 – 00:15:14:23
Adam Stielstra
You have a story that’s different than if you put each one of those photographs in different frames. Right. So it’s that idea, of and the emotional connection and the cultural connections that happen when you take two images and put them next to each other. When I was in high school, I saw a film in a philosophy class that, my mind absolutely blew my mind.

00:15:14:23 – 00:15:35:17
Adam Stielstra
And I fell deeply in love with motion picture storytelling when I saw this film. This is this is what tipped me over the edge and made me say, wow, you know, art, this is sort of like art at its best, in my opinion. So you recall.

00:15:35:17 – 00:15:37:12
Steven Schauer
What the film was or what it was about?

00:15:37:13 – 00:16:05:01
Adam Stielstra
Yeah. No, of course. And I’m a, I’m and I still watch it regularly to this day. And we’re talking like I saw it in 1992. Yeah. And I still watch it still sometimes brings me to tears and it’s so amazing. But, it’s called Kiana Scalzi, and, it’s a film by Godfrey Reggio. Philip Glass wrote the soundtrack, which is second to none.

00:16:05:03 – 00:16:26:08
Adam Stielstra
Fantastic. kind of mind blowing in and of itself. And back in those days, you know, you can. And it was all shot in like 65 millimeter blown up to 76, like big widescreen Cinemascope. And there’s no actors, there’s no dialog, there’s no actual human voice. It’s just music and images. Wow.

00:16:26:08 – 00:16:27:00
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

00:16:27:02 – 00:16:59:17
Adam Stielstra
for 90 minutes. And the philosophy of what I was talking about, where you can stack an image after another image, there’s no better study in that than. Yeah, on a scuzzy. And then the subsequent films that were made in this sort of this family of films that went on to include, power gutsy and, naked. Casey and then Baraka and some Sara, I’d say maybe the best of them all is Baraka.

00:16:59:19 – 00:17:03:13
Adam Stielstra
Yeah. but have you seen that?

00:17:03:15 – 00:17:14:17
Steven Schauer
I’ve seen that one. And I’ve seen some Sara and they’re they’re stunning. They’re amazing. Yeah, yeah, that I if they’re all made by the same family of. Well, the subsector.

00:17:14:17 – 00:17:27:15
Adam Stielstra
From the first three, kind of just gave the project over, to his cinematographer, a guy named Ron Frick. And so, yeah, Ron went on to make Baraka and Samsara.

00:17:27:15 – 00:17:44:17
Steven Schauer
Yeah, they’re absolutely Must-See films. I yeah, they’re so moving and powerful without, like, you say, without words. It’s just the imagery, the stories that they’re telling just grab you deep. And I think.

00:17:44:17 – 00:17:45:01
Adam Stielstra
It’s.

00:17:45:01 – 00:17:46:16
Steven Schauer
Pulled me.

00:17:46:18 – 00:17:58:13
Adam Stielstra
Yeah, it’s I think it’s, every bit as much storytelling as The Princess Bride.

00:17:58:15 – 00:18:01:19
Steven Schauer
Sure. 100% that. Yeah, yeah, it’s.

00:18:01:19 – 00:18:22:03
Adam Stielstra
You just you gotta you gotta sit with it. You need to be in it. But once you start watching it and it it pulls you in. Yeah. And it’s got just as much flow and just as much arc as a movie like The Princess Bride, where the whole thing’s being narrative narrated from a storybook. You know what I mean?

00:18:22:05 – 00:18:35:02
Adam Stielstra
Yeah. The Princess Bride is kind of hand fed, but the storytelling is just as strong in this other film. That’s no actors, no speaking music and images all around the world. I mean, yeah.

00:18:35:04 – 00:18:45:03
Steven Schauer
Yeah. No, that those are amazing films. All three of those that you mentioned that I’ve seen on my favorites list. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

00:18:45:05 – 00:19:18:10
Adam Stielstra
So that that happened, my senior year of high school, I saw that film and that just sort of shifted everything in my head, because I had wanted to be, fiction writer. Yeah. but I didn’t really know what to study. And I was coming up on, graduating from high school, and, eventually, within two years after graduation, I went to film school, and so, went to, Columbia College, Chicago, art school and studied cinema Tography, in the 90s.

00:19:18:10 – 00:19:40:09
Adam Stielstra
And, you know, from there I got sort of fast tracked, I took it very seriously, and I got noticed. And so when people would call the school and say, hey, can we borrow one of your students to work on this film for free? I was the one they chose. And. Yeah, that turned into paying gigs and eventually, as a camera assistant.

00:19:40:09 – 00:19:57:02
Adam Stielstra
And then eventually I moved up to cinematographer. And then in 2000, I started a very wise person, came up to me on, set, and said, do you direct also because I was the director of photography on that shoot?

00:19:57:07 – 00:19:58:08
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

00:19:58:10 – 00:20:03:03
Adam Stielstra
And he kind of waited until the director was away this year. And he said.

00:20:03:05 – 00:20:04:09
Steven Schauer
There’s, there’s the wisdom.

00:20:04:14 – 00:20:22:13
Adam Stielstra
Yeah. Right. And I said, no, I don’t. And he said, well, you should, would you direct. We’ve got some projects coming up. Would you direct those. Would you take a crack at it? Yeah. I think you’re better than the director we’re working with right now. And so it’s a huge compliment. And, you know, you learn to never say no.

00:20:22:13 – 00:20:45:15
Adam Stielstra
What I’ve learned to do is, to advance in my own careers, always say yes. And then just scramble to learn whatever it is between when you said yes and when you’re committed to actually do it, let me tell you, you’ll find it. And and you can, you can, you can weave that into your work. And so that’s what I did.

00:20:45:17 – 00:20:54:00
Adam Stielstra
so yeah, that, that that’s what kind of kicked my career off. And what lit the, the fuze for storytelling for me.

00:20:54:06 – 00:21:24:11
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Can I back you up just a bit in time? I seem to recall a time you told me a story about before you got to Chicago. and in film school, it was a it was a wonderful story that you told me about how you kind of found out that you were really good at this, and kind of got some support from your your, family to, to help you along the way.

00:21:24:11 – 00:21:36:20
Steven Schauer
You mind sharing that story? Because it’s a great story to really emphasize, that at a very young age, you had a skill for this, and, and I’d love to have you share that with everybody, if you don’t mind.

00:21:36:22 – 00:22:03:00
Adam Stielstra
No. Yeah. I’m happy to. so, you know, the really starts with, it starts with me being in love. So I was in love. And I put my life on pause to follow a young lady down to Ann Arbor, Michigan, and being near her while she studied at the University of Michigan. And I kind of just worked, so in that time, she challenged me, you know, what are you going to do with your life?

00:22:03:00 – 00:22:27:02
Adam Stielstra
What are you going to be? What’s your career? and I didn’t really know. And then when I started doing some real heavy thinking about it and soul searching, I guess, as they say. But, filmmaking was the thing that came up because I hadn’t really done anything with the fiction writing. And I think I just romanticize being a writer more than anything else.

00:22:27:04 – 00:22:40:04
Adam Stielstra
but filmmaking seemed like a real thing. And so I moved back to Michigan and I said, mom, dad, I want to go to film school. And they said, yeah, I’ve done anything since you graduated from high school.

00:22:40:06 – 00:22:42:18
Steven Schauer
And it’s back to Grand Rapids.

00:22:42:19 – 00:23:12:07
Adam Stielstra
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I moved back from Ann Arbor and they said, prove to us, that you’re serious about this, enroll in the local community college, take a few classes, show us that you’re committed, and then we’ll think about it in a year. This is Columbia is not cheap to go to anyway. Sure, sure. so I said, all right, so I signed up, at the Grand Rapids Community College, a friend and I, together signed up for the one and only film class that they taught there.

00:23:12:09 – 00:23:34:09
Adam Stielstra
And then the first day of this class, they said, your grade will be based on two things. At the end of the semester, they’ll be based on an exam that you take 50%. And the other 50% will be based on a film that you’re going to be required to make. And we said yes, yes, we get to make a film.

00:23:34:09 – 00:23:54:07
Adam Stielstra
That’s why we took this class. And this is like the best news we’ve gotten all year. And, so he wanted to be an actor. I wanted to just be something that had to do with the camera, a storyteller of some kind of didn’t really know the names and the rules at that point. I just loved films. All the classic films.

00:23:54:07 – 00:24:21:05
Adam Stielstra
Oh, by the way, that girl left me that I followed. and so I spent the summer grieving. And the way that I sort of John my sorrows was by watching, like, having movie marathons every day and I, I had a crash course and all the classic films for three months. Yeah. so and, you know, films like The Godfather one and to Raging Bull, The Good, the bad and the ugly, those films classics.

00:24:21:05 – 00:24:37:19
Adam Stielstra
Yeah, doctor punched me and just, especially Raging Bull and Godfather two, they just. I was like, all right, this is it. I have to do. This is I like, I have no choice. Like, this is my calling have grabbed.

00:24:38:00 – 00:24:39:05
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

00:24:39:07 – 00:25:05:00
Adam Stielstra
So we said all right, we’re up for this challenge in this, community college film class. But they said, here’s the caveat. We don’t have it. We’re a you know, this is a small program. It’s really just like a joke. They said, we don’t have any cameras. We don’t have any lights. We have no editing capabilities. So good luck with your film that 50% of your grade depends upon.

00:25:05:02 – 00:25:28:02
Adam Stielstra
But I’ve got this punk rock ethos that I was born with, too. And, so we did what we had to do to pull everything together to make a film. And we borrowed cameras from other places. you know, we got lights if we could, or we just shot without lights. but we shot for months. We shot for the whole semester on and off.

00:25:28:04 – 00:25:39:19
Adam Stielstra
Never. We could pull friends together to kind of help tell this strange story. Which which was kind of diluted and not fully realized, but. Oh, well, yeah, it was my first crack.

00:25:39:19 – 00:25:40:06
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

00:25:40:08 – 00:25:57:23
Adam Stielstra
Yeah. So, the end of the semester comes in. By the way, I had a friend and a fill in a film program at a nearby university, and he said, you can come here on a weekend and we’ll let you I’ll help you, and we can use the editing capabilities. This is all shot on on VHS, too. So nice.

00:25:58:01 – 00:26:16:17
Adam Stielstra
we turned it black. Why we letterbox that? we did some things with the frame rates. Just try to make it look as filmy as we could. As cinematic as possible. I think we did a pretty darn good job, considering. And spent three days, with almost no sleep editing the thing, because we had to do it in a weekend.

00:26:16:21 – 00:26:40:22
Adam Stielstra
Two weeks at that university just to use the gear, without getting kicked out because I wasn’t a student. and we finished it, and we brought it to the professors of our community college, and we said, we’ve got our film. It’s done. And next week you’re you’re showing these films. Ours is really long. It’s a feature film length.

00:26:41:00 – 00:26:57:06
Adam Stielstra
but we have a cued up here on the, on the VHS to like, just watch these five minutes. These are our favorite five minutes and put this in and then please, you know, show it next week when you show all the student films. So they said all right, so a week goes by, we took our exam that the other 50% of our grade.

00:26:57:08 – 00:27:20:06
Adam Stielstra
Yeah. And screening day came and it was like a three hour class. And we sat there all three hours and they never showed the clip of our film, and we were crushed. Yeah. My friend was the lead actor. There I am, I got the first time ever I’m seeing my name director in the credits on a, you know, hopefully on a big screen and, nothing comes up.

00:27:20:06 – 00:27:40:22
Adam Stielstra
And so we’re devastated. We couldn’t imagine why they wouldn’t show just the clip. So after the class ended, we went down and there were two professors and yeah, we went down and talked to them both and they said, we said, why didn’t you show our film? They said, yeah, because that’s not your film. And we said, what do you mean?

00:27:41:00 – 00:28:01:22
Adam Stielstra
They said, there’s no way you made this. There’s, one of the things they pointed out was, continuity issues because we shot some scenes, you know, it was a it was a fall semester. So we shot some scenes were like leaves were green, then leaves were brown, then there were no leaves. and the cuts were close together, and I didn’t know about continuity.

00:28:01:23 – 00:28:31:17
Adam Stielstra
I was sure about that. Yeah. so they said this was somebody else’s project. We don’t believe you made it. And they flunked us. Completely flunked us. We got we each got 50%, you know? So it’s a failing grade. Yeah, I was, I rea I was heartbroken. but I knew that they just their professors have a community college film class in the 90s.

00:28:31:17 – 00:28:45:11
Adam Stielstra
They just had never seen someone take this seriously. The next best films that were being shown, where people aiming a camera out their minivans, shooting Christmas tree lights. Yeah. You know, that whole.

00:28:45:11 – 00:28:45:19
Steven Schauer
Movie.

00:28:45:23 – 00:29:07:04
Adam Stielstra
Right up against right. so they just, they, they just had no way of believing, what they were seeing because no one had ever tried that hard. So, I failed, and I had to go to my parents who said, if you succeed, we’ll help you go to a real film school. And so my success story was that I failed.

00:29:07:06 – 00:29:28:04
Adam Stielstra
So I went to them and they knew the work I’d done, they they’d seen everything. My mom’s, was a teacher, and it was her school that provided the camera with. So they they honestly said, your failing grade is proof enough for us that we need to send you to a place where they’re going to take you seriously.

00:29:28:10 – 00:29:34:22
Adam Stielstra
Yeah. And so that’s what they did. And so by failing, I completely succeeded.

00:29:35:00 – 00:30:00:07
Steven Schauer
And I love that story. And the first time you told me that, I was like, that’s such a beautiful story because it is the way life often works. We we fail at something. But it is in that failure that we are launched into a new success. And, and, you know, it’s such a, a great story for this show and, and a great story of your life.

00:30:00:07 – 00:30:27:11
Steven Schauer
And I appreciate you sharing that with me. And, and, let me transitioning now into, you know, teach me, teach the audience the art of storytelling. That’s one of the reasons I wanted to have you come on this show, is really kind of set the table for future episodes that this is about storytelling around issues that revolve around sustainability.

00:30:27:11 – 00:30:55:23
Steven Schauer
But first, we have to kind of grasp and understand what the art of storytelling really is and how it moves people to action. Better than data, better than facts and figures and that’s ultimately what I’m trying to achieve with the show, is to have people come on and share their personal stories, the stories about the great work they’re doing, the ways that they’re trying to make this, planet, better for, for all, inhabitants.

00:30:56:01 – 00:31:21:14
Steven Schauer
but I don’t want it to be just data driven. Show there’s. That’s not what this is. This is about stories. Because it’s stories that move people into action. So tell us what is the art of storytelling and what makes up a good story and and how how can a story grab someone’s emotional being and move them into action?

00:31:21:16 – 00:31:26:14
Adam Stielstra
Yeah, that’s that’s a beautiful question. And it’s also a really big question.

00:31:26:15 – 00:31:29:16
Steven Schauer
Sure, sure.

00:31:29:18 – 00:31:44:12
Adam Stielstra
you know, I, I’m, I kind of refer to myself as like a blue collar storyteller just because, you know, I don’t have an Oscar. I have a couple Emmy nominations for that. but.

00:31:44:14 – 00:31:46:09
Steven Schauer
You know the Oscar yet?

00:31:46:10 – 00:32:15:06
Adam Stielstra
Yeah, right. but I love storytelling, and. Yeah. Yeah, it’s it pays my bills. and it’s it flows in my veins. It’s, I have no choice but to do it. Right. That’s. I think maybe to start, my answer would be to say when you feel called to do something, it’s an irresistible thing. You you it’s like it’s guiding you.

00:32:15:07 – 00:32:37:16
Adam Stielstra
You don’t really have a choice. Yeah. It don’t either eat you up or you or you need to just go do it. And, I’ve been eaten up by things, and, it’s better to go do it. I’m, I have a happier life, and I’m actually fulfilling the urge to make art, and in my case, make art with a purpose.

00:32:37:16 – 00:33:15:20
Adam Stielstra
So, I mean, just for a little bit of background reference, I, for the most part in my career, have told stories that are based on messages that help people. So stories for, humanitarian aid related subjects, stories around spirituality, stories around, non ordinary states of consciousness, stories around energy and sustainability, and working with you to do environmental related things.

00:33:15:22 – 00:33:55:14
Adam Stielstra
so many different stories around stuff like you say that there really is sort of in the nuts and bolts could be data driven, but that’s not what that’s not how humans communicate. If we were robots, maybe. Right. But we are spiritual beings. And so stories are how we take in that emotion and share it back. so I like to say I take a message and I weave a story out of that message so that people can relate to that message.

00:33:55:15 – 00:34:24:20
Adam Stielstra
They can have this moment and say, I love that story. And then you can say, well, what was the message in there? They can easily tell you what the message was, but the how they got there is the is the important tool, right? It’s the thing that gracefully brought them from a beginning to an end on an emotional arc that landed on what this message is, and that is absorbed emotionally into this spirit that is each one of us.

00:34:24:23 – 00:35:00:08
Adam Stielstra
And that’s the power of art in all its forms. so how do I do it? you know, there’s really a, there’s a basic formula that I follow. It’s it’s about the only kind of like, formulaic data kind of thing I’ll even mention in all of this. But yeah, it really starts with the narrative arc. And you could be talking about a 62nd piece of powerful storytelling, or you could be talking about a 90 minute piece of power and anything in between.

00:35:00:10 – 00:35:32:16
Adam Stielstra
but it starts with an arc, and the arc is the path, the emotional path and the time path of the story. What happens in that arc will will change the curve of the arc, the drama will increase, and there will be very significant moments and, you know, you can break it down and sort of like how plays are broken down into, you know, thirds, films are as well, and books are as well.

00:35:32:16 – 00:36:02:14
Adam Stielstra
And so that’s a very simple formula. but it’s what, what do you do with it, what happens in those in that are in those thirds? What are the transitions, the pivotal moments? how have you drawn someone in with what you’ve created at the beginning and then made a shift in the middle and then ended it in a, in a with a good resolve, with a, with a satisfactory resolve of some kind.

00:36:02:14 – 00:36:14:18
Adam Stielstra
And in my case, that’s always the moment when they get the message. Yeah. Through the emotion of the story. So I think, you know.

00:36:14:20 – 00:36:42:18
Adam Stielstra
Not everybody is good at this. I think that we all have the ability to tell stories. I think we all have the ability to harness creativity to our advantages. but I think that some people are just sort of cut out more for that than others. in the same way that I don’t have any idea how to use an Excel spreadsheet.

00:36:42:20 – 00:37:12:04
Adam Stielstra
right. I wasn’t cut out for that. I just I’m not I literally can’t figure those things out. So, and they’re supposedly really easy, right? but my mind doesn’t work that way. Yeah. So telling stories, it’s it’s it’s about the delivery. It’s about the emotion and sort of the, it’s very much like music, especially classical music.

00:37:12:06 – 00:37:24:03
Adam Stielstra
although so much of music is storytelling, even the, the instrumental stuff like, like classical, where you’re following swells and crescendo moves and then drops and yeah, there’s an arc. So those.

00:37:24:03 – 00:37:26:17
Steven Schauer
Emotional waves. Yeah, absolutely.

00:37:26:19 – 00:37:52:18
Adam Stielstra
And so, you know that that’s what a good story does too. And by the end, hopefully you’re good enough that you’ve had the attention of the audience the entire time. and by the end, they, they, they walk away with that message or that emotional impact. Yeah. but I will say, I don’t think there is like a one size fits all.

00:37:52:18 – 00:38:21:09
Adam Stielstra
Like, if you do it this way, you’ll always succeed. I think it really depends on who’s who’s telling the story. And what is the story. Is the story any good too? Yeah, but I think a lot of storytellers, can take a boring message or a boring theme and weave it into something that’s so much more interesting that by the end you’re like, I never thought shoelaces would be that cool.

00:38:21:13 – 00:38:24:08
Adam Stielstra
You know what I mean? Yeah, it can be done.

00:38:24:10 – 00:38:49:05
Steven Schauer
Yeah, well, I’m a I’m a personally a big fan of Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth. And, you know, the year with a Thousand Faces and some of his works that kind of capture that storytelling arc that humanity has used since we started, you know, painting figures on cave walls, you know, thousands. And then, you know, tens of thousands of years ago.

00:38:49:07 – 00:39:15:00
Steven Schauer
Yeah. You know, that that idea of that hero’s journey, that is kind of a formula. But like you said, it’s it it does take a person with a a skill set and weaving that narrative together, you know, and following that arc of the call to action. You know, I was thinking of what you just shared a moment ago about your own, you know, the the hero’s journey of Adam.

00:39:15:00 – 00:39:37:01
Steven Schauer
You know, that you have this call and you you have to go create things that, that, you know, that would eat you up inside if you didn’t follow that call. So that’s kind of like the beginning phase of, of your personal hero’s journey of having to go out an adventure into the unknown of what does that mean for you?

00:39:37:03 – 00:40:04:02
Steven Schauer
you know, and finding help along the way and struggling along the way and having hardships along the way, and then eventually, achieving that success and returning, you know, kind of full circle almost, after having gone on that, that journey and, and, you know, it’s, it’s when you see it in a film or hear it in music or read it in a book, and when it’s done well, it’s inescapable.

00:40:04:02 – 00:40:40:09
Steven Schauer
You can’t help but be drawn in, by the power of a good story. And I’m hopeful that, you know, we’ll have some really great stories, on this show around these issues of sustainability. And it’s a giant umbrella. all of human activities of essentially kind of fall within sustainability in one way or another. can you talk a little bit about some of the work you hinted at, you know, some of the things that you’ve done?

00:40:40:11 – 00:40:56:18
Steven Schauer
but, you know, not only are you a great storyteller, but you’ve been telling really powerful stories around, you know, like you said, energy. And and there’s, you know, some other work that I know you’re, you’re working on right now that’s incredibly powerful. Can you talk a little bit about some of that?

00:40:56:20 – 00:41:00:11
Adam Stielstra
Sure. Yeah.

00:41:00:13 – 00:41:33:21
Adam Stielstra
So one thing I will say to just, just quickly is that back to the storytelling idea of how is a good story told? Just this is something I say, quite often when I’m, giving pitches or sometimes at screenings when we’re showing things, that I’ve made. but, you know, everyone can, you know, think of the best movie you’ve seen in a long time and then think of the worst movie you’ve seen in a long time.

00:41:33:21 – 00:41:55:10
Adam Stielstra
You know, once people people see a bad movie, everybody’s a critic. Everybody seems to know everything they need to know about filmmaking, and they can tell you exactly why this story was no good. But when you think of a film or or any story, you know, whether whatever format that comes in, but we’ll use film as an example.

00:41:55:12 – 00:42:23:16
Adam Stielstra
when you think of one, you’ve seen that. So good. Like this Korean, a Scott C or Baraka that I was talking about earlier, you cannot pinpoint all the things that made it great. You are. You’re just left with a feeling, right? And that feeling is what I crave, right? So I like to make things that give other people that feeling because I get that feeling while I make it.

00:42:23:18 – 00:42:24:22
Steven Schauer
Yeah, yeah.

00:42:24:23 – 00:42:43:22
Adam Stielstra
You know, my ideal situation, would that screening something I’ve made is if I could sit facing the audience while they watch the thing. Yeah. because just seeing other people, you know, I’ve seen it a thousand times. I don’t need to see it again. When I make something, I’m done with it, I move on. I don’t ever watch stuff I’ve done.

00:42:43:22 – 00:43:12:17
Adam Stielstra
But, but for that time, just after, when it’s fresh, it’s great to to see others and see how it impacts them. Because I had that feeling the whole time I was making it. So, yeah. So what am I working on? I’m working on, a few different projects right now. I have a mini documentary that is, 20 minutes long, and it’s going to be entered into some film festivals here in the US.

00:43:12:19 – 00:43:38:00
Adam Stielstra
about 20 different festivals. this year, I hope, you know, we’ll see how many it gets accepted into. I think it’ll probably do pretty well, but it’s about energy and sustainability. with all types of energy, fossil and, renewable and nuclear and geothermal and hydro and all the rest. And so it’s called the energy dilemma.

00:43:38:00 – 00:44:10:10
Adam Stielstra
And, and it’s really, the, the point of it, the goal of it is to not only educate, but to essentially what we did was we we took people who would never sit in the same room and be friendly and have a friendly conversation about these subjects. so the idea was, well, if we can’t get them in a room, then we’ll put them in a film which will feel like a type of room, and they’ll be they’ll be sort of, you know, playing off each other in the edit.

00:44:10:12 – 00:44:16:23
Adam Stielstra
And so it’s all about the unfolding and sculpting that takes place in the edit, especially the documentaries. Yeah.

00:44:16:23 – 00:44:24:21
Steven Schauer
I love, the editing room, on the documentaries I’ve made that I it’s that’s where the story comes to life, because you get to piece it together and, yeah.

00:44:24:21 – 00:44:25:21
Adam Stielstra
You’re you’re chiseling.

00:44:26:03 – 00:44:27:04
Steven Schauer
Yeah, yeah.

00:44:27:05 – 00:44:49:11
Adam Stielstra
Yeah. And so, so there’s that and I’m excited to see where that goes. The goal is to make it into a full feature. But our budget was relatively small for this. few hundred thousand dollars. And so we I think we did a lot with it, though. Yeah, we traveled all over the place. Got a lot of wonderful experts to be in it.

00:44:49:13 – 00:45:21:14
Adam Stielstra
another, project I’m working on right now is in the world of, a very close to my heart subject, fighting sex trafficking. starting now domestically in the US. But then the bigger vision is to take, take this plan and, and, take it to other countries. But, sex trafficking, you know, I think it’s about the darkest subject that there is, it’s the most evil crime on earth, in my opinion.

00:45:21:14 – 00:45:46:07
Adam Stielstra
I, I can almost say that as, like a fact. because when you start to hear these stories, yeah. You’ll never be the same. Yeah. And so what we what I did was, created, the seven, 62nd PSA is we’ve shot a few of them, not all of them yet. and none of this has been released.

00:45:46:07 – 00:46:05:21
Adam Stielstra
Right? So, but it’s coming in. We’re excited to see what it does. It will be the first anti-trafficking campaign of its kind. should make some real serious waves when it comes out. And our goal is to have one of these says, run during the Super Bowl. Maybe not the next one, but for sure the one after.

00:46:05:21 – 00:46:35:14
Adam Stielstra
So we’re excited about that. But, you know, that’s a challenge because I’m taking on has a really dark subject and I’m trying to weave a story out of that. That’s still acceptable, but almost not acceptable. It brings you right to the edge of total discomfort. And then just when you’re about ready to say no, that’s when it it flips and it goes from dark to light.

00:46:35:16 – 00:46:41:00
Adam Stielstra
And it not only gives you hope, but it shows you how you can be part of that hope. So it takes that message.

00:46:41:06 – 00:46:42:02
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

00:46:42:04 – 00:46:51:13
Adam Stielstra
This is terrible. And then it makes you feel that emotion. Like I want to do something about that. If you have any heart at all you do.

00:46:51:15 – 00:46:52:05
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

00:46:52:07 – 00:47:14:02
Adam Stielstra
And then it gives you a way. Gives you a way. So that’s the message. so I’m excited. there’s a larger film that will live inside, an anti-trafficking toolkit that we’re creating as well. That’ll be, closer to ten minutes long. But these are full scale cinematic productions. These are actors and locations and, yeah, big cruise.

00:47:14:02 – 00:47:49:16
Adam Stielstra
The last couple we shot, the crews were like 60 people, and, the cast and crew and so I’m excited about that. I’ve got, documentary series, short, like five minute pieces that are all about, people who were a part of the Johns Hopkins religious leader study where they, ingested psilocybin and, reported, you know, in the moment what they were seeing and feeling and just sort of just some really interesting studies around spirituality.

00:47:49:18 – 00:47:50:07
Adam Stielstra
So and these.

00:47:50:07 – 00:47:55:14
Steven Schauer
Were religious figures, right? These these were folks that, that, you know.

00:47:55:16 – 00:47:57:07
Adam Stielstra
there are clergy.

00:47:57:07 – 00:48:08:07
Steven Schauer
Practicing as members of a religious organization. Right? So it’s not not just, sampling of citizens doing this. This is, you know, people that are.

00:48:08:09 – 00:48:09:15
Adam Stielstra
In their own.

00:48:09:17 – 00:48:12:10
Steven Schauer
Religious communities recognized as leaders. Right?

00:48:12:12 – 00:48:13:07
Adam Stielstra
Yeah. That’s a really.

00:48:13:12 – 00:48:20:20
Steven Schauer
Interesting study to to see, the results of that when when you have a chance to publish the work that you’re doing around here.

00:48:20:20 – 00:48:33:00
Adam Stielstra
Actually, New York Times just came out with an article about this whole thing. I think last month. you can look it up. just search Hopkins psychedelic religious study. Yeah.

00:48:33:02 – 00:48:35:19
Steven Schauer
I’ll link that, show notes for folks.

00:48:35:21 – 00:49:13:07
Adam Stielstra
Yeah. And then, I’m I’m friends with, gentleman named Rick Doblin, who is the founder of maps, which is a big, psychedelic science, nonprofit organization pushing for advocacy for therapeutic use. And he has read the study that Hopkins has not yet published, but he was one of the peers reviewing it, basically. And so, yeah, one of the interestingly, one of the things he told me was, he said it was all just so data heavy that it was completely unrelatable.

00:49:13:07 – 00:49:32:03
Adam Stielstra
He said, so what you’re doing by telling the actual stories, we’re letting people tell their own stories is really what we’re doing. Right? he said, this is just one of the most important things happening in this realm today. So that was really encouraging. But again, the power of storytelling trumps everything.

00:49:32:03 – 00:49:54:00
Steven Schauer
So yeah, the data is important. We need the the quantitative data. We need experts, we need facts and figures. But if the experts want average people to understand the significance of their data, facts and figures, it needs to be translated for people. And we do that through the power of storytelling, through the power of words and emotions. Right?

00:49:54:00 – 00:49:54:20
Steven Schauer
So yeah.

00:49:54:21 – 00:49:57:07
Adam Stielstra
The spiritual connection, you know, that’s.

00:49:57:07 – 00:49:57:21
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

00:49:57:23 – 00:50:33:03
Adam Stielstra
To me, that’s exactly we are spiritual beings that stories are spiritual connections. We connect on an emotional level. To me, that’s a spiritual level. And yeah, you know, average citizens. But honestly, everyone, you know, it’s it’s just it’s going to be the thing that moves you, right? even how you present data in the form of a story, then you can present that data and the data becomes far more emotionally right.

00:50:33:05 – 00:50:58:17
Adam Stielstra
Empowering, for example. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So yeah. Absolutely. So that’s an exciting one to that one’s still, that’s it’s begun. But, we’re waiting at some additional funding to finish it. but that these are interesting things. I’ve got another project I’m doing right now, a small one on, storytelling about, foster kids and families success stories.

00:50:58:19 – 00:51:04:01
Adam Stielstra
And that’s a really difficult world. And some of the sex trafficking thing overlaps come.

00:51:04:01 – 00:51:04:20
Steven Schauer
Sure, sure.

00:51:04:21 – 00:51:22:08
Adam Stielstra
In that world, too. So, yeah, taking some tricky subjects, you know, none of these subjects I’m working on right now are easily discussed. Sure. they bring up all kinds of emotions from people, you know, but I like that. I like the challenge of that.

00:51:22:10 – 00:51:48:18
Steven Schauer
Yeah, well, you shared with me one of the spots or two of the spots, actually, of of your anti sex trafficking. and I can’t wait for, for those to be released to the wider public. The first one you shared with me is the 62nd spot. I was crying when it was over. I mean, it was such, a moving experience and 60s to, to tell this incredible story.

00:51:48:18 – 00:52:19:09
Steven Schauer
And then, like you said, end it with, a bit of hope and a bit of action that someone can do to help. And it was incredibly powerful, probably. I think Adam, the most powerful 62nd PSA I think I’ve ever seen. I mean, it’s really an amazing, piece of, of work that you put together. And I’m going to call it art, even though it’s, touching on such, an uncomfortable, difficult, dark situation.

00:52:19:11 – 00:52:46:22
Steven Schauer
The way you approached that ugliness of humanity, and spun it into the, the the hope that humanity can also do something about that darkness. And it was it was really stunning. I can’t wait for it to be released. And when it does go public, we will share it on our, website and social media channels as well, because I know it won’t be ready for the time that this airs.

00:52:46:23 – 00:53:05:15
Steven Schauer
that I want to help you spread that message when it is out there. Who are you doing that work for? I don’t recall you you mentioning that when you told the story of that work that you’re doing. I think that’s important to get that out there so folks know, what what that organization is so they can start supporting it now, even before they see the great spots that you’re doing for them.

00:53:05:17 – 00:53:36:07
Adam Stielstra
Yeah, definitely. the anti-trafficking organization is based in Houston, and they’re called red. the red. The word red, the letter them, they’re nonprofit, headed up and founded by, who’s become a close friend of mine now, gentleman named David Reid. David has a full time gig also. but this is quickly consuming most of his time.

00:53:36:09 – 00:54:16:17
Adam Stielstra
it’s mainly a, a volunteer based organization, but they have a national network. And it’s basically saying if you have a skill, we can and you and you hate trafficking, we can help you figure out how to utilize that skill for good for our for our shared purpose. And so what I did was I built a whole program, and presented it to David, which was basically like, if you’re going to empower all these people, then let’s give them the tools they need to be empowered.

00:54:16:17 – 00:54:43:18
Adam Stielstra
Right? You can’t just say, you know, if you’re really good at writing, you can help write for. Right? I mean, that’s that’s not enough. If you get 10,000 willing writers, you know, who are you going to choose? And so. Right. we need to give them something. We need to give the public something. And it’s so it’s a one size fits all anti-trafficking toolkit that, helps you start a movement in your own community.

00:54:43:20 – 00:55:18:18
Adam Stielstra
Wonderful. Yeah. So read, and then, the others, you know, the energy film that’s, personal project, myself and the executive producer, and then, the, the, the Johns Hopkins psychedelic thing that’s actually through that was funded privately through donations. But, that’s sort of in conjunction with, we’re not another nonprofit called, Guerra, and it’s a Christian psychedelic society.

00:55:18:20 – 00:55:22:00
Adam Stielstra
Right. founded by one of the members of the study.

00:55:22:02 – 00:55:23:02
Steven Schauer
Interesting.

00:55:23:04 – 00:55:25:13
Adam Stielstra
Yeah, well.

00:55:25:15 – 00:55:47:13
Steven Schauer
We’re kind of getting close to some time here. promote yourself a little bit. How can folks get in touch with you if. Yeah, if they want, you know, know more about your work or engage you in a project that they’re working on. You know what? What is, you do so much promoting others. do a little bit to promote yourself.

00:55:47:19 – 00:55:51:06
Adam Stielstra
Yeah. Thanks. Yeah, I forget to do that from time.

00:55:51:11 – 00:56:00:11
Steven Schauer
We all, we all do. We get caught up in the good works we’re doing, and we forget to say, a little bit about ourselves. So now’s your shot.

00:56:00:13 – 00:56:23:06
Adam Stielstra
yeah. So my company is called Narrative Paintbrush, and I think the name really speaks for itself. to me, storytelling is an art. we like to apply our art to meaningful messages. So I like to say art with a cause or storytelling with with the purpose. With the cause. Something that does good for other people.

00:56:23:06 – 00:56:52:07
Adam Stielstra
So. So if you’re looking to just learn more about how to tell those stories, if you’re looking for consultation in this way, if you’re looking for a complete storytelling project, we do all those things, and I’m the chief storyteller there. but narrative paintbrush.com is where you can learn more about us and get in touch. we’re Denver based company, and we kind of work all over the country.

00:56:52:09 – 00:57:02:05
Steven Schauer
Perfect. We will put that all in the show notes as well, so folks can, find you and, hopefully give you some more great projects, work on.

00:57:02:07 – 00:57:03:08
Adam Stielstra
I would love that.

00:57:03:10 – 00:57:05:01
Steven Schauer
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:57:05:03 – 00:57:30:08
Adam Stielstra
I mean, you know, if people want to just talk about it, they just want to. I fly all over the place, you know? I can fly in, fly out. It’s really easy. I do it all the time, and I can help take your message and turn it into a story that’s going to have that strong connection with the audience that that you want to reach.

00:57:30:08 – 00:57:43:23
Adam Stielstra
And that will drive donations, fundraising, that will drive action. calls to action will determine what those things are and then build a story around it. So it’s really what I love to do.

00:57:44:01 – 00:58:09:09
Steven Schauer
Fantastic. Well, and I want to wind up here. but certainly thank you. I’m incredibly grateful for you taking the time to, to join me on this first episode. And, and, I’m immensely grateful for, the relationship, that started out as a working relationship a dozen years ago. But again, you you really did crack open on me.

00:58:09:11 – 00:58:41:23
Steven Schauer
this idea, that everyone can be a storyteller. And, I’ve tried to pursue that, since we started working together a dozen years ago. And, I’m really grateful for that. I do want to end each episode, in a similar way, we talk about some heavy subjects of, that some other guests coming up in in future episodes that are going to be also talking about these difficult subjects around sustainability, whether it’s, you know, how are we going to get clean energy or what is climate change doing for us?

00:58:41:23 – 00:59:04:07
Steven Schauer
Or what is, you know, changing capitalism, you know, transforming capitalism to be more, purpose based as opposed to just solely profit based. I mean, there’s these are some difficult things and some of them are, are kind of dark, in, in, heavy, you know, climate injustices and social justice issues and, you know, environmental justice issues.

00:59:04:09 – 00:59:29:17
Steven Schauer
So I want to end each show with, a bit of hope. And, you know, we talked about some heavy subject matter here, too. Sex trafficking is is immensely dark topic. and I, you know, commend you for working on shining a light on it to, to help raise awareness and hopefully bring that to an end. so I got some questions around hope.

00:59:29:19 – 01:00:02:14
Steven Schauer
Hope being, something that an individual can envision a better future, for themselves or their community or the world or whatever, but a better future combined with, the agency to help make it be, you know, help it, you know, so it’s you’ve got a vision and you’ve got some ability to make that vision a reality. So, the first question for you and this kind of a rapid fire just kind of give me your, your gut answer.

01:00:02:16 – 01:00:10:13
Steven Schauer
what’s your vision for a better future could be for you personally, professionally, globally, for the world. What’s your vision for a better future?

01:00:10:15 – 01:00:20:00
Adam Stielstra
Yeah. Yeah, that’s that’s an easy one. it’s one word love.

01:00:20:02 – 01:00:20:20
Steven Schauer
Okay.

01:00:20:22 – 01:00:55:04
Adam Stielstra
My vision for a better future is is actually, if you wanted to get out a few more words to that, please do. Yeah. Define it. it would be acts of love. To me, love is a verb. It speaks. Those actions speak so much louder than words. So I think, you know, the the more and love comes in so many ways and it can be so significant, but still so small, sometimes so easy.

01:00:55:06 – 01:01:24:07
Adam Stielstra
But you have to be intentional. You have to give it and then you receive it and it just makes you want to give it more, because then you receive it more and it just it’s it’s own reward. And so, my, my, my hope and my vision for a better future would be if everyone pursued tiny acts of love more often than complaint or frustration.

01:01:24:12 – 01:01:49:23
Adam Stielstra
Honestly, most of the time, what people are complaining about, it’s as if they have the luxury of complaint. And the way I see that is like, you know, you’re whining about stuff that’s just so meaningless, but but it’s it’s building this, this dark eruption inside of you that eventually will explode. And it is never going to be good.

01:01:49:23 – 01:02:21:17
Adam Stielstra
But if you if you rearrange that pursuit and that energy into acts of love giving, not receiving, you will start to receive them and your world will open up and you’ll let light in. And to me that is that’s the power of God. And, we all need to embrace that. And and that can absolutely lead more than anything else to a better future.

01:02:21:19 – 01:02:40:01
Steven Schauer
I think you covered my next question. But just to throw it out there, why? I think you covered the wire pretty thoroughly. but is there anything else you want to add on to why acts of Love is your vision for the future?

01:02:40:03 – 01:02:45:05
Adam Stielstra
because love is the truth, and the truth wins.

01:02:45:06 – 01:03:09:11
Steven Schauer
Perfect. Third and final question. Now imagine that your vision for the better future has come to be, and we are behaving and treating each other, and showing acts of love, more frequently. How does that make you feel?

01:03:09:13 – 01:03:41:22
Adam Stielstra
Then think it makes me feel free. Like. And because there’s there’s always going to be some problems. There’s always going to be a little drama. There’s always, you know, people are still going to get sick. We’re all still bound for not being on this planet forever. but what it allows you to do is shrug those worries and shrug those petty cares, release that frustration and and just let it melt away so that now you’ve got this freedom.

01:03:41:22 – 01:03:57:13
Adam Stielstra
And what can you do with your freedom? You can not only give more love out, but you can do it in forms, that you really want to. So it would it would make me feel free to create more art.

01:03:57:15 – 01:04:19:08
Steven Schauer
Perfect. With that. thank you. Adam. I am going to try to work towards a world where I’m doing more acts of love. because I want that same freedom that you just described. What a beautiful vision for the future. I hope we can all get there together. So thank you, my friend, for being part of this first episode.

01:04:19:08 – 01:04:34:15
Steven Schauer
I think you got us kicked off in a wonderful direction. and I couldn’t have ended on a on a better note than talking about, the power of love to go along with the power of storytelling. So thank you, Adam, for being here. I wish you all the best, my friend.

01:04:34:17 – 01:04:36:00
Adam Stielstra
Thank you, my friend.

01:04:36:00 – 01:04:55:12
Steven Schauer
Well, all right, that brings us to the end of episode one of story. Sustain us. Want to take a moment to thank Adam Stielstra one more time for joining me on this very first episode. I appreciate his time. I appreciate his perspective on the power of storytelling and all of the great work that he’s doing in the realm of sustainability.

01:04:55:14 – 01:05:18:03
Steven Schauer
And I was really grateful to hear what his vision for the future is, this idea that each of us can do more acts of love to help make the world a better place. That really resonated with me, in large part because that’s that’s what I’m trying to do with this show. This show story, sustain us is one of my acts of love, to try to make the world a better place.

01:05:18:05 – 01:05:40:13
Steven Schauer
I came up with the show idea really, because of years of years and years of watching and reading news. That is just pretty horrible. You know, everywhere I turn there’s stories that are are not great. You know, when you look at environmental stories that are happening in the news, there’s month after month, there’s new heat records being set.

01:05:40:14 – 01:06:06:22
Steven Schauer
There are people dying in India and the Philippines and Mexico and south, the United States, from heat related illnesses as record setting temperatures are being established over and over again. There’s torrential storms happening around the world, the devastating floods in southern Brazil. The storm systems that are blowing through the plains of the United States that are dropping cantaloupe sized hail on Texas.

01:06:07:00 – 01:06:29:10
Steven Schauer
You know, everywhere you turn, glaciers are melting. You know, here in the Pacific Northwest where I am, Mount Rainier is losing its graziers. We we know glaciers are shrinking. And Greenland, in the Swiss Alps and in Antarctica, everywhere you turn, there’s an environmental story that says the planet’s in trouble now, and it’s predicted to get worse in the years and decades to come.

01:06:29:12 – 01:06:51:10
Steven Schauer
Social stories aren’t any better, right? There’s political unrest around the world. Our political discussions are getting more and more polarized. Thanks. probably in large part to the wonderful algorithms of social media that have us all connected and finding ourselves in our own little echo chambers so we don’t even really realize we don’t know how to talk to each other anymore.

01:06:51:12 – 01:07:27:01
Steven Schauer
there’s authoritarian language and elected officials gaining power throughout the world that is, really troubling to me personally. And you add in other social issues like homelessness and drug addiction that are taking people every day from opioid and fentanyl overdoses, and not just in our big cities, but in rural areas as well. and then top all that off with the troubling reality that social inequality still exists everywhere, whether it’s race or gender or sexuality or economic inequalities.

01:07:27:03 – 01:07:49:23
Steven Schauer
Those seem to be getting worse, not better. So anywhere I turn to get my news over the last several years, it just seems to be a troubling world that we’re living in. And if you’re like me, that can bring up feelings of anger or frustration or worry or anxiety, or sometimes it can just feel overwhelming because the news is so big and so bad and I’m just a single person.

01:07:49:23 – 01:08:13:20
Steven Schauer
What can I do about it? So that overwhelming emotion comes on, which just kind of shuts you down and makes you tune it out. Well, that’s what I’m trying to combat with this show story. Sustain us is a program that I came up with because I want to feel inspired to do something different. I want to help change the world any way I can, even if it’s just a little bit.

01:08:13:22 – 01:08:30:01
Steven Schauer
And I know there are millions and millions of people out there doing amazing things every day. And I want to talk to them. I want to get to know them. I want to be inspired by them. And if I’m going to talk to them, I might as well record it. And share it with you so that maybe you can get inspired to.

01:08:30:04 – 01:08:58:17
Steven Schauer
So that’s what we’re trying to accomplish with this show story. Sustain us is to use the power of storytelling to inspire actions. So I appreciate Adam summing it all up for me by saying we should all do more acts of love. I hope you heard something today in this episode, number one, that you enjoyed, that inspired you into action, that maybe resonated with you and where you are in your journey, and that you’ll want to come back and listen to or watch episode number two.

01:08:58:19 – 01:09:22:15
Steven Schauer
Let me tell you just a little bit about that. It’s going to be released on June 25th. Our guest is from the area around London, and he is the founder of the Change Makers Alliance. And we have this great conversation about what it means to be a change maker and how anyone can be a change maker, whether you’re doing something small just for your own neighborhood or community or something grand to make the world a better place.

01:09:22:17 – 01:09:48:21
Steven Schauer
Everybody can be a change maker and everybody can help make the world a better place. So the conversation also talks, about how we can transform our economic model from being about the single bottom line profit and move towards a more triple bottom line, where our businesses and our jobs are driven by purpose that have to do with people, planet and profitability.

01:09:48:23 – 01:10:08:06
Steven Schauer
So it’s a great conversation on episode two of Story Sustain Us. That’ll come out on June 25th. You can get it on our website, Story sustainer. Com or wherever you listen to your favorite podcast. So until then, I’m your host, Steven Schauer. Thank you for being here with me. I wish you all well and we’d ask you to take care of yourself.

01:10:08:08 – 01:10:12:18
Steven Schauer
Until next time. So cheers. Goodbye. Take care.

Listen to the podcast or watch the full interview.

Summary

Dash Desai shares with Steven Schauer his personal journey and the evolution of his company, SmallOutside.com, into The Changemakers’ Alliance (TCA). He emphasizes the importance of finding passion and purpose in work and enabling awesome people to achieve awesome outcomes. Dash discusses the impact of mental health in the workplace and the need for individuals to discover their inner spark. He introduces Spark AI, a solution that helps people connect with their purpose and connect with others. Dash Desai discusses his vision for a better future, which is to have every business be a force for good. He believes that by transforming capitalism and focusing on impact entrepreneurship and conscious consumerism, businesses can create positive change for people and the planet while still being economically prosperous. Dash encourages individuals to take action and become change makers themselves, connecting with like-minded people and joining communities that support their journey. He also emphasizes the importance of showcasing and supporting change makers, providing them with the resources and opportunities they need to make a difference.

About the Guest

Dash Desai can be contacted on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dashdesai/

• Changemaking – Founder of The Changemakers’ Alliance – 𝗣𝗮𝘃𝗲𝗧𝗵𝗲𝗖𝗵𝗮𝗻𝗴𝗲.𝗼𝗿𝗴
• Impact Entrepreneurship – Building People & Planet positive Tech For Good Solutions – 𝗦𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗹𝗢𝘂𝘁𝘀𝗶𝗱𝗲.𝗰𝗼𝗺
• System Integration Consulting – Supporting Transport sector in the UK – 𝗕𝗼𝗻𝘀𝗮𝗶𝗧𝗦𝗟

Show Notes

United Nations Sustainable Development Goals: https://sdgs.un.org/goals

Next Big Idea Club with Christopher Marquis:  https://nextbigideaclub.com/magazine/pay-damage-keep-profit-change-modern-business-bookbite/49953/

Key Words

Dash Desai, personal journey, SmallOutside.com, Change Makers Alliance, passion, purpose, mental health, workplace, Spark AI, change making, vision for the future, transforming capitalism, impact entrepreneurship, conscious consumerism, economic prosperity, showcase, connect, support

Transcript

00:00:00:17 – 00:00:33:07

Steven Schauer

Welcome to episode number two of story Sustain us. I’m your host, Steven Schauer. And today I’m speaking with Dash Desai. We discuss how finding passion and purpose in your work is essential for personal fulfillment and happiness. I was also very interested in learning about a new AI tool that is developing that can help individuals discover their passion. This new AI tool is connected to the Changemakers Alliance, which is a cooperative founded as a place where people who are driven by their inner spark can connect with others who share similar passions.

00:00:33:09 – 00:00:58:20

Steven Schauer

This can then lead to greater collaborations, impact and fulfillment. In this fascinating conversation, Dash also shares his thoughts about how transforming capital ism is going to involve focusing on impact, entrepreneurship and conscious consumerism. In addition to being the founder of the Change Makers Alliance, Dash has an impact entrepreneur himself who is building people and planet with positive tech for good solutions.

00:00:58:22 – 00:01:12:09

Steven Schauer

And he is a systems integration consultant supporting the transport sector in the UK. Let’s jump into the conversation with Dash Desai on story. Sustain us where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

00:01:12:09 – 00:01:21:12

Steven Schauer

All right. Well, welcome. Thank you for joining me here on Story Sustain Us. I appreciate you taking the time to join me. How are you today?

00:01:21:14 – 00:01:36:21

Dash Desai

Absolutely brilliant. Couldn’t have been better soon. it’s Friday, having a good time. We’ve done some great things this week, so I’m absolutely in good shape this week. And, we’ve got about such a long time, so that’s also a big bonus for me this week.

00:01:36:23 – 00:01:44:23

Steven Schauer

Absolutely. So, so so everybody knows. Tell me, tell me where you’re calling in from. So I’m over here in Seattle and you are where?

00:01:45:01 – 00:01:56:23

Dash Desai

the south of London. so southwest of London, to be more specific. But we are about 50, 60 miles away from the, if you familiar with UK, it’s cloudy skies above us given.

00:01:57:00 – 00:02:20:08

Steven Schauer

So that’s cloudy skies here in Seattle. So Dash and I have been talking a little bit before we hit the record button. Catching up. just for some transparency, I met Dash where we met about a year and a half ago when we were, taking, a future of sustainable business class together at the University of Oxford.

00:02:20:08 – 00:02:44:05

Steven Schauer

So, when I met Dash, I just connected with you right away because you’re so energetic. You’re so, you know, full of life. And you know what? You’re working on. We’re going to talk about it in a little bit. was, you know, some ideas that were generating then. oddly enough, this podcast was kind of generated. The idea of it generated from that experience, during that class as well.

00:02:44:05 – 00:02:51:02

Steven Schauer

So it’s it’s really wonderful to reconnect with you after a year and a half. So thanks again for for doing the show with me.

00:02:51:03 – 00:02:59:00

Dash Desai

Yeah. No, it’s a pleasure. As and if you remember, my assignment of the final assignment was sustainability sucks.

00:03:00:05 – 00:03:07:21

Dash Desai

Well in the moment. And and what you’re really doing there, Steven, is you’re actually reducing the sucking this out of sustainability. So that’s what I mean.

00:03:07:22 – 00:03:28:08

Steven Schauer

Like that, that your, your whole kind of premise is what grabbed my attention. I was like, I got to know this guy and I’m grateful that that we connected. So, so this is my storytelling. You know, stories sustain us. So, tell me your personal story before we get into sustainability sucks and some of the other stuff that we’re here to talk about.

00:03:28:10 – 00:03:31:15

Steven Schauer

tell me about you. Tell me a little bit about your background.

00:03:31:17 – 00:03:36:21

Dash Desai

Ooh. I don’t know where it is. I should start. As in, it does go many, many years back.

00:03:36:21 – 00:03:40:20

Steven Schauer

Oh, start from the beginning. Yeah, start from the beginning. Yes.

00:03:40:21 – 00:03:45:14

Dash Desai

Right, right. So, I’ll touch on.

00:03:45:14 – 00:04:06:18

Dash Desai

Some aspects of my early life, if you like, but, I think the last 12, 13 years or so have been pretty critical. And the journey and the bits that we’re going to talk about in a moment. So. So I was born in India. I was raised there. We lived in the small village, the villages in it’s it was an industrial town.

00:04:06:20 – 00:04:16:09

Dash Desai

and just like most kids like itself, that is now. And, when you ask them what you want to do, there were no idea. And I don’t have any idea.

00:04:16:14 – 00:04:21:14

Dash Desai

It’s getting better, but, that’s what I mean, either. Well, yeah, we’ll figure.

00:04:21:14 – 00:04:42:15

Dash Desai

It out one day, but, no, I went through, the usual motions, figured out, I used to live in a chemical zone, essentially, so. Wow. And, oh, I need to do chemistry. That was the, the rationale behind it. So I did chemistry, a B.S. in chemistry, and that’s what I ended up doing. Came into Mumbai, which, is okay.

00:04:42:17 – 00:05:03:19

Dash Desai

City. It is the financial capital of India anyways. And over there, I did chemistry. I had no idea what I was doing it for other than, oh, maybe I’ll go back to my town. yeah, but that then took me down. And then this is the squiggly career path that often happens in your life. It gets down to your elbows.

00:05:03:20 – 00:05:27:13

Dash Desai

And I went down the path of, I said, no, this this is not what I can see myself doing for advertising and marketing. Sounds great. So that’s where I think some of our backgrounds kind of overlap with your video. Kind of. Sure, sure. I did that for five years. I said, this is not for me. Everything illogical seems to work in mass media, and I’m far too logical.

00:05:27:14 – 00:05:53:10

Dash Desai

So I made a switch. I said, technology sounds like the right thing for me. And frankly, Steven, I have not looked back yet. Logic is what excites me, what inspires me, and I can, My dad keeps saying, if you are doing something, if you love dancing, you will never, never get tired, will be the last person stand on the floor and technology that for me, it’s exciting.

00:05:53:14 – 00:06:15:20

Dash Desai

I see great possibilities and and especially at the time where we are right now with all high blockchain, metaverse, all amazing technologies are all kind of coming together. So, so glad I made that Desaision many, many years back. I think it was 1998. So I switch from advertising into this, came into, UK after that.

00:06:15:22 – 00:06:31:07

Dash Desai

just the company had a office here, so came okay. And then I did all kinds of things that work in telco, but everything I was doing was landscape. And that is because that’s what has shaped me over the last 24, 25 years.

00:06:31:07 – 00:06:36:10

Steven Schauer

And so describe large scale. What is what does that mean for for folks.

00:06:36:12 – 00:06:54:08

Dash Desai

Oh large scale. So let me give you a bit of an idea. The large scale be. So for example the telco we were to we I was working in a company which is now called Virgin Media, but used to be handheld during those days. And this was broadband, not modern broadband. This was dial up.

00:06:54:10 – 00:06:56:05

Steven Schauer

It’s okay. Yeah.

00:06:56:07 – 00:06:56:13

Dash Desai

Yeah.

00:06:56:15 – 00:07:03:18

Steven Schauer

So back a little while for the kids listening. Dial up was a thing that we used to do to connect to the internet.

00:07:03:20 – 00:07:04:18

Dash Desai

Yes, yes.

00:07:04:20 – 00:07:09:21

Steven Schauer

And on our touchtone phones that don’t exist anymore either.

00:07:09:22 – 00:07:11:18

Dash Desai

Yeah, yeah, but but it was that long.

00:07:11:18 – 00:07:34:18

Dash Desai

But it was still kind of emerging technology in terms of internet was still an emerging technology. And connecting people using those CDs, if you remember. Yeah. To push it on that. So that’s but but what I mean by large scale is things that actually enabled and then these are big infrastructures. It’s not small infrastructure. So I was always getting involved with lots.

00:07:34:19 – 00:07:54:11

Dash Desai

And one of the banks that I got involved in was most people haven’t heard of it, but it’s the it’s called the CLS Bank. okay. Last time, from what I remember now, the amount may have been higher, but they settled something like $1 trillion. and nobody’s heard of them because.

00:07:54:11 – 00:07:59:07

Steven Schauer

Yeah, that’s a little bit of money in that bank. Yeah.

00:07:59:09 – 00:08:20:01

Dash Desai

and then companies like shell. But, anyways, the career path took me down, eventually ended up in IBM. I was working at IBM, did some amazing things there, but this is where I want to focus the rest of the story, because that’s where the start my sustainability journey starts. So I’ll pause for a second. Yeah.

00:08:20:07 – 00:08:21:16

Dash Desai

You’ve got a question. Yeah.

00:08:21:16 – 00:08:47:04

Steven Schauer

Let’s back up just a little bit before we before we get to to the sustainability story. And I’m intrigued by the chemistry part. because I think we have a another connection, a life connection that, that maybe we didn’t know about until just now. My initial, undergraduate degree, back in the early 90s was chemistry. kind of fell into it, similar to it sounds like you did like.

00:08:47:04 – 00:09:12:17

Steven Schauer

Yeah, I don’t know. That’s just seems like the I, I enjoyed it it makes sense to me. you know, all all of the, you know, just the whole periodic table and everything, just like it just made sense so that that was, you know, kind of my, you know, how biochemist someday and, similar, similar to you, I discovered that’s that’s not at all what I want to do and, you know, changed into environmental science and left the chemistry behind.

00:09:12:17 – 00:09:24:05

Steven Schauer

But so tell me a little bit more, though, about that part of that period of your life. I’m assuming you were 18 to 22. You know, during that chemistry phase, or.

00:09:24:07 – 00:09:28:18

Dash Desai

It would be around that this was the, beautiful 80s.

00:09:28:20 – 00:09:31:20

Dash Desai

Yes. So that’s what it was.

00:09:31:22 – 00:09:54:05

Dash Desai

but I then if you ask me, my my daughter makes fun of me when she has a chemistry question and I can’t answer it. So like that. Nice. Was that bad? I will say, talk to me about technology and we can have a great conversation. Talk to me about chemistry and I’ll get it completely wrong. So that’s that’s that’s my business.

00:09:54:07 – 00:09:56:19

Dash Desai

It’s been so much common between us.

00:09:56:21 – 00:10:09:01

Steven Schauer

Yeah. Yes, absolutely. and I want to know a little bit more, if you don’t mind my asking you mentioned your father, your your family, still live back in India or you so very much.

00:10:09:01 – 00:10:09:10

Dash Desai

Yeah.

00:10:09:12 – 00:10:16:23

Steven Schauer

Yeah, yeah. So. So are you the lone lone member of your family that that has left India or. yeah.

00:10:17:00 – 00:10:34:05

Dash Desai

Yeah, yeah, we are a tight knit family. I’ve just got an older brother and he and his family and her mom and dad are all together, so that’s great. They’ve got local support. Essentially. Good became my wife and we became just as to. We love.

00:10:34:06 – 00:10:35:05

Dash Desai

So yeah.

00:10:35:10 – 00:10:38:10

Dash Desai

But that’s that’s the achievement of the last 24 years if you like.

00:10:38:14 – 00:10:43:17

Steven Schauer

And that’s a big achievement. That’s probably the biggest of the achievements. I’m sure.

00:10:43:19 – 00:10:45:07

Dash Desai

I agree I agree.

00:10:45:09 – 00:10:46:06

Steven Schauer

Nice. Yeah.

00:10:46:08 – 00:11:04:07

Dash Desai

But two lovely daughters and once doing medicine then was selected for a PhD even prior to finishing medicine. So that’s, that’s like congratulations. And the younger one wants to do some music. Yeah. No, we are doing those university rounds. So we’re trying to figure out I don’t understand music at all, to be honest.

00:11:04:08 – 00:11:06:21

Dash Desai

It’s that’s an interesting challenge.

00:11:06:23 – 00:11:07:06

Dash Desai

Yeah.

00:11:07:08 – 00:11:30:04

Steven Schauer

Nice. Well, so then it congratulations. about all that. I mean, it’s and it’s. You have one daughter kind of going a scientific route and another daughter going artistic route, I imagine. You know, there’s, a wide, breadth of, things happening in your home as, as they grew up so that they could find their passions and, and go their different directions as well.

00:11:30:04 – 00:11:32:02

Steven Schauer

And that that sounds wonderful.

00:11:32:03 – 00:11:54:03

Dash Desai

Absolutely. And I’m glad you mentioned the word passion, because to me, everything has. And when we talk further, you kind of see why that is so important. And passion and purpose and, and and that’s been my focus, with, with the girls. I just and here’s a funny thing, right. So if you’ve got Indian listeners, they will relate to this.

00:11:54:05 – 00:11:58:20

Dash Desai

Indians are know that it is an old joke. And I used to joke about this.

00:11:58:22 – 00:11:59:06

Steven Schauer

Yeah.

00:11:59:07 – 00:12:17:02

Dash Desai

You didn’t. Parents will always push their kids to be either a doctor or an engineer. And usually you have one of these, and. But these little specific kids and everything. But as it would happen, one of my daughters has become a doctor. I was like, no, please don’t.

00:12:17:02 – 00:12:20:04

Dash Desai

Oh well, you got this as kids.

00:12:20:06 – 00:12:29:06

Dash Desai

And the younger one, funnily enough, wants to. At this stage it may change, but she wants to become a sound engineer. Would you believe that?

00:12:29:08 – 00:12:30:02

Steven Schauer

Yep, yep.

00:12:30:08 – 00:12:33:18

Dash Desai

Things I joked about. It’s a boomer goes.

00:12:33:20 – 00:12:41:03

Steven Schauer

that’s, you know, we’ll see how it play. Adds up. That’s funny. Yeah. That’s great.

00:12:41:05 – 00:12:41:12

Dash Desai

Yeah.

00:12:41:13 – 00:12:43:13

Dash Desai

Well, well.

00:12:43:15 – 00:13:06:12

Steven Schauer

So we won’t dig any deeper on the the PR and marketing part of your, your career unless there’s a story there that you want to share. But, if you’re ready to kind of transition in into the, you know, the last, you know, dozen years or so that you, you hinted at being such a critical, part of, of your life to kind of get you where you are.

00:13:06:17 – 00:13:16:04

Steven Schauer

Tell me about that. You know, where where were you? And, you know, 2010, 2012, what was going on in your life that kind of started you on the path that you’re on now?

00:13:16:06 – 00:13:20:12

Dash Desai

Yeah, yeah. And you danced around the actually. So it was 2011.

00:13:20:14 – 00:13:21:11

Steven Schauer

2011. All right.

00:13:21:16 – 00:13:24:23

Dash Desai

Yeah. So you’re but this.

00:13:24:23 – 00:13:41:08

Dash Desai

Was back in. So I was working at IBM, doing some pretty nice projects, I must say, over there. But you come to a, I must have hit my 40s or early 40s or just about late 40s. And I think it’s the midlife crisis when you.

00:13:41:08 – 00:13:41:19

Steven Schauer

Sure.

00:13:41:23 – 00:14:04:01

Dash Desai

Only wake up one day. Only a thing. Why am I even going to work? as in, paying the mortgage could not have been inspiring these and again. And but that’s. I think that’s the earliest one that I can pinpoint from, if you think of a pivotal moment, that was that one morning when I must have woken up.

00:14:04:03 – 00:14:40:04

Dash Desai

but but if I trace back, some of these stories actually go even further back. even when I was 15 and 16, when I was thinking of certain social issues or certain issues, and right now is and somebody else asked me, one of the changemakers in the, cooperative asked me recently, and I said, I don’t know, to be honest, as I’m trying to trace back what the first pivot was, but but the one that certainly is a it’s very distinct is when I was at IBM and I said, I don’t want to just turn up to work.

00:14:40:09 – 00:15:07:15

Dash Desai

I love technology, and IBM gave me a lot of that. Yeah, but that’s not somehow fulfilling. And I need to do something, something better, something that is more exciting, more purposeful. And yeah, that’s where the journey started is back in 2011. And one of the things Steve and I kind of observed was IBM is a great place. It’s a great bunch of people all under one roof.

00:15:07:17 – 00:15:36:19

Dash Desai

And I was observing. Then I said, what is IBM at the end of it? It’s just a collection of good bunch of people who work together. Yeah. And it’s all centralized and, I was in IBM UK and IBM US essentially is the Desaision. Sure, sure. And people who are really at that other end don’t even know who that was or didn’t know that was such a wouldn’t feel personal.

00:15:36:23 – 00:16:01:22

Dash Desai

You just feel like a number. So could I do something which actually just brought a good bunch of people together. They had fun in small numbers and that, funnily enough, became the inspiration for, my company name, which is small outside.com. So it was like, can it be small from the outside? But if you had a great bunch of people, small groups, they can achieve massive things.

00:16:01:22 – 00:16:23:22

Dash Desai

So that was the culmination of the thought process. And I did what I did for to understand well, understood well at that point, which was technology and had a good bunch of people, IBM was I was in the consultancy thing, by the way. and I said, yeah, we could just gather together and do some consulting together. We can have fun.

00:16:23:22 – 00:16:44:19

Dash Desai

We can make some money. Yeah. But I still remember the slide because it is on my list of things to do is to fish out the slide deck back from 2017. And that always had the sliver of, there’s a bit of a pie chart there. And I said 90% of what we earn will go to the professional.

00:16:44:21 – 00:16:47:22

Dash Desai

Something will have to go towards operating the business.

00:16:47:22 – 00:16:50:04

Steven Schauer

So. Sure. Huge overhead. Yeah.

00:16:50:06 – 00:17:11:07

Dash Desai

And but a small sliver will always go to impact. And that’s, that was like something was telling me inside that I need to do this. That all changed by the way. Yeah. Because we tried it. And, consultancy is not a great model, I tell you. and neither does the client benefit nor does the individual, unless you come up with a different model.

00:17:11:09 – 00:17:30:01

Dash Desai

Yeah, but we could treat that. And this was back in 2011. It didn’t start. It started as an idea. Yeah. but we weren’t in the world where they could do these kind of conversations. We were in a world where you could drive across to people, have a course, and meet for a coffee, which was great, but it impacted speed.

00:17:30:03 – 00:18:00:17

Dash Desai

So of course you need people to have conversations saying, is there something broken about the model? Do we need to do something different? And six years later in 2017, I said, I think I’ve had enough conversation. Now it’s time for action. So, in 2017, I started small outside.com properly as as a business. And although I didn’t registered for another two years with this detail, but what we were doing is in London, we would meet people I knew, people they knew.

00:18:00:17 – 00:18:20:19

Dash Desai

So we were gathering and trying to figure out, is there a model where people can collaborate, good people can collaborate, have a good laugh, but be happy doing what they want to do. And that’s that. That’s how we started. This is pre-COVID. We used to meet, go for dinners, go for drinks. but we never actually we managed.

00:18:20:19 – 00:18:38:13

Dash Desai

In fact, in the first week itself, we managed to place a few people and I was like, well, this, this looks like this could work. But we never thought of it as a business model properly. We weren’t that mature, frankly, in in the thought process. But as as time went, we kept pivoting. And then today we are on the 11th pivots, 11 pivots.

00:18:38:13 – 00:18:42:19

Dash Desai

Later this year was one. But among them we.

00:18:42:21 – 00:18:55:16

Steven Schauer

Circle us with that is TCA the acronym what so for for folks. Yeah. So folks listening or watching I know what it is and I’m excited about it, but what what is TCA.

00:18:55:18 – 00:19:09:19

Dash Desai

it’s a change Makers alliance. The change Makers alliance. That’s what TCS stands for. It’s good to have three letter acronyms. So you end up with these things that use TCA though. Yeah. No thanks for that.

00:19:09:21 – 00:19:27:04

Steven Schauer

Yeah. And and you were saying then. So from small outside 11 pivots later 11 kind of iterations and changes and growth and evolution later you landed on where you are now with the Change Makers Alliance TCA. I get that correct.

00:19:27:05 – 00:19:31:15

Dash Desai

You got that right. But then there is one pivotal moment where a shift.

00:19:31:17 – 00:19:33:02

Steven Schauer

Yeah. Tell me about that.

00:19:33:04 – 00:19:57:15

Dash Desai

Yeah. So in in 2017 it was a small sliver going towards impact. And and so Steven that never sat well with me for being on this because the whole reason I quit a well-paying IBM job where there was a career path ahead and all that was because something didn’t sit right with me and that never sat right, even though we said, here’s a selector that would go out.

00:19:57:17 – 00:20:06:10

Dash Desai

So in 2019, I turned it right side up, is how I describe it. So it was the wrong side up earlier. So we said.

00:20:06:10 – 00:20:11:15

Steven Schauer

The the funding model was the was the wrong side up. We needed to change that correctly.

00:20:11:17 – 00:20:33:07

Dash Desai

Yes. So it was like how do you change the conversation to be more impactful? Because if you think of yeah, you could take 1%, 2%, 5%, 10%, doesn’t matter. Well, it just is the old CSR model. You do what you want to do, and then you cut out the check and let somebody else worry about how to solve the world’s problems.

00:20:33:07 – 00:21:03:03

Dash Desai

And, and that, that never sat properly with me, to be honest. So in 2019, we made a conscious Desaision and we said, let’s turn it right side up. And that is how do you create impact in a collaborative environment and then figure out how to make money out of it. So that’s what was pivotal. the reason why small satcom is now getting shifted into my other business which towards technical consultancy.

00:21:03:05 – 00:21:27:17

Dash Desai

So I like the name. So I’m not going to let it go waste. But what we’ve found is although all the ethos around what I was trying to build and we’ll talk in more detail what I’m trying to actually ultimately what I’m getting to. Yeah, it somehow was the name was hindering acceptance. So it always seemed like this this is his baby and it’s his business.

00:21:27:17 – 00:21:53:22

Dash Desai

And just felt like and smells like old business models. And it wasn’t direct. So last year we said, we’ve learned enough. We pivoted enough, but we need to put a commitment in our name because that’s what we were trying to do. Eventually, we were really trying to bring change makers together, so it made perfect sense to call it the Change Makers Alliance.

00:21:54:00 – 00:22:00:21

Dash Desai

So that’s what we are trying to do, bring change makers together so that we can make magic happen. If that happens.

00:22:00:23 – 00:22:25:07

Steven Schauer

It does make sense. And I want to tie in, I think, your personal mission statement, which you shared with me, which I really appreciate because I, I think this is a driving, force of all of that you’ve just described. And what you’re aiming at is your, your personal mission. And so tell me a little bit about what that is.

00:22:25:09 – 00:22:48:15

Steven Schauer

I know what it is, but tell the tell everybody else what it is and tell me what it means to you and why you came up with that. And then maybe from there, we can transition into the change makers, alliance. And how how your personal passion and vision and mission are, you know, kind of driving this change makers alliance, yet you’re, the founder of.

00:22:48:16 – 00:23:07:09

Dash Desai

Yeah. Yeah. So. So maybe if I just spell out the personal mission statement, please. You used to be plastered all over LinkedIn once, all the time, and. Yeah, I’ve kind of it kind of is relegated to a few blog posts somewhere, but, it is really to enable awesome people to achieve awesome outcomes for themselves and the world.

00:23:07:11 – 00:23:10:19

Dash Desai

To me, that just summarizes my personal mission statement.

00:23:10:19 – 00:23:11:15

Steven Schauer

Yeah, I love that.

00:23:11:15 – 00:23:40:14

Dash Desai

Says DCA has its own mission statement. Will get caught. Yeah. As to why did that happen, I think I think mental health at workplace is, matter of acute interest to me. And it’s of interest for many reasons because, and this was when I was saying, if I trace back how far it goes, this was when I was 15 and I wanted to be an architect.

00:23:40:16 – 00:23:52:08

Dash Desai

Think about my squiggly career path. Right. Me at 15 and I thought I should be an architect because I’m good with drawings. I’m not an artist, really, but I like art, and I like to.

00:23:52:09 – 00:23:54:14

Steven Schauer

Call yourself an artist. It’s okay.

00:23:54:16 – 00:23:58:01

Dash Desai

Yeah, yeah. But, yeah.

00:23:58:04 – 00:24:17:07

Dash Desai

probably secretly, actually. But, so, so I wanted to be an architect, and the best guidance I could get is to be in a small village. was zero. There was no, guidance that I got in my career path. And guess what? I turned up for the entrance exam. I had no idea what was expected.

00:24:17:07 – 00:24:40:08

Dash Desai

And then I never got in, and that was the end of my dream. So. But somewhere along the line that left a mark in my mind. It’s like if I was keen on being an architect and if I’d actually become an architect, then that was probably I don’t know whether it was probably aligned to my passion, but that would have been very different.

00:24:40:08 – 00:25:19:16

Dash Desai

My story would have been very different today, as in, I know I stumbled upon technology just because advertising and marketing was not logical enough for me. Yeah, but I did find my passion eventually and ever since the day, even back in 1998 99, I think it was 98, I made a Desaision. I’ve been a happy man and I felt, how do we enable this among people where they find the output was their passion, and when they find it, that’s when they start thinking of something bigger and create better outcomes.

00:25:19:16 – 00:25:41:00

Dash Desai

So that’s how far it goes. And linking back to the mental health issues. And one of the this this is another strange thing I found if you’ve been to India, I’m sure it’s a story in many other countries, but quite often if you go into government department, you will often see, and I’m not trying to criticize the government employees in India.

00:25:41:00 – 00:26:11:08

Dash Desai

They’re really good. Some of them, some of them, the jury’s out, I guess, but it’s sure, it’s, what you find is people go get into jobs because they need a job, and then the passion doesn’t exist in the work. The sun says that the byproduct of all that is an unhappy person spending the next 50,000 hours of their life doing something, whether it’s they don’t enjoy.

00:26:11:10 – 00:26:30:20

Dash Desai

And the ramifications of that are so wide. Because if you are not happy at work, and work is an essential thing in a modern economy, not being working right, the ramifications are many because it then reflects on the family life. It reflects on your relationship with your wife, with children, and that term has a physical health.

00:26:30:22 – 00:26:32:01

Steven Schauer

Yeah, yeah.

00:26:32:03 – 00:26:57:06

Dash Desai

Like me. That was what I was kind of very, I used to deeply think about this, and I still do. As to how do I enable people to find their awesomeness? Because everyone is awesome, which is why it’s like, awesome people are awesome. Yeah, yeah. But so how do you firstly help people discover the awesomeness? And that awesomeness comes when you discover your purpose.

00:26:57:06 – 00:27:02:16

Dash Desai

If you don’t have a purpose. But everyone’s got a purpose, but most people don’t discover it.

00:27:02:16 – 00:27:13:18

Steven Schauer

Yeah, haven’t haven’t done that kind of discovery process to give themselves the space and time to to figure that out. Because, yeah, we’re just told to move on to the next thing, get a job.

00:27:13:20 – 00:27:14:08

Dash Desai

Yeah.

00:27:14:10 – 00:27:28:15

Steven Schauer

You do that. You don’t really ever pause long enough to to discover that. And yeah, I’ve experienced that myself. It’s taken me a while to get to this passion where it’s like, that’s what I really want to do, and let me go try that and so I can appreciate it.

00:27:28:15 – 00:27:50:02

Dash Desai

I look, Covid is now history. Most people have forgotten about Covid, but that was the pause that you’re referring to for many. Absolutely, absolutely. So but but yeah, so that’s how far it goes and that’s how to because to me, if we solve this, if we can connect people with their inner passion and purpose, they will be happy.

00:27:50:04 – 00:28:10:11

Dash Desai

The next generation will be happy. The work they do. If you look at workplace churn, for example, or the unhappiness mental health issues at work, they happen because people are either in the wrong jobs or they are in the right jobs, but are being managed by the wrong managers. So you should have all kinds of scenarios. So how do you simplify it?

00:28:10:11 – 00:28:27:10

Dash Desai

And if you can connect people with a purpose and once they discover it, it’s like with Mike Lee and said, I don’t know if it was him who said it or it’s attributed to him, but you born twice the day you were born in the day you discover your purpose. So it to me, that is what drives me.

00:28:27:10 – 00:28:57:22

Dash Desai

So we are we are looking at a solution called spark AI, which is helping you discover your inner spark. Because once you can and artificial intelligence is a great way to discover it. if you if you chatted with ChatGPT enough, you will discover it yourself, funnily enough. But but how do you actually construct it says that people can connect with their inner purpose, and once they’ve connected, the next thing that needs to be done is connect them with others who share the same spark.

00:28:58:00 – 00:29:19:03

Dash Desai

And not just others, but even products and services. Because there are products and services that are designed for people of a certain type. So how do you discover help people discover themselves, but then discover others and other things that can help them? So so that’s that’s an exciting possibility that we’re working on with this book. digressed a bit, Steven.

00:29:19:03 – 00:29:19:16

Dash Desai

I didn’t know.

00:29:19:16 – 00:29:44:12

Steven Schauer

That was that was wonderful. And I, I love the idea you just hit on. And maybe we can dive just briefly into this a little bit because it was a like, I never really picked up on this thought before, but using AI to find your purpose, having, you know, chat conversations with with me and one of the many different AI products that are out there.

00:29:44:14 – 00:30:06:08

Steven Schauer

and in the process of that, maybe discovering what your, your passion is, you know, there’s there’s so much kind of potential fear and apprehension about, you know, AI is going to take our jobs and AI is going to, you know, become our masters and all kinds of, you know, horror stories out there about, the, the potential, future of AI.

00:30:06:08 – 00:30:27:03

Steven Schauer

But what you just hit on was something kind of hopeful that I could be this wonderful tool to help individuals. Tell me a little bit more about that idea before, because it just struck me as like, oh, wow, that’s a that’s a fascinating take on an AI. So yeah, tell me a little bit more about that. And then, definitely, obviously want to transition back into the changemakers alliance.

00:30:27:03 – 00:30:32:23

Steven Schauer

So that was just something I don’t want to let that go, because that was just such an interesting thought you threw out there.

00:30:33:01 – 00:30:35:14

Dash Desai

So. Yeah. So,

00:30:35:16 – 00:31:02:13

Dash Desai

This funding, our thoughts connect, isn’t it? Because, spark is essentially committed to my mission, which is to enable awesome people to achieve awesome outcomes for themselves and the world, which is very important here. Yeah. So it’s it’s about this actually is, at its infancy. I launched it on my daughter’s birthday this year. 17th April, because it’s something which I’ve been working with, in the back of my mind for a long time.

00:31:02:13 – 00:31:25:13

Dash Desai

And I thought, what better gift to give my daughter than to start an initiative? It’s a very early stage right now, but the way we envision it is we have an interesting problem. If you look at the number of factors that are at play right now, you’ve got a generation like us all, but never exposed to AI or most people.

00:31:25:15 – 00:31:45:07

Dash Desai

Most people technology field. You probably had some early view of it, but our generation is starting to kind of we’ve got the experience, but we are becoming a bit crusty. Fleming on this. The younger generation is a lot more energetic and I’m.

00:31:45:07 – 00:31:47:13

Steven Schauer

Not offended by that at all.

00:31:47:15 – 00:31:51:12

Dash Desai

I think. Yeah. So,

00:31:51:14 – 00:31:56:11

Dash Desai

That is one problem, but that but we still have a few good years left in our view of the.

00:31:56:12 – 00:31:58:21

Steven Schauer

So we hope so. Absolutely.

00:31:58:23 – 00:32:00:02

Dash Desai

Because there is this whole.

00:32:00:02 – 00:32:22:07

Dash Desai

Generation of us who is going to be dinosaurs pretty soon. If we don’t catch up, the younger generation will be fine because they are native to this. As in right? Right. They will just teens particularly. We just sailed through this. But what is great where we are is we got the experience and we just need to make that quick transition across into right.

00:32:22:09 – 00:32:44:03

Dash Desai

Okay, now I understand this better so I can help you with that. But to me that was also an important thing. As I speak to somehow I, I use the AI all the time as not not to like blogs and online. Bailey. Right. I love writing myself, but yeah, so I use the AI to think sometimes and it’s like like give me, give me a different perspective to what I already have.

00:32:44:03 – 00:33:10:05

Dash Desai

Because what I have, I know and and absolutely what you need is and I keep telling to be telling people, look, if you don’t update yourself, you will be outdated soon. So so that’s an important problem to solve. Now that’s one aspect of sparking AI. So how do you enable people to learn? I of course the core is how do you connect people with their passions and then connect people with other passionate people?

00:33:10:07 – 00:33:34:11

Dash Desai

Questions. but I thought that’s the problem to solve, which is how do you help people transition into AI? So that’s one aspect. The other one was, the actual solution, which actually links back to the Changemakers Alliance. everything is kind of interconnected. Sure. We said we would do, open source version. So we will bring people together.

00:33:34:11 – 00:33:55:12

Dash Desai

So right now you can come in to discord community, and you’ll see a few people there. At the moment, everyone’s just waving to each other. If you’re familiar with discord, you get this little, yeah, watching emoji, whatever they’re called. And that’s that’s all it is there. Right. But the way it’s going to pan out is the building a community together where I love communities.

00:33:55:12 – 00:34:21:07

Dash Desai

And you’ll see that further down in the chat. But we want to bring people together who want to learn. Hey, want to experiment, want to play with that, want to actually do stuff. And even technology people who are sitting with old technology and no need to upskilling. Yeah. So so there’s a whole collection of people who can come together, learn the AI, but build it as well.

00:34:21:07 – 00:34:47:02

Dash Desai

And that’s the important bit, which is why it is going to be open source. And when they build it, the solution will only focus on this thing, which is connect people within the purpose and then with other humans and services. But the applications of these are particularly wide because if you have a solution like this, the next thing you can do is solve the mental health problem that I was talking at workplace because.

00:34:47:02 – 00:35:11:14

Dash Desai

Sure. And we experimented. We used some Google, APIs and some services that they had built to solve this problem. How do you connect people with workplace? And if you if you look at workplaces today, it’s still very prevalent. It’s like it’s a skill match. They say, oh, I need someone with these skills. Someone looks at the CV.

00:35:11:14 – 00:35:37:01

Dash Desai

Yes, I found the matching word there for this person. Maybe a good fit, but they don’t go beyond that. Yeah, some good organizations do. But that’s the next layer. We are trying to get to, which is if we could use this Poggio to then connect you with organizations that share. Every organization has a philosophy in the culture. So spark yeah should be able to do that match.

00:35:37:01 – 00:36:02:20

Dash Desai

That’s the next level of match. Sure. And then you how big your organization is, your immediate team and your manager or your organization. Rest of them don’t matter. So how do you do people culture match people, team match and all of those things. The applications of spark are many, but we are starting with connecting changemakers with other changemakers.

00:36:02:20 – 00:36:26:17

Dash Desai

Initially. But the applications are many because that then start solving the problem is if people are matched well yeah. to the local cultures and all, you get this happy place where people feel more driven to do good work. They belong world. Yeah. And they are happier and yeah, yeah. So come full circle back to you.

00:36:26:17 – 00:36:52:11

Steven Schauer

You have. So thanks for that little, little side trip there in the spark. I but I do believe that kind of brings you then back to the changemakers Alliance and so great transition. Now tell me a bit more about that and explain what it is, help people understand and, yeah. So continue on with the Changemakers Alliance.

00:36:52:13 – 00:37:16:00

Dash Desai

It’s a good Segway, actually, because spark is essentially what I was visualizing. I think back in 2017, 2018, which is we used to call it an X engine at that point. And I just like geeky things. So I said, okay, and I’m not going to spell connects right. And an X engine just sounds cool. But that’s what we are doing through the changemakers AI.

00:37:16:03 – 00:37:46:04

Dash Desai

So all we are doing is really using manual processes. If I’m being honest right now, as in, that’s not my vision. It’s a very decentralized, autonomous way of connecting people and, expediting change and connect with people. Really. But what we’ve got is, as as the name says, as it says on the tin, it is an alliance between change makers and at the moment, what we’re really doing is focusing on.

00:37:46:04 – 00:38:08:06

Dash Desai

So people coming to our, we, we tried various solutions, but WhatsApp seems to work. You are part of it. Now let’s think about it now itself. and it’s in everyone’s pockets. So we’ve tried several solutions that WhatsApp works. So we said, let’s stick to what works for people. But what we are doing there is really working with change makers, bringing them in.

00:38:08:06 – 00:38:30:18

Dash Desai

But it’s not for anyone and everyone. We do a good amount of vetting before someone comes in because there are lots of change making communities around, but what we see is they die pretty quickly because people are disengaged or someone comes in, they can’t connect. the conversations are not relevant to them, so they disappear or they are shy.

00:38:30:18 – 00:38:53:07

Dash Desai

They don’t feel encouraged to participate. So. So at the at the front of Change Makers Alliance is a very simple concept called the change with Global change makers directory. And again that’s also trying to solve a simple problem, which is as a change maker yourself, you just for these podcasts, you’re probably trying to reach out other change makers.

00:38:53:09 – 00:39:01:04

Dash Desai

But look at how many LinkedIn profiles you have to scan through before you say, oh, I think I want to invite this connects.

00:39:01:04 – 00:39:21:19

Steven Schauer

Efforts and sure, find a change maker real quick. Just so it’s in the context of of your vision for this, so that folks listening or watching can can better understand that term, because it could mean a number of different things to a number of different people. So in the context of your story what is a changemaker.

00:39:21:21 – 00:39:54:17

Dash Desai

Yeah. So so changemaker is definitely not a change management professional as most people think it is. changemaker is the simple definition I think I spoke of Foundation first propose this work many many years pivot many many years back. And it’s essentially someone who looks at a social, issue, so to say they sees that there is something that could be done better, but doesn’t just stop at that, but takes action towards that.

00:39:54:19 – 00:40:18:07

Dash Desai

So bias for action is absolutely, absolutely critical. But that’s what a changemaker is. Now sometimes we get and we’ll come back to the global changemakers directory. And people say oh I don’t feel like I’m a changemaker. That’s like no. Because every changemaker starts their journey by first spotting that there is an issue, that it’s a new way of thinking.

00:40:18:09 – 00:40:33:12

Dash Desai

so so it doesn’t have to be someone like, if you want can’t pronounce his surname. But the Patagonia man doesn’t have to be someone who’s achieved that level of achievement. That’s not his. And he’s a changemaker as well.

00:40:33:12 – 00:40:55:00

Steven Schauer

Yeah. Well even he started out with an idea for a clothing company that was right. So so even he started out small before it became what it is. So your idea is you don’t know. One starts, you know, from the top of the Changemaker Hill, if you will. Everybody starts with that inner doubt. And just.

00:40:55:02 – 00:40:56:07

Dash Desai

This year.

00:40:56:09 – 00:41:01:23

Steven Schauer

I see something that’s wrong in the world. And I want to do something to make the world a better place.

00:41:02:01 – 00:41:26:00

Dash Desai

Yeah, yeah. And and it doesn’t have to be global. Scary. You don’t have. Sure. As in, if you ask me, Steve Jobs was a change maker. Inter interestingly. But, you don’t have to be Steve Jobs. You could be just fixing your local area. It may be that some patch of ground is not green enough, and you Desaide that that has an impact on whatever for whatever reasons.

00:41:26:00 – 00:41:46:13

Dash Desai

And you say, I’m going to make that green. You ought to change, make perfect, or you’re redefining the rules of the world. You’re changing. It doesn’t matter what scale you are on, right? You are a change maker. If you are taking action. And that bias for action is super important here. Perfect. That’s what we are doing and gathering people for change makers together.

00:41:46:15 – 00:42:11:10

Dash Desai

And the reason we are doing it, and the whole vetting process and all, is simply to make sure that the right people are coming together. It’s having a community where people just can’t connect with these. It is pointless in my opinion, but it also addresses the problem I was describing, which is you have to go through 3000 LinkedIn profiles before you discover one, that you say, oh yeah, this person is a changemakers or whatever you’re trying to find.

00:42:11:12 – 00:42:34:12

Dash Desai

Sure, you’re trying to simplify that because I’ve seen a person this is seven years to seven years in now from the first germination of small outsider DC, and I’ve gone through the pain that I have desperately wanted to connect with good people, but it drains you. So we are trying to get to a culture of shameless networking, and that’s important.

00:42:34:14 – 00:42:38:03

Steven Schauer

I like that, yeah, I was a shameless networking.

00:42:38:05 – 00:42:58:14

Dash Desai

Absolutely. As an we people connect with each other. Of course we connect with these for a laugh, to feel good, all those. But there’s always something else that we are trying to do. It will not be. We are trying to steal each other’s money. Sometimes it may be, look, let’s just do something together. And if you don’t need to go through the pleasantries, you can.

00:42:58:15 – 00:43:17:11

Dash Desai

You should be able to get straight to the point and say, look, that’s what I want to do. Yeah. Would you be interested? Of course. With integrity, of course. But that’s what the culture we are trying to build within this community. But the other problem we are trying to solve is the people coming into the changemakers or coming into the community.

00:43:17:13 – 00:43:44:22

Dash Desai

They need to be showcased out as well, because a lot of changemakers I come across have a bright idea, or they spot the problem, they have an idea and dig the action. But more often than not, change making is not seen as lucrative by people, so therefore they don’t invest in it. More often than not, change makers see things which are so alien to people who don’t understand it, and they don’t feel heard.

00:43:44:22 – 00:44:12:18

Dash Desai

They feel ridiculed. They don’t feel. They just can’t get their idea off the ground and that’s a problem. That’s an important problem to solve. So we’ve summed it up Changemakers Alliance in three words, which is showcase, connect and support. So that’s all we are really doing. So we bring changemakers together, showcase them, and there are various services that we are building to showcase changemakers, their passion, their journey and their problems as well.

00:44:12:19 – 00:44:51:10

Dash Desai

but again, using open models where people learn from each other. So we’ve got concept called front row. The front row is very different. We’ve we’ve tried this and we will start implementing and rolling out and it’ll be great for you, Steven, to come in front row one day and. Sure. But it’s it’s a collection of services a podcast may happen that in front of the essentially the idea is the change maker is on the stage and the audience is all on the front row, but they are the ones who are kind of guiding and directing, being honest, because sometimes giving that honest critique is as valuable as giving a hand of support.

00:44:51:10 – 00:44:52:01

Dash Desai

So of.

00:44:52:01 – 00:44:52:16

Steven Schauer

Course.

00:44:52:18 – 00:45:17:11

Dash Desai

It’s that’s so. But Front Row is just one example of many global change. makers directory is another one, which is a very light implementation right now. we’d love to see you on the GCD profile with your group front, because again, it’s an effort to showcase the Steven’s doings to sustain this. How do I make the world know that that’s what he’s working on.

00:45:17:13 – 00:45:44:04

Dash Desai

But but that’s that’s what we are doing. So showcase connect and support. Connecting is important. So we are doing that through upcoming Netty. So I don’t know if your listeners are familiar with the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. there are 17 of them, and they all focus on real world important issues, like zero hunger, no poverty or climate action.

00:45:44:06 – 00:46:10:21

Dash Desai

And and those who are great inspirations. Everything I’ve done in the last seven years has, I wouldn’t say seven, five, because it was about five years back. I stumbled upon the UN SDGs and I said, oh, this has just given me a language that I was looking for. Yeah, it’s it’s baked into our community. So we’ve got 17 sustainable development goals, focus groups and we bring people together on that shared passion.

00:46:10:21 – 00:46:14:06

Dash Desai

So you can see the spark concept, something.

00:46:14:09 – 00:46:39:03

Steven Schauer

Connect with the group that is your your passion and for the listeners and watchers out there, if you’re not familiar with the 17, goals that Dash is talking about, they really do cover just about every aspect of human existence. on, on on Earth. And I stumbled upon them in the class with you, at Oxford, about two years ago.

00:46:39:03 – 00:47:18:00

Steven Schauer

That’s where I first learned of them. And they were really the inspiration for the show. That’s why, you know, when I talk about stories sustain us, we’re going to be talking about everything under the umbrella of sustainability. It’s really inspired by those 17 goals. We’re going to be talking about all those things on the show. So I appreciate how you’re connecting that, into your changemakers alliance and giving people those avenues because it really whatever your passion is for, you know, taking action to make the world a better place, one of those 17 goals, you will find a fit, I think in my interpretation of it.

00:47:18:02 – 00:47:42:06

Dash Desai

Yeah. And then you’re more likely to find a fit with more than one. And that’s the nature. Or is that all. Absolutely. And so yeah. So yeah I would encourage your listeners isn’t it’s slowly becoming a bit more known as and back in 2015 when I first stumbled upon that, it was interesting because I saw something I said, I can relate to this.

00:47:42:06 – 00:48:18:13

Dash Desai

I still remember creating a Facebook post which has, the SDC logo on the side and yeah, a visual behind it. The artist in me was coming out adding, but, but, but what I’m really trying to get to is the alignment, which is the language that it provides, is so beautiful. And so if you’re listeners think that may be, a signaling of change making that is starting to take birth in them, or they’ve already discovered that they are okay, strongly encourage them to go to, just put those words, the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals and suddenly discover this language, which is really good.

00:48:18:15 – 00:48:43:23

Dash Desai

but but we are using that actively in terms of gathering people to support is important is relevance of networking and relevance of conversation. And that’s what the language enables us. So with a group like it’s birds of a feather fly together, and that’s what we are essentially doing for those groups. But that’s just the starting point. And I don’t know how much time, Steven, we’ve got on this session to talk.

00:48:44:01 – 00:48:47:01

Dash Desai

I can talk in the cows come home frankly. Okay.

00:48:47:03 – 00:49:10:08

Steven Schauer

Yeah, well we are we are nearing a good transition point here to to give you the floor to kind of do a call to action. You know what? For folks who’ve listened to us, you know, up into this point and are inspired by what you’re sharing and, and, you know, have that spark of a change maker in them that, that you’ve described.

00:49:10:10 – 00:49:27:17

Steven Schauer

what do you want them to do? What action do you want them to take? you know, what would you, call on people who’ve been listening to this, to do after we hit done today and they’re now ready to go do something. What do you want them to do?

00:49:27:19 – 00:49:31:00

Dash Desai

the word there is action. Just take action. That’s it.

00:49:31:02 – 00:49:32:18

Dash Desai

So that it’s like, of.

00:49:32:18 – 00:49:53:22

Dash Desai

Course I can talk a bit about how we can support that action in the moment, but, really, I would strongly encourage if if you are stuck with, and this again connects back to finding your purpose and finding happiness in whatever work you’re doing. Right. And also to see, if if something’s germinating, don’t let it die.

00:49:53:22 – 00:50:19:17

Dash Desai

Just go and take the action. Speak to people there are some great people around, as in coming to the Change Makers Alliance community and need some people because that’s settling, that’s starting to germinate, really needs watering. It needs that fertilizer. It needs that food. Yeah. So I would say get into conversations. I was there in 2011. I didn’t even recognize the word changemaker then.

00:50:19:19 – 00:50:33:09

Dash Desai

So I would say the call to action is for your listeners to actually go on and go on that discovery. And if you’re asking me what’s the call to action from things that we do and how we can support really.

00:50:33:09 – 00:50:42:16

Steven Schauer

Just spoken to to get involved with you or, you know, try to join the Changemakers Alliance or see more, learn more about what you’re doing well, what can what can they do?

00:50:42:18 – 00:51:04:09

Dash Desai

Oh, yeah. No, absolutely. It’s very easy, to remember. So, if your listeners want to join the community, just simply reach out. go to go to our website. They’ve the change.org. So that to me that kind of describes what we are trying to do. We are all trying to pave the change for a better future.

00:51:04:11 – 00:51:26:09

Dash Desai

And so yeah, go to pave the change.org/join or just go to the homepage and there will be a join button. at the moment it’s all on WhatsApp. So if you hit the join button, you’ll come into the WhatsApp community and of course you’ll go through the general vetting checks, things that are mentioned. but beyond that, we’re there to help you and support you in your journey.

00:51:26:09 – 00:51:52:19

Dash Desai

So that’s, to me, the important message is the other way around. It’s not, we would love to have you, but we want you to act on what you have discovered. So that’s really the call to action that would say, the other one, maybe soon. Just to kind of clarify to your listeners as well, for what we are for because was change making comes in so many shapes, sizes and forms.

00:51:52:20 – 00:52:17:12

Dash Desai

So it’s important I clarify that we are coming at it from so, so, so, maybe if we are to distill it down to mission statements and vision statements and to me these are not sentences. They have to live. And that’s what we are living right now. Yeah, but our vision is, so, so via focusing not just on the nice, the feel good factors of change making all.

00:52:17:12 – 00:52:53:06

Dash Desai

Yeah, I did this and I feel good that we are working on redefining how the work and how we, we are redefining economic activities. So it’s not just really feel good fuzzy, aspects of change making. This is hard core. How do you actually survive and take your kids on a holiday? Expensive holidays and go to good restaurants and do all those things, buy good cars, all those good things that you want to do, which is where sustainability sucks, comes back into your starting point of.

00:52:53:08 – 00:52:54:19

Steven Schauer

Yeah, come to the circle.

00:52:55:01 – 00:53:17:01

Dash Desai

Yes. But, it’s because sustainability sucks. Yeah. If you look at people who are focusing, they are doing it because they don’t care about money. but they, they, they draw the short straw. And what I really want to encourage your listeners to this is change their perspective on this, because you you’re not drawing a short straw if you do it properly.

00:53:17:03 – 00:53:45:15

Dash Desai

And that’s our focus. So our vision for the world is and it won’t happen in my lifetime. I know that. But we can start somewhere. Is every business a force for good? So that’s our vision for the world. Yeah. And the way we can. And there’s a reason hasn’t we learned it. it was very well articulated in our course, if you recall, I do this is are both the creators of unsustainability, but they actually hold the power to make the world sustainable.

00:53:45:15 – 00:54:13:21

Dash Desai

So so to me that’s an important focus area. And we are specifically looking at impact entrepreneurship and conscious consumerism. So those two aspects again are important because if we have good impact entrepreneurship, it creates a top down effect within organizations and consumers chain. Because we have humans we keep consuming. But if people at the top start making the right Desaisions, yes, you have more sustainable products, services, action, everything.

00:54:13:21 – 00:54:34:18

Dash Desai

But the other side is equally true, which is conscious consumerism because that’s a bottom up push if you like. When consumers become conscious about their consuming habits, they create an upward pressure on the businesses to do the right things. And this all kind of ties back to, every business, a force for good. So so I just wanted to clarify that.

00:54:34:18 – 00:54:53:10

Dash Desai

And then this small interchange making. But we’ve got a very niche, narrow focus, which is don’t please do it, without looking after their own self. Make sure your activities create economic returns for you, but also help the world. So it’s a very different.

00:54:53:12 – 00:55:23:18

Steven Schauer

That’s a a giant vision changing capitalism to be more purpose driven and more for good, as opposed to just for the bottom line. But you know, tying those things in together because they can go hand-in-hand. They can exist together. They you don’t have to be a force for good and end up, you know, scraping around for your own meals and your own, ability to survive because you’ve sacrificed everything for the greater good.

00:55:23:18 – 00:55:45:22

Steven Schauer

There is a balance there. If we change our economic systems and our business models to where good works can produce income for you, but, you know, good, and results for your community and ultimately the globe that we all share. So I love that. I love the drive that your vision is of every business, a force for good.

00:55:45:22 – 00:55:52:03

Steven Schauer

That that’s that’s really something that that I can get behind. And I hope the listeners can get behind that as well too.

00:55:52:05 – 00:56:14:10

Dash Desai

Yeah, yeah. And yeah. As in in, in my thought process I guess is I was telling, the change makers in our studio where we actually support, change makers with, with hands on support, with their ventures, and, selling them. So we were kind of trying to make sense and we so how do we reward people who are participating in this journey?

00:56:14:10 – 00:56:36:14

Dash Desai

Because essentially we’re building a cooperative. So it’s a democratically controlled. The TCA is not my business. It is something that I conceived, but it is Democrat. It’s a cooperative model familiar with that. and it’s a co owned and democratically controlled enterprise. That’s what we are building. But the question was, how do we reward people who are participating even in the building of TCA?

00:56:36:16 – 00:57:00:21

Dash Desai

Yeah. And my view is they have to be paid at the 90th percentile. That’s the that’s what we should be working to. Because why should we ask change makers to skimp, when they should be enjoying life as well? So. So, yeah, I do want to encourage change makers to shift that mindset on their to not give up on the their, creature comforts.

00:57:00:23 – 00:57:06:07

Dash Desai

but do the creature comforts and make the change and just one one small correction, if I may, is.

00:57:06:12 – 00:57:07:02

Steven Schauer

Sure.

00:57:07:04 – 00:57:12:17

Dash Desai

We are not changing capitalism. We are just transforming it. I like this better.

00:57:12:18 – 00:57:13:11

Steven Schauer

Choice of words.

00:57:13:11 – 00:57:25:23

Dash Desai

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and we just want. And I think you touched on the word bottom line. And we are focusing on triple bottom line ventures and businesses versus single bottom line because. Absolutely.

00:57:26:01 – 00:57:26:15

Steven Schauer

Yeah.

00:57:26:17 – 00:57:26:22

Dash Desai

Yeah.

00:57:26:22 – 00:57:39:07

Steven Schauer

But these lines of people planet profit is the triple bottom line model where you’re looking at all, aspects, not just the profit aspect, but the people on the planet all coming together.

00:57:39:09 – 00:57:40:09

Dash Desai

Is the the triple.

00:57:40:09 – 00:57:42:04

Steven Schauer

Bottom line model that you’re looking at.

00:57:42:06 – 00:58:04:13

Dash Desai

And more importantly, people in planet coming Before profit, which is very deliberate. But when we don’t like the word profit, so we use prosperity. So we call it people planet prosperity. Perfect. But, but that those are the models and those are the kind of ideas with which we are working. And we are doing it with human and technology aspects coming together.

00:58:04:13 – 00:58:17:23

Dash Desai

So there’s a lot of tech that is happening behind the scenes as well, but that’s probably going to be too detailed for your audience on the the day another time. Okay. If you’ve got any questions, do you or more than happy to field. Yeah.

00:58:18:01 – 00:58:42:14

Steven Schauer

I want to end each show with three questions. so a lot of times these topics are, heavy topics. They, you know, talking about, you know, climate change and mental health issues and other things can be kind of heavy. And, you know, this, this particular conversation, I think you’ve, infused with a lot of inspiration and, and energy.

00:58:42:14 – 00:59:11:20

Steven Schauer

But I want to end, by asking you three questions about hope. so hope is, you know, our capability to envision a better future and, our own ability to help create that. So it’s something that we have some agency in making a better future. So three quick questions. Real quick answers. Don’t you know, just just your your first reaction to these three quick questions.

00:59:11:22 – 00:59:23:03

Steven Schauer

First question is, what is your vision for a better future, your personal, professional or global whatever comes to mind? What’s your vision for a better future?

00:59:23:05 – 00:59:25:19

Dash Desai

Every business force for good.

00:59:25:21 – 00:59:32:03

Steven Schauer

Why is that? I think we know the answer because we just talked about that. But why is that? Your vision?

00:59:32:05 – 00:59:53:01

Dash Desai

well, like I explained earlier to me, if everyone’s doing the right things and then they start with the business, it has an impact on the people who work there. It has impact on the actions the business takes, the environmental footprint, and it all kind of ties back together, which is why it’s so pivotal, to me.

00:59:53:01 – 00:59:56:05

Dash Desai

And, I don’t know if I’m answering a question right now. Yes.

00:59:56:07 – 00:59:57:16

Steven Schauer

You are perfect.

00:59:57:18 – 01:00:09:14

Dash Desai

Yeah. To me, that to me is the nub of it. if we can crack that somehow everything kind of starts falling in place in my little world. By the way, there are so many ways to create change.

01:00:09:16 – 01:00:16:17

Steven Schauer

So the last question. Now imagine your future vision has come to be.

01:00:16:18 – 01:00:17:06

Dash Desai

Yeah.

01:00:17:08 – 01:00:20:23

Steven Schauer

How do you feel right now?

01:00:21:01 – 01:00:44:12

Dash Desai

just as happy as I am today. Because I’m enjoying what I’m doing today. And, I’m happy when I achieve that as well. So it’s no difference. frankly, if I wasn’t enjoying what I was doing, I’ve been doing this, I put something like 80 hours a week, towards this more recently, also providing consultancy, in my technology field.

01:00:44:12 – 01:01:10:00

Dash Desai

But, even in spite of that, I’m still working 40 hours a week. So that’s standard day for like, so you can imagine I’m having a lot of fun, so I’m not going to stop on that. it’s interesting though, hopefully I’ve answered your question with your, question. The three questions were funding ones. And maybe given if your audience is still listening to this at this point and they’ve come to the three questions, I’ve got my three questions.

01:01:10:02 – 01:01:31:21

Dash Desai

I wouldn’t put you on sports team because you’re not my podcast. but what we do is especially in front row, we I call it the genie wishes. So if a genie came out of the lamp or make, what would be the are three wishes, and I meticulously write it down and people say, oh, this is what I want to do.

01:01:31:21 – 01:01:34:20

Dash Desai

And to me, these are the problems to solve because they are.

01:01:34:20 – 01:01:35:15

Steven Schauer

Absolutely.

01:01:35:19 – 01:01:53:10

Dash Desai

patterns that start emerging there. And you say that, okay, they need funding. So we’ve been working on something called Impact Funding Bridge, which will connect where the money is, which requires good governance and where the people are who want the money to get those ideas off the ground. So, so, so that came out of those genie wishes.

01:01:53:10 – 01:02:14:19

Dash Desai

So I would encourage your, your audience to, if they’ve got even this little seedling of, change making growing in them or they are advance change makers. Just to think of those three genie wishes when they reach out to me and, it will help me immensely because the genie wishes are more likely to be wishes somebody else.

01:02:14:21 – 01:02:26:20

Dash Desai

And at some point. Steven, I would like to know your three wishes. So it would be interesting to hear what I can guess what some of them may be, but, would be good to have offline. Check on that and see how I can.

01:02:26:22 – 01:02:49:14

Steven Schauer

I look forward to doing that with you. And, with that, I’ll, thank you for your time. Thank you so much for for being a changemaker yourself and sharing your passion and vision, with me and the audience. And we’ll put in the show notes, connections to pave the Change.org. So folks who are listening and want to get in touch with you, please go to the show notes.

01:02:49:15 – 01:02:59:15

Steven Schauer

but with that, I will say thank you. And I’m immensely grateful for your time. So we will, end here. So, everybody, take care, and thank you, too.

01:02:59:17 – 01:03:12:13

Dash Desai

Yeah. And thanks again for this. You’re doing some amazing work. I know you are at the start of the journey, but I want to be there and support you through the journey as well, because you’re doing, something which is an extension of sustainability success, essentially.

01:03:12:15 – 01:03:13:10

Dash Desai

It’s so.

01:03:13:12 – 01:03:26:13

Dash Desai

So to me, it’s in my interest to support you in succeeding on this journey. thanks for this little opportunity to even share the words about what we are trying to do through the Changemakers Alliance. So thank you so much.

01:03:26:15 – 01:03:28:06

Steven Schauer

Thank you.

01:03:28:08 – 01:03:30:06

Dash Desai

Cheers.

01:03:31:04 – 01:03:56:08

Steven Schauer

Well. All right. We’ve reached the end of episode number two of story Sustain us. I want to thank Dash Desai for joining me today, and I’m really grateful. He highlighted the UN’s 17 Sustainable Development Goals or SDGs. As I mentioned, this podcast stems from my time taking a University of Oxford course about the future of sustainable business, which is also where I happened to meet Dash and I first learned about the SDGs.

01:03:56:10 – 01:04:27:12

Steven Schauer

I was inspired to create this show after learning about the SDGs and by noted climate scientist Katharine Hayhoe, who states that the most important thing we can do to fight climate change is to talk about it. So I created this show where we share stories about sustainability. Now, regarding the current state of the SDGs, if you’re unaware, they were established in 2015 to address global challenges by 2030 and unfortunate, all 17 SDGs are off track with some targets even regressing.

01:04:27:14 – 01:05:02:06

Steven Schauer

That’s clearly a problem. To help address this problem, emphasized the need to transition our economic models from a shareholder first to a triple bottom line approach, prioritizing people and planet over profits. While this is crucial, it is also very challenging. Our current economic systems prioritize profit, neglecting the full social and environmental costs known as externalities. These include, for example, pollution, plastic waste, chemical usage, and social inequalities, which businesses often pass the cost of on to us.

01:05:02:08 – 01:05:37:18

Steven Schauer

The consumers. An academic researcher, professor and author, Chris Marquis, in his new book The Profiteers, argues that businesses privatize profits while socializing costs, revealing flaws in the belief that companies can maximize profits and benefit society simultaneously. Andy points out how corporations are actually gaslighting us into believing this fallacy. He suggests systemic solutions are needed to fix these systemic problems, including regenerative business models that restore natural resources and promote equity.

01:05:37:20 – 01:06:02:05

Steven Schauer

I, for one, am in full agreement with his argument, and I plan to have guests on in the future who share their powerful stories better, connecting us to the meaning and significance of economic terms like externality and regenerative business. Look, it is well past time to transform our economic models. There is a need to change our personal behavior and demand action from businesses and political leaders.

01:06:02:07 – 01:06:26:07

Steven Schauer

Embracing conscious consumerism and impact purpose driven entrepreneurial ship and economic systems. Just as advocates. What also resonates with me are Dash’s ideas about how spark AI will be able to help people find their passion, and businesses where they might best utilize their passion in a career. I have found my passion and I believe I’m already in the right career.

01:06:26:09 – 01:06:52:22

Steven Schauer

However, because of this conversation with Dash, I have already started using AI to identify companies adopting regenerative practices and to find new ways that I can become a more conscious consumer. I will continue to vote with my money for sustainable businesses, and I will continue to vote for politicians who I believe best demonstrate the necessary courage it will take to change outdated policies into a more sustainable direction.

01:06:53:00 – 01:07:15:14

Steven Schauer

I encourage you to vote for the businesses and elected officials that most closely align with your values. My hope is that organized communities and citizens can utilize their power to help expedite the change to a new, more sustainable and equitable future. My hope in the future also resides in young people like the next guest on story. Sustain Us.

01:07:15:16 – 01:07:38:12

Steven Schauer

Join me next week for an inspiring conversation with a young UK based activist. Her energy and achievements will undoubtedly motivate you to take action. So check out Stories Sustain us on July 2nd wherever you listen to your favorite podcast, which I hope is this one. So please hit those like, subscribe and follow buttons. You can also get the episode at Story sustainer.com.

01:07:38:14 – 01:07:46:13

Steven Schauer

Until next time I’m Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself and each other. Take care.

Listen to the podcast or watch the full interview.

Summary

Ramandeep Najjar, a second-year zoology student, shares her journey as a young changemaker and her passion for making a positive difference. She discusses her upbringing, the support of her family, and her early experiences in volunteering. Ramandeep emphasizes the importance of self-belief, community, and the power of nature. She also talks about her transition to university, her involvement in various extracurricular activities, and her co-founding of the Hedgehog Society. Ramandeep shares her experiences and passion for nature conservation and youth activism. She discusses her involvement in various organizations and projects, including the Hedgehog Society, UK Youth for Nature, and the British Trust for Ornithology. Ramandeep emphasizes the importance of kindness, positivity, and collaboration in creating a better future. She encourages people to take small actions, connect with others, and support young voices in making a positive difference.

About the Guest

Ramandeep Nijjar is a zoology student at the University of Reading and will be joining the Global Rewilding Alliance team from September for her Placement year. She is a dedicated nature campaigner, young changemaker and passionate about sustainability, climate justice and social action.

Alongside her studies until recently she was co-president and co-founder of the university’s Hedgehog Society. She is currently a key organiser for UK Youth for Nature which is a team of youth creative campaigners, youth representative for British Trust for Ornithology and an ambassador for Nature Positive Universities. She is also a core team member working on an upcoming youth-led nature storytelling podcast titled “Generation Nature.”

Ramandeep is always keen to try and provide more opportunities for young people and allow them to get involved and feel empowered so they too can create change and make a positive difference to the world.

 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramannijjar2004/

[email protected]

Show Notes

• The organization where Ramandeep did her Croatia Conservation research expedition with: https://www.opwall.com/
• The youth nature short film that Ramandeep was involved with: Young Voices for Nature –  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzBgsTYUyqU&t=3s

If young people in the UK want to have a look for other youth wildlife and birding opportunities they can get involved with. 

• https://www.generationnature.org.uk/ The website for the upcoming youth nature podcast. 
• UK Youth for Nature website: https://uky4n.org/
• British Trust for Ornithology Youth Hub: https://www.bto.org/about-bto/bto-youth

Key Words

young changemaker, zoology student, volunteering, self-belief, community, nature, mental health, support system, university life, extracurricular activities, Hedgehog Society, nature conservation, youth activism, organizations, projects, kindness, positivity, collaboration, better future, small actions, connect, support young voices

Transcript

00:00:00:14 – 00:00:25:19

Steven Schauer

Welcome back to another episode of Stories Sustain Us. I’m your host, Steven Schauer, and today we’re diving into an inspiring conversation that will uplift and motivate you to make a difference. In episode three, I have the pleasure of interviewing the remarkable UK based youth activist Ramandeep Nijjar. Ramandeep shares her journey of believing in oneself and developing a strong mindset to create positive change.

00:00:25:21 – 00:00:52:20

Steven Schauer

She emphasizes the importance of a supportive network of family and friends and personal growth and success. And throughout our conversation, we explore how volunteering and engaging in charity work can be deeply fulfilling and provide a sense of purpose. We also touch on the significance of open conversations about mental health and seeking support for personal well-being. Ramandeep highlights how University Life offers numerous opportunities to pursue your passions.

00:00:52:22 – 00:01:19:13

Steven Schauer

Connect with like minded individuals and make an impact through organizations and projects related to nature conservation and youth activism. Throughout the interview, Ramandeep encourages us to be kind, positive, and supportive in our interactions, to take small actions that contribute to making a positive difference, and to connect with communities that share our values. She passionately advocates for supporting and encouraging young voices in their efforts to create change.

00:01:19:15 – 00:01:31:21

Steven Schauer

So sit back, relax, and get ready to be inspired by the incredible Ramandeep Nijjar here on Story Sustain Us, where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

00:01:31:21 – 00:01:43:22

Steven Schauer

right. Well, welcome, Ramandeep. Thank you so much for joining me on Story Sustain Us. How are you? I guess this afternoon you’re you’re over in England. It’s morning for me over here in Seattle. So how are you doing today?

00:01:44:00 – 00:01:50:12

Ramandeep Nijjar

I’m very well. Thank you. And thank you for inviting me to be a guest on your podcast. So I’m excited to discuss with you certain things.

00:01:50:12 – 00:02:12:01

Steven Schauer

Yeah, well, I’m super excited to have you. It’s, have been, I don’t know, you, so it’s nice to meet you. Kind of. For the first time today in, in, we met through, a mutual acquaintance who who I had on the show, last week. so it’s, I appreciate his kind of connecting us through the Changemakers alliance and.

00:02:12:01 – 00:02:19:08

Steven Schauer

And you’re a young changemaker. You are, a young university student over in at the University of Redding. Is that correct?

00:02:19:09 – 00:02:40:06

Ramandeep Nijjar

yes. That’s correct. So I’m a second year symbology student. I like getting involved with lots of different things, and I think I never really thought of myself as a changemaker, but over two years, I feel like when you start, I guess doing things, people kind of give you that label. And I’ve now realized that maybe, it’s not a bad thing to want to make things better.

00:02:40:06 – 00:02:46:14

Ramandeep Nijjar

So I know I’m proud to say that I’m a young changemaker and yeah, like everything that I do.

00:02:46:16 – 00:03:08:05

Steven Schauer

Yeah. Well you you’re doing, an amazing amount of things. way more than I was doing in at your age. I was, when I was at university. At your age, I was, playing football. We called soccer over here, but I was just. That was like, that’s what I did. And you’re just doing all of these things, and we’ll get to that in a minute.

00:03:08:05 – 00:03:24:03

Steven Schauer

But first, tell me a little bit about your journey. Like, where are you from? You know, what’s what kind of family you from? What have you been doing prior to getting to university? How did you get to this point in your life? What’s what’s your story, Ramandeep?

00:03:24:05 – 00:03:40:15

Ramandeep Nijjar

So, I’m 19, so, probably. What are you going to be one of you younger, I guess. But, I guess it all began for me in primary school. and I’m really thankful for that school because I think it’s set me up for the rest of my life because we had a slogan which was, believe it, achieve it.

00:03:40:20 – 00:03:59:19

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I feel like that’s always been ingrained in me, like, if you have faith to do something and you have an up, strong mindset that you can do anything that you want to. so yeah, I think I really enjoyed my time there. I was definitely a tomboy like you. I would come home with grass stains on my shirt.

00:03:59:19 – 00:04:23:09

Ramandeep Nijjar

So we playing football at lunch time. but I think it just really. And, teachers were really supportive and they really instilled in us as young people that whatever we wanted to achieve, if we wanted to do it, we could give it a go. And I think that was really great, because you need to instill in young people that sense of self-belief, because then who knows what they could achieve.

00:04:23:11 – 00:04:46:08

Ramandeep Nijjar

Then after that, I went to, a selective grammar school. So I’m from, near Birmingham in the Midlands in the UK. And that was also another great experience because the they encourage you to do things outside of studies as well. And because I’m dyslexic, sometimes, studies can be a bit more challenging. So I could put my extra energy into sports.

00:04:46:08 – 00:05:05:20

Ramandeep Nijjar

Like any school, I would be content with. And then I always loved also charity work. So because I’ve always wanted to make a positive difference to others and people say that you’re helping others, but I feel like it also helped me so much. So many of the volunteering and Jerry’s charity things I do. Yeah, it’s just so fulfilling.

00:05:05:20 – 00:05:28:07

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I don’t know, you just make good people and I feel like everything I do, I’m just so thankful to be surrounded by such kind, lovely, good people to keep you on the right path. So I think, yeah, throughout my ten year school, I was able to do a lot of like events organizing, and I think that really has led me to do a lot of things at university.

00:05:28:09 – 00:05:53:06

Ramandeep Nijjar

so one of the things that I did in school was they had an anti-bullying team, and I was able to lead that in my final year, and we would have different monthly themes, which we focused on. So things like, day, LGBT, LG, BTec plus, History Month, History Month, and it was all about trying to celebrate different things to encourage more inclusion within the school.

00:05:53:08 – 00:06:04:22

Ramandeep Nijjar

And then I think I did other things as well. But I think also a lot of the stuff I did outside of school started Girlguiding since I was five. because I just Girlguiding is that.

00:06:05:03 – 00:06:10:09

Steven Schauer

Yeah, kind of like equivalent to what would be the Girl Scouts in the States.

00:06:10:11 – 00:06:22:20

Ramandeep Nijjar

Yeah. Similar to you. So we have scouts here as well. So very similar. So and I think because my parents were from an early age that I was most happiest outdoors, but I thought, let’s put her in a group so that she’s safe.

00:06:22:22 – 00:06:24:11

Steven Schauer

Sure, sure, sure.

00:06:24:12 – 00:06:42:10

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I really I’m very grateful that they let me to do that because some they’re still some of my closest friends today. Because when you’re out camping or out in nature, you’ve got no other. Like like, I will be talking to you guys, but you probably got no phone connection. So when you’re connecting, you’ve just got that one on one connection.

00:06:42:10 – 00:07:02:18

Ramandeep Nijjar

And it’s still something that I love, like being able to when you go, can you just completely disconnect and have a little nature bubble for a few days? Just. Yeah. To recharge. I was actually young needed for that unit for two years, but sadly it was during Covid. So we had a lot of zoom meetings, but it was still a challenging but new experience.

00:07:02:18 – 00:07:21:08

Ramandeep Nijjar

How to still make engaging sessions while you’re on zoom. So we did a lot of things like virtual campout, a lot of virtual games. We did a quite a few virtual bake class, which was quite fun, like all the parents seeing the mess in their kitchens. But we had fun. Yeah.

00:07:21:10 – 00:07:28:04

Steven Schauer

I don’t know how popular The Great British Bake Off is actually, in Britain, but it’s like one of my favorite shows.

00:07:28:04 – 00:07:44:02

Ramandeep Nijjar

So no, it’s definitely popular here. Like when you know it’s on, it’s a lot of people from even if they never had an interest with baking outside will be watching it still. And yeah, that everyone watches it and want to know what’s going on. So yeah. Yeah.

00:07:44:04 – 00:07:57:21

Steven Schauer

We love it. That’s great. So tell me let me back you up a little bit. And so you mentioned you parents. You have any other siblings or. Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about your family if that’s okay. Like you know.

00:07:57:21 – 00:08:18:03

Ramandeep Nijjar

Yes of course. Yeah. so I’m from a Sikh background. okay. Faith and, Yes. And I feel, it’s very something that I care a lot about because even though I study a science degree, I feel like it’s given me great morals, my faith. And it’s always something that I carry with me just as something.

00:08:18:03 – 00:08:37:16

Ramandeep Nijjar

Whenever you need something to turn back to, it’s just always within me, I guess. I’m very lucky that my family is very supportive. I have an older sister, and she’s always been very inspiring to me because she’s always with similar things with whatever she’s done. She’s always done it with confidence, with Grace. And she’s. Yeah, she’s just been incredible.

00:08:37:16 – 00:08:57:23

Ramandeep Nijjar

So to have someone to follow, I guess is really amazing. And I think also my parents have also been very supportive in my passion. So if not probably understand it sometimes, like they sometimes I just think, oh, it’s from a nature thing, but they’ve never held me back. And which has been really great. They’ve always pushed me to whatever my dreams of being is.

00:08:58:01 – 00:09:15:09

Ramandeep Nijjar

How can they support me and put me forward to that? So I know when we were growing up, we would often have, we’d have a static car ride which was near Stratford upon Avon, and that also had no internet. But often we’d spend weekends there, and it was just, for me, total bliss to be immersed in nature.

00:09:15:09 – 00:09:31:14

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I think if I didn’t have that connection with nature from an early age, I don’t think I would have wanted it. Well, I don’t think I would have felt that. I want it to be my career, working, protecting it. And I think often young people have passions where they kind of die out, which I think is such a shame.

00:09:31:14 – 00:09:50:16

Ramandeep Nijjar

Whereas luckily that never happened for me because I always, continually supported that idea of like, how else can we, support women through her nature journey? And yeah, they’ve just always what we mean. And I think, like my both my parents have always said like, had the same thing, like, you can do anything you put your mind to.

00:09:50:16 – 00:09:57:17

Ramandeep Nijjar

And they’ve always supported me to like push myself and yeah, I just, yes, dream big and try and see what happens.

00:09:57:19 – 00:10:14:05

Steven Schauer

Yeah, well that’s wonderful. Your parents sound like lovely people and and, I want to thank them for helping you along as well, because we need, folks like you that are going to, you know, work hard and do your best to try to help us out. Because folks my age and older have kind of made a mess of things.

00:10:14:07 – 00:10:19:07

Steven Schauer

So we so appreciate you coming along and, jumping into everything.

00:10:19:07 – 00:10:31:22

Ramandeep Nijjar

Well, I’m very grateful because, you know, tell them my sounding board, like, I would just be like, what’s your advice on this? And who knows, even though you would need someone that you can just. Yeah, like have a conversation with just to check if you’re on the right track.

00:10:32:00 – 00:10:34:15

Steven Schauer

Yeah. And that’s wonderful. Not not everybody has that.

00:10:34:18 – 00:10:35:02

Ramandeep Nijjar

Kind.

00:10:35:02 – 00:10:51:12

Steven Schauer

Of with their family. So it’s. Yeah. What a what a wonderful opportunity that you have to, to have that upbringing and, and carry that forward into your life. and so an older sister and, and is that your only sibling that you have as well?

00:10:51:14 – 00:11:12:04

Ramandeep Nijjar

yes. My own only sibling, I think, there is nine years between us, so I think, oh, yeah, quite a big gap. I think when I was younger we probably didn’t, spend as much time together. We’ll connect as much just because of the age gap. Like when I was in school, she was going to university. But I think now that I’m older, we connect a lot more.

00:11:12:06 – 00:11:24:01

Ramandeep Nijjar

just because. Yeah, I just I feel like when you’re older, you’re able to have probably have a better conversation than when there’s an age gap. You out completely different, stages of your life.

00:11:24:03 – 00:11:40:18

Steven Schauer

Absolutely. I can I have a, my oldest sister is ten years older than me, and so I can it’s very similar story. We connected more as adults than you know, as you said, when when I was eight and she was already out of the house and going to university, then, you know, what, are we going to talk about it?

00:11:40:18 – 00:12:06:09

Steven Schauer

So but yeah, as we have, grown older together, we’ve certainly become closer. And, you know, my middle sister as well, connected more with her as an adult. So, very similar understanding of your path there as well. So you’re in, you know, grade school and you’re starting to experience these things. You’d mentioned you’d already started doing volunteer work at a, at a young age.

00:12:06:09 – 00:12:28:23

Steven Schauer

What were some of the volunteer activities that you participated in prior to the the long list of things we’re going to get into here shortly about what you’re doing now, but it sounds like you’ve been active in volunteerism for quite a while. So what were some of the first things that you did that kind of gave you that understanding that you mentioned that when you’re doing good for others, it also is, you know, beneficial to you too.

00:12:28:23 – 00:12:30:22

Steven Schauer

So what? Yeah.

00:12:31:00 – 00:12:54:20

Ramandeep Nijjar

so, while on the school, I think it was about, oh, three and a half to four years, I volunteered with the homeless charity. they were called little longer Service Society. So I think to like my faith. so they serve and they would serve anyone, any food they needed. it was once a week in Birmingham, and that was really nice because, sometimes I’d go with my father and we do it together.

00:12:54:20 – 00:13:22:07

Ramandeep Nijjar

So it was really nice that we were able to share that same, once a week, giving back to other people. I think that was also a really great experience because I can’t remember the year is. But they every year at the main, train station in Birmingham, they do like a Christmas party where anyone who about 200 to 300 people from, homeless families or that’s one actually able to just come have a full Christmas dinner, have gifts with Santa.

00:13:22:07 – 00:13:38:15

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I was able to volunteer, on one of the days. And that was a really lovely experience, just to dress up with a Santa hat, go round and nice and spread some, festive cheer, which is really lovely, but I think, yeah, I did that cook for quite a while and it was all weathers we would do it.

00:13:38:15 – 00:14:10:02

Ramandeep Nijjar

But I think when you even if, if it’s cold and rainy, just to be able to give something back, I think was I would enjoy every single moment. And you always just felt part of the team. I think I then did a lot of my volunteering in school, so I did Girlguiding throughout quite did a lot of things within my school, were organizing charity events, do the when for example, when, Ukraine, the Ukraine fundraisers were going on, we did a whole week of fundraisers at my school and, things like that.

00:14:10:03 – 00:14:41:02

Ramandeep Nijjar

And just because of the school community. So with like every year different community drives. And I think it was just a really great stepping stone so that I could then develop those skills in a safe, environment. But I think volunteer has always been something that I’ve continued to do. So even when the pandemic came along and I was like, oh, there’s probably no volunteering, you can do well, I discovered another project called Spreading Kindness and they were sending letters to elderly residents in care homes because they couldn’t see that family.

00:14:41:04 – 00:15:02:21

Ramandeep Nijjar

So then I was then able to help write letters for them, just to say a little bit about what are we doing? And one actually wrote back and was really lovely. She was 98 and she said like, oh, we don’t have much connection. But at the moment, staying in that bubbles. But your letters really lift my spirit because seeing someone being really energetic about life really helps keep them going.

00:15:02:23 – 00:15:20:05

Ramandeep Nijjar

And it was really funny because a lot of, children from primary schools like Saint drawings and artwork, I could never do artwork, so I had to stick to the letters. But yeah, things like that. I think it was really nice just to see that the community coming together and wanting to still do something.

00:15:20:07 – 00:15:27:05

Steven Schauer

That’s wonderful and that’s wonderful. I appreciate you sharing that, that story that that warmed my heart. That’s lovely.

00:15:27:07 – 00:15:49:12

Ramandeep Nijjar

Well, I will me and it can be it gave me a perfect during lockdown I voted on night school, but it gave me something to look forward to. Like once a week, like, yeah, right. And I think now I do journaling from starting those letters just for my personal, thing, but it gave me something that means that you reflect on the way I think about what went well, what was good, what was not, and then journaling often is time to do so.

00:15:49:12 – 00:15:51:07

Ramandeep Nijjar

I yeah, so continue to do that.

00:15:51:08 – 00:15:58:05

Steven Schauer

I journal as well for those reasons. Yeah I tried I, I have a daily goal of journaling. I don’t hit my daily but I certainly.

00:15:58:05 – 00:15:59:16

Ramandeep Nijjar

Catch on for two weeks.

00:15:59:16 – 00:16:20:04

Steven Schauer

Yeah, yeah I get it once or twice a week as well. That’s about all I do. But it is a daily ambition. But it is such a powerful thing to kind of put your thoughts down in writing. It helps. It helps me. It sounds like it’s similar to you. It helps me kind of process, you know, what’s been going on, what I’m feeling, what I’m thinking.

00:16:20:06 – 00:16:21:02

Steven Schauer

so yeah, it’s such a I.

00:16:21:02 – 00:16:27:06

Ramandeep Nijjar

Don’t if you’re going through day, you can just look back at your journal and see what another amazing day is that you’ve had before and then.

00:16:27:08 – 00:16:36:15

Steven Schauer

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Jeez, Louise, you’ve learned all this at such a young age. It took me. I was in my 30s before I realized the power of journaling. So,

00:16:36:17 – 00:16:40:05

Ramandeep Nijjar

There’s a lot you’ve got to learn. A lot, a lot you do you.

00:16:40:08 – 00:17:07:05

Steven Schauer

But there’s so much about you that I’m, I’m just thrilled to know and impressed by so, so. So you’re finishing school, your grammar school, and you’re getting ready to move on to university? I don’t know if it’s, you know, how does that work in the in the UK? do you get to me you have to apply to different universities and so, so tell me about that process, how you wound up, at the university where you are now.

00:17:07:11 – 00:17:31:12

Ramandeep Nijjar

Yes. so I was very lucky. so we did fetuses and then we did A-levels. so I currently study theology, but I, for a long period of time thought I was going to be doing veterinary just because I’ve always had that interest with animals. And I mean, if people say animals like, oh, become a vet. I did a placement, I think it was when I was 16 that was at a veterinary practice.

00:17:31:14 – 00:17:49:21

Ramandeep Nijjar

I loved it. It was a great few weeks, but just something didn’t feel right. I was like, it’s a really great experience. I can’t see myself doing this every day. And then luckily, after the pandemic, I was looking for places to get work experience, and there was an outdoor conservation park near where I live where they.

00:17:50:02 – 00:18:16:00

Ramandeep Nijjar

It’s like a zoo, but more for endangered animals. And, they took me on for a few weeks and that was life changing. Like the it’s getting to be like like some people. It’s not that, like ideal job, like feeding animal enclosures. But I guess this is to me who’s so fascinated by animals going to have that unique experience of being able to be so close to them, and then also talk to members of the general public about these animals that I loved.

00:18:16:00 – 00:18:38:21

Ramandeep Nijjar

I’ve really enjoyed that those experiences, and I think they then met the keepers and they all told me, like their backgrounds, that they studied ecology. What a j. And for me that was all very neat. I never really thought that you could have whole degree dedicated these to these topics. So I then. Yeah. so okay, I’m going to so you see what I do because that’s now my thing.

00:18:38:21 – 00:18:58:13

Ramandeep Nijjar

So you then do your A-levels and then you select five university and then you from that. If they like your personal statement, which is where you write a little bit about yourself, they will then, give you offers or not give you offers and then based on that you do your, you put like a ranking of, like, the second choice.

00:18:58:15 – 00:19:20:21

Ramandeep Nijjar

And then on results day, based on what grades you get, you hopefully get one of those first or second choices. Whereas for me, I actually went through something called clearing, which is where if you don’t be a great, you then call around universities and say, okay, then have any spaces opened up. So, because what happened was I never really talk about this too much.

00:19:20:21 – 00:19:27:04

Ramandeep Nijjar

But during my final exams, one of my close friends sadly passed away.

00:19:27:06 – 00:19:28:00

Steven Schauer

Oh, no.

00:19:28:01 – 00:20:00:18

Ramandeep Nijjar

Yeah. So sorry. It’s okay. Sorry. talk about it now. okay. But that meant, you try not to process it, but I because she. I caught the bus with her, like, every day. even though she wasn’t in my group. Like it. Really? What? the peak of people that I caught the bus with. So I think I didn’t do as well on one of my, one of my subjects that I wanted to, but in a way, it was kind of a blessing in disguise because the university that I’m at now wasn’t actually on my break.

00:20:00:18 – 00:20:17:01

Ramandeep Nijjar

It was only when I was looking around for clearing. I called them and just said, hi, I’m looking for a zoology place, and they said, we’ve got some spaces available and we really like your personal statement, so why don’t you come join us? And now I know I can’t see any different because I’m so happy here at writing.

00:20:17:01 – 00:20:20:16

Ramandeep Nijjar

So yeah, everything happens for a reason.

00:20:20:18 – 00:20:41:07

Steven Schauer

Yeah, it’s it’s hard to see that in the, in the moment. So you know, I certainly, you know, send send you my condolences for the loss of your friend. That’s it’s hard at any at any age in, in that grief can certainly impact us. Right. So it makes sense that some of your, your testing didn’t go as well during that time.

00:20:41:07 – 00:20:45:09

Steven Schauer

But yeah, what a what a positive outcome that you were able to make out of it by. Well I think.

00:20:45:09 – 00:21:04:08

Ramandeep Nijjar

Yeah, I think that’s to me like I’ve always cared about mental health campaigning. Right. We’ll talk more about the nature campaign too. But I think one of the like I care a lot about mental health campaigning. And I think since then it kind of spurred me on to do a lot more. yeah. Yeah. I guess because you never know what someone’s going through and it’s so hidden.

00:21:04:08 – 00:21:13:08

Ramandeep Nijjar

So, you know, that one conversation, that one post, that one thing might be the lifesaver will help make a difference for someone.

00:21:13:10 – 00:21:33:17

Steven Schauer

Yeah. That’s great. That’s a great sentiment. Great advice. Yeah. We, you know, tend to put up our masks and not let people know what’s going on inside so that, you know, recognizing that, you know, everybody has something that they’re dealing with on the inside and, you know, trying to live a life of empathy and compassion. that’s such an important thing for me as well.

00:21:33:17 – 00:21:34:22

Steven Schauer

So, yeah.

00:21:35:00 – 00:21:55:15

Ramandeep Nijjar

And yeah, I just think, like, I’m quite an open book just because it’s for me, it’s too tiring to have two different personalities. But yeah, I’d say I know why people do that. Because I have to be scared of judgment or what people will think. but I just say that. Just be yourself, whatever it is. Because if you will connect with people, you will find people.

00:21:55:15 – 00:22:10:13

Ramandeep Nijjar

And it’s so much easier. Like, you might not think about it initially, but for me, like now growing over the last few years, it’s so much easier just to be my weird, crazy self because there are people out there that will have the same interests or connect with me at some point.

00:22:10:13 – 00:22:42:04

Steven Schauer

So yeah, yeah, that again, such wise thoughts and advice. I’ve got a guest coming on in a few weeks. It’s, works in, in the field of, mental health and, and trying to normalize conversations around mental health issues so that people can find the support that they need in the hope that they need so they don’t have to, you know, not only have whatever they’re, you know, battling on the inside, but then I also have to deal with the fear of what if I tell somebody I need help, you know?

00:22:42:04 – 00:22:50:17

Steven Schauer

So that’s such an important thing for me, as well as to provide people safe spaces to acknowledge they need help. And then,

00:22:50:19 – 00:22:51:15

Ramandeep Nijjar

Yeah, if you say.

00:22:51:17 – 00:22:51:19

Steven Schauer

To.

00:22:52:01 – 00:23:14:08

Ramandeep Nijjar

Them, even if you’re not, you think you’re in a good place or you want support, like it’s not a bad thing to want that support, like it’s right. because I know in my this year I university if you want to they offer like six counseling sessions. So I did that this year just because for you I, I don’t know, just because I’ve always never done it before and I’ve always had a lot of imposter syndrome.

00:23:14:08 – 00:23:33:03

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I thought, well, I don’t want to just stop what I’m doing. So let’s actually work out why this is happening, what the roots are. And it was just a really great because for me, actually, that helped me to think about things a lot differently. And yeah, I think now I know a lot of the things that are probably sharing with you probably.

00:23:33:07 – 00:23:38:11

Ramandeep Nijjar

But what she said in the sessions. But it’s really helped me. Yeah, you know that.

00:23:38:13 – 00:23:56:07

Steven Schauer

That’s wonderful. I’m glad you’ve taken advantage of that. I am I’ve done therapy in my life as well, and I wouldn’t be doing the show, and having conversations with strangers as well if, I didn’t do some of the personal work that I needed to do and some of those inner things as well. So good for you.

00:23:56:09 – 00:24:10:13

Steven Schauer

you know, I’m really, happy to hear that, that it was a good experience and that it helped you and, great message for whoever might be listening or watching to this that, you know, help was available. You know, you don’t have to do things, alone or suffer by yourself.

00:24:10:13 – 00:24:28:17

Ramandeep Nijjar

So stepping in. Yeah, even if it’s not like a professional sport to seek out a friend or someone, like. Right. let’s have a coffee or, like, have a conversation. I know it’s really hard to start the conversation, but once you take that step, like, you know, it will really help. And yes, you will be more than happy to help you.

00:24:28:17 – 00:24:30:04

Ramandeep Nijjar

They just don’t know what you’re going through.

00:24:30:04 – 00:24:51:02

Steven Schauer

So yeah, that’s been my experience as well, that that first step is always the hardest. But you know yeah, there’s I’ve always found a close network of friends that are there. and then I can be there for them too, because, you know, we, we all need that support system. So that’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. So, tell me a little bit now.

00:24:51:02 – 00:25:05:01

Steven Schauer

So you’ve you’ve wound up at university. How far away is this your first time away from, your home and, you know, to, to move to a different part of the UK. What’s the, what’s the distance between you and and your, your family now?

00:25:05:03 – 00:25:25:05

Ramandeep Nijjar

yeah. So it’s about two hours a day on the train. but it there’s some we have some family nearby, so it’s not too bad. And I think also the power of social media, like you can always stay up to date and connected. Like I’m always like on messages, like updating how my day is going, how it went.

00:25:25:05 – 00:25:49:12

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I think, yeah, it’s been I think, yeah, the first it was a bit of an adjustment because obviously when you see your family every day and then moving away, I think once you have a routine, once you get things that you involved with, you find like a family away from family. And that makes sense. Like a lot of my absolute friends, I would call kind of my family a bit because just, you get really close really quickly once you have really big conversations.

00:25:49:12 – 00:26:13:20

Ramandeep Nijjar

And, I think a lot of my closest friends, I’d say like, oh, my. Cool. So I thought I was part of a hiking society. So you’d be going out on a weekend exploring new places together and the same thing that you haven’t got your light devices. So you have to have meaningful conversations with one another. But yeah, a lot of conversations and the topics you talk about just being really interesting and you just get to know each other really well.

00:26:13:20 – 00:26:33:05

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I think locally as well, because we have like, like periods of time, which and so you can go back and you also you always connected. So I think it’s made things a lot easier. And at least when I call them now, I’ve got really exciting things to talk to them about. And they also have exciting things to tell me.

00:26:33:05 – 00:26:36:05

Ramandeep Nijjar

So I’m really not good.

00:26:36:07 – 00:27:03:01

Steven Schauer

Good. So you’re so zoology student and, you are involved in a lot of stuff outside of being a student. Tell me a little bit about, some of those things that you have a passion for that you’re you’re working on, that you’re leading. You know, I know I don’t want to steal your thunder. Yeah, I know you’re you’ve, you founded some things, co-founded some things.

00:27:03:01 – 00:27:23:16

Steven Schauer

And so tell me a little bit about your, you know, journey now that you’re in university and obviously paying attention to your grades and your classwork and everything, but all of this other extracurricular activity that you’re doing, let me know what I had to like, because it’s it’s fascinating what I’ve seen you post on, LinkedIn and other places.

00:27:23:16 – 00:27:26:07

Steven Schauer

You’re just involved in so many things.

00:27:26:09 – 00:27:51:02

Ramandeep Nijjar

yeah. So I wear a lot of different hats. you do? so I think what’s being really great is, that school, we obviously have studies, but I think they were just more general. Also, they’re not as specific to your passions was when you’re at university and you’re what you’re studying is your passion. And, you’re just surrounded by people that have that same energy, you for that subject that you do as well.

00:27:51:02 – 00:28:17:04

Ramandeep Nijjar

So it’d be really great to match my try and match my volunteer, role with that same passion of wanting to build those skill. So let’s see if we can bring the two together. So in my first year we had, mammals lecture lecturer in our second term, and he was talking about the plight of UK mammals and he said like, oh, I’m really knowledgeable around hedgehogs and other mammals in the UK.

00:28:17:06 – 00:28:33:13

Ramandeep Nijjar

maybe we can set up a student group if anyone’s keen, but I to say the same thing every year and no one’s really keen. And then me, my friend, my friend and I looked at each other and said, well, you like organizing things. I’ve always wanted to do something, so why don’t we join forces and set something up?

00:28:33:14 – 00:29:03:08

Ramandeep Nijjar

So we founded the Hedgehog Society, and, halfway through our first year, I wasn’t originally planning on setting up a society because that’s normally not what you do in your first year. You just join different ones. Sure. but I’m really glad that I did because we were able to set it up and we we’ve done so much with it, and I think it allows me to have like, find a purpose that the university and share my passion for event organizing and connecting people with events.

00:29:03:10 – 00:29:27:03

Ramandeep Nijjar

just creating lovely community. And I’ve always wanted to done like learn more hands on conservation skills like camera trapping, which is where you put like cameras around, mobile cameras around conference or like survey techniques. So we did something called a Footprint Journal survey, which is where you get these like cardboard tunnels. And then you put a piece of paper in an in the middle.

00:29:27:05 – 00:29:42:16

Ramandeep Nijjar

And then if an animal through the night has use the tunnel, you’ll see its footprints. So you do it for a week. And then it’s like an indirect way of trying to see what kind of animals might be there. So we would then see, like where are the actual hedgehogs on campus? And we’re trying to help them. So it was really exciting.

00:29:42:16 – 00:30:02:20

Ramandeep Nijjar

Then when you get hedgehog prints, you’re like, haha, we have found you. you’re in this area. but yeah. So we, I’ve only we’ve just handed over to the new committee, but we, I, we run it for about 15 to 16 months with Nyla and we had about a team of 70 members. So I think it was my first role of such a big team.

00:30:02:20 – 00:30:25:19

Ramandeep Nijjar

How do we get all these different people engaged. And also it was really great. A lot of them aren’t from zoology ecology courses, so it’s like how do we still get them involved? And even though we were called the Hedgehog Society, we did a lot of broader wildlife nature events. It was just more about getting people engaged with nature, wildlife conservation things then that they might not have ever thought about before.

00:30:25:19 – 00:30:48:22

Ramandeep Nijjar

And then also so shows were also, because quite a lot, a drinker of like alcohol, like I don’t drink alcohol and I’m not really a clubbing type of person, but I think sometimes at university you feel like you need to be that kind of person to socialize. And whereas with our society, we would do things like board game night, quiz night, craft night.

00:30:48:22 – 00:30:59:11

Ramandeep Nijjar

So other fun things like that. So then people that didn’t find those things the most appealing, they had another safe space where they could make friends and get to know the people.

00:30:59:13 – 00:31:00:19

Steven Schauer

Yeah, wonderful.

00:31:00:21 – 00:31:23:20

Ramandeep Nijjar

But yeah, I think it’s just I look back on it and it’s really helped me grow my confidence because you then speak to wider university staff, different university. We connected with a lot of people like outside the university, like local environmental groups and just I think like that. I guess it just gives you that if you’re representing something, you’ve got like a little thing to start a conversation with, like, oh, I’m representing this group.

00:31:23:20 – 00:31:48:01

Ramandeep Nijjar

Do you want to hear a little bit more about it? So after I did that, then, there was a David Attenborough series, Wild Owls. probably heard of it because. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they then had a campaign afterwards could save our wild Owls, which was encouraging community initiatives to get involved with different things. So after that, I then looked like, what can I do?

00:31:48:01 – 00:32:08:22

Ramandeep Nijjar

Because I really like running the society, but I’m a bit more like one of the bigger picture things. So that’s when I then discovered the UK campaigning group called UK for nature. So we’re a team of okay youth creative campaigners and we try and make campaigning exciting and do that creative, spin offs on that to get more young people engaged with nature.

00:32:08:22 – 00:32:39:09

Ramandeep Nijjar

And then so I, then I had the introduction call with them. I think that may last year, but I then didn’t properly start getting involved until after my exams. So I think it was about July, because then June to July, as you can see, I’m always doing things. I was in Croatia moving for a month where I was, based in Kirk National Park during like a month of different, taxonomic surveys with the organization Operation Wallasey.

00:32:39:11 – 00:32:59:11

Ramandeep Nijjar

And that was a really great experience because you have this, you do your course and it’s all about different animals and species, but you never really get that, like seeing them in real life. So to have a whole month of being able to go with the experienced survey leaders, and I actually see these species in person and then have to survey them and watch them record them.

00:32:59:11 – 00:33:03:13

Ramandeep Nijjar

It was amazing. And then I then on that trip realized.

00:33:03:14 – 00:33:08:12

Steven Schauer

And what species are were you recording and observing what what were you thoughts?

00:33:08:12 – 00:33:34:20

Ramandeep Nijjar

So sweet. So like loads of different reptiles. We saw like different insects for the survey. Like to do with that. Crickets and grasshoppers. we got one of the big highlights was we didn’t see them, but we saw palm prints of wolf tracks. Oh, and that was our first time in that area. So the group that I was with when we saw them with that survey ladies, we all had that same like, oh my goodness, this is just incredible.

00:33:34:22 – 00:34:01:21

Ramandeep Nijjar

yeah. And then of course, when they, when on the evening survey they did, they found a and did hedgehog that needed like, was dehydrated. And of course they then called me and then I, it’s very that like, found that they dated hedgehog. So then me and then to the people from the mammal team, then they placed it into a plastic box and we then gave it some water, and then it meant that we could then eventually release it.

00:34:01:23 – 00:34:20:06

Ramandeep Nijjar

But there was just. Yeah. it’s a really great experience because normally people come for like one week, two weeks, but, I went for a month because in my, I think it was when I was 16 or 17, they were organizing at my school like a charity trip to Nepal, but obviously Covid hit. So that all got canceled.

00:34:20:06 – 00:34:39:15

Ramandeep Nijjar

So I’d fundraised all this money to take me on this trip, but I couldn’t then spend it because it got canceled. So I always had that money ready to go. And then as soon as I saw this, I thought, well, why not use it to help me get that, survey experience? Because I thought all that effort and trying to fundraise it.

00:34:39:17 – 00:35:01:14

Ramandeep Nijjar

So, first two weeks, you then get put for like on the different survey data, you get a voter. So you then told which survey you can get involved with. And then often there’s optional survey. So if you want to get a bit more experience, you can just sign up to those. So I basically did as much as I could just because I thought I’m here, I might be completely exhausted, but let’s just make the most of it.

00:35:01:16 – 00:35:21:19

Ramandeep Nijjar

And then after that, you because I was in for another two weeks after we could take a move, a leadership role. So when new team, new people were coming to the beach, we then show them around, tell them how things work. We also had quite a few, high school students come, so I was able to then with a friend, give a guest lecture on the importance of the work we were doing at the base.

00:35:21:20 – 00:35:41:07

Ramandeep Nijjar

Like what? How it contributes to the science and things like that. So that was really exciting because I’d not really done a lecture before like of that scale or that those topics. So to be able to say like, oh, I’ve jointly given a lecture, with a really nice experience, and then to also think of activities to get them involved.

00:35:41:09 – 00:35:59:18

Ramandeep Nijjar

So we then had a specific team that we had to join for the final two weeks. So I chose the birthdays just because I really found on that trip that for some reason the birds just captivated me. Like even though it’s very early morning starts because we’d have to go before like the dawn chorus, which is like normally quite early, like 4 or 5:00 starts in the morning.

00:35:59:18 – 00:36:21:10

Ramandeep Nijjar

Sure. but just to see the sunrise and like in the early morning for me was just pure magic. And I didn’t mind the early start. So. Yeah. So that then naturally after that trip thinking, oh, I still want to do something with birds, what’s, what’s out there? And then that discovered how we discovered the British Trust for an apology, was recruiting new members for the youth team.

00:36:21:10 – 00:36:38:16

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I thought, well, yeah, I have a thing for bird, so let’s just see where it goes. I’m not as much knowledgeable as probably people in the youth team would be, but. But angel bird watching that I. But you have to start somewhere. So I did the application process on an interview and then I ended up joining.

00:36:38:16 – 00:37:02:15

Ramandeep Nijjar

So then in the first appeared in a few days in September, then got to go along to the annual get together and meet a lot of the team. And since then, I’m still part of that team. And now, burning a few birding events for people in different areas. getting to lead it and lead them to get give them a safe space for them to learn about bird watching with another group, young people, and then with them.

00:37:02:15 – 00:37:21:16

Ramandeep Nijjar

It seems to be really exciting. So I really care about like equity, diversity, inclusion. So I now lead the working group, focus on that, and we now work with wider staff and different things. So that’s been really great. So for example, we did a workshop on International Women’s Day in March, and we’ve now just launched a women’s network for BTO.

00:37:21:18 – 00:37:25:07

Ramandeep Nijjar

We had the first, meeting this week.

00:37:25:09 – 00:37:27:08

Steven Schauer

So what is BTO?

00:37:27:10 – 00:37:30:10

Ramandeep Nijjar

So that’s the British Trust for ornithology.

00:37:30:12 – 00:37:30:22

Steven Schauer

Okay.

00:37:31:03 – 00:37:33:11

Ramandeep Nijjar

So yeah, I know I do a lot of things, so.

00:37:33:13 – 00:37:45:14

Steven Schauer

I guess yeah I know, yeah, yeah, that’s the one I want to make sure that everybody understands what you what you’re what you’re chatting about. So you. So, continue. I just want to make sure we understood there was no, no no problem.

00:37:45:16 – 00:38:08:21

Ramandeep Nijjar

yeah. You’re doing great. You did great. But yeah. So that’s really, really great. And then with that as well, they did. They we’ve partnered with other organizations for in I think it was February. They did a Youth and Nature summit, which is where it was like a conference, but just for young people. and that was really great because like, the first day was all around, giving young people the skills that they needed to do.

00:38:08:23 – 00:38:20:06

Ramandeep Nijjar

So we, then was able to run a session with a friend, shyness, where we did something on youth campaigning and how encouraging young people like how they can use their voice to make a positive difference. And then the second day was.

00:38:20:06 – 00:38:24:06

Steven Schauer

It’s like campaigning for ta ta for voting or getting people engaged in.

00:38:24:09 – 00:38:25:01

Ramandeep Nijjar

Anything.

00:38:25:02 – 00:38:27:22

Steven Schauer

I think any, any type of advocacy work.

00:38:27:22 – 00:38:46:23

Ramandeep Nijjar

Yeah. So any nature, climate, anything. I think it’s more just trying to show the array of things that can be, sure. And voters come in expecting when people I say campaigning, they say like, oh, you have to write to me. Signing up protection. attend a protest. That’s what campaigning is, which are all parts of campaigning.

00:38:46:23 – 00:39:17:11

Ramandeep Nijjar

But you can also write a song, you can write a social media post, you can write a poem, you can have a conversation with someone, you can draw a picture. You can, organize an event, just getting people together. You can go to your local cafe and just say, can I have a can we organize a session where we just get people to come together to discuss a certain topic that all forms of campaigning, so this great, very broad things that can be so like for example, one when we’re campaigning might be filmmaking.

00:39:17:11 – 00:39:39:16

Ramandeep Nijjar

So that was also what we worked on in, some of the creation of a project for Young Voices for nature, where they got 200 young people across the UK, and we made, I think, collected them together about nature and what it means to us and, encouraging other young people like what our journeys were so they could then see that and then realize, like they can also take the step of doing something.

00:39:39:16 – 00:40:07:10

Ramandeep Nijjar

So we had people that, like, set up a community garden or take pictures of plants or, yeah, just I think it was just I really love being part of bigger movements or bigger things because you feel like that. Like often you can feel like, oh, I don’t have the right skills for this, but if you join with a team of other people, then someone eventually in that team will have that skill that you need, and then together you can achieve something that’s bigger and better.

00:40:07:10 – 00:40:11:01

Ramandeep Nijjar

And yeah, amazing, right?

00:40:11:03 – 00:40:21:16

Steven Schauer

So you said the film was Young Voices for nature. Did I get that correct? Correct. So is that available to be seen? Yeah. Can we post that as part of the show notes for people to see.

00:40:21:18 – 00:40:42:13

Ramandeep Nijjar

So it’s on YouTube. So I’ll share the link with you. So it’s about a, it’s a 20 minute, short film, but it’s all it was made by young people for young people. So there was wonderful staff from RSPB. So that’s a Royal Society protection for birds in the UK. WWF in the UK and the National Trust and.

00:40:42:14 – 00:40:46:10

Steven Schauer

The World Wildlife Foundation for for folks who may not know.

00:40:46:10 – 00:41:10:00

Ramandeep Nijjar

Yeah, there’s a lot of good. Yeah. And then the National Trust in the UK and then there was a creative agency called World Pencil. So therefore staff teams basically came together to then be able to facilitate it, because often we’d have it was all done on zoom, but we’d have about 40 young people who all got that energy and got these ideas going off, but they don’t know where to put it or how to structure it.

00:41:10:00 – 00:41:35:04

Ramandeep Nijjar

So that’s why those staff came in to then moderate it, to make sure we stayed on track to actually be able to, bring the film together. But I think it was really nice because they never said something was a bad idea or not a good idea. This is more like, how can we adapt as many of these ideas together to have all of your visions, your ideas together, to make something special?

00:41:35:06 – 00:41:37:09

Steven Schauer

So I can’t wait to see it. Looking forward to watching.

00:41:37:09 – 00:41:55:18

Ramandeep Nijjar

It’s been, for me. It was really great as well, just to find like young people who were, wanting to use their voice. to make a difference. So since then, like 12 of us from that film project are now working on a new project, which is a unique podcast because we found each other through, that project.

00:41:55:18 – 00:42:14:10

Ramandeep Nijjar

And we were first and originally a bit worried, like, how will we actually get funding to actually make this happen? And then in April, another organization in the UK called The Woodlands Trust, they have a competition which is called Igniting Innovation, where they any young people have got any sort of like startup projects that they need funding for.

00:42:14:10 – 00:42:32:06

Ramandeep Nijjar

You can apply and you can enter this competition. And then in April, the final shorts selected for you will then pitch their ideas to a few of their judges. And then it’s like a it’s kind of like Dragon’s Den. You’re like, can we have this money? This is what we bring. Like please, please, let’s. Yeah.

00:42:32:08 – 00:42:44:02

Steven Schauer

I think it’s a similar show called Shark Tank. And in the, in the, in the US, I think where you’re pitching your ideas to some folks who will, you know, support you or not support you depending on your progress.

00:42:44:02 – 00:43:05:10

Ramandeep Nijjar

Because it was a pot of money and there were six groups we all knew that we were going to get some funding, but something what was the level of funding? and then and then they also they pay you up with a mentor. So we, they were really sweet, actually. We were all very nervous, like, oh, we’ve got a little cute cause, like, how are we going to approach this together?

00:43:05:10 – 00:43:21:19

Ramandeep Nijjar

What do you all like when we all have that same vision or same professional, same direction? We want to go? And I think it just came out. And then in the end, we know from the what, 4,000 pounds funding and we’ve now just launched our website. So if you are interested I can share that with us. But that’s more.

00:43:21:20 – 00:43:22:21

Steven Schauer

Yes please do.

00:43:23:00 – 00:43:42:04

Ramandeep Nijjar

Yeah, yeah. So we are youth storytelling for podcast about nature, but what we’re really keen on is just to we know a lot of young people and a lot of us are on this journey. So we when I podcast, hopefully we’ll couple people on that journey so that they’re not established people. But how can people see them on that journey at the start of it?

00:43:42:04 – 00:44:05:08

Ramandeep Nijjar

And all of them have different interests. And also a lot of young people might, have the idea that you have to be fully into nature to care about it. What is that? You don’t need to just be something when you walk to school or something. That’s a side hobby. Like we need everyone to do that small part to make the difference for nature and planet beauty.

00:44:05:10 – 00:44:30:11

Steven Schauer

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, that is an amazing amount of work that you’ve done in two years. This Earth’s, you know, somewhere around 18 months to 24 months. That is phenomenal. you know, I talk to the folks, you know, you know, much older than you that probably don’t have a CV as that leg. These so far, so, really incredible.

00:44:30:11 – 00:44:43:07

Steven Schauer

I can’t wait to support your podcast when you get it up and running and, and listen to it and like it and follow it. Make sure you’re getting that support as well and encourage everybody to maybe listening to this podcast, to do the same thing.

00:44:43:12 – 00:44:43:20

Ramandeep Nijjar

you need to.

00:44:43:20 – 00:44:44:23

Steven Schauer

Support young people.

00:44:45:01 – 00:45:08:15

Ramandeep Nijjar

Like me. I’m part of a team of like, other young people. And I think that’s what’s really great is all of us astronomy highway in the sector, we all support one another. So if anyone sees an opportunity, we’ll share it. We’ll, I think that’s what I will with family. lovely is because I with anything I do, I always want to share it with other people or share opportunities with other people because, often people say like, why do you do that?

00:45:08:15 – 00:45:27:15

Ramandeep Nijjar

You don’t want to just keep the opportunity to yourself. And I said, but why not? If there’s someone out there that could be perfect for that opportunity, like, right. Why I share it? Because like, not every opportunity might not be right for me, but there might be someone that I’m connected with that it’s perfect for. And then they can then put an application in and then maybe get that opportunity.

00:45:27:18 – 00:45:30:12

Ramandeep Nijjar

So why not share?

00:45:30:14 – 00:45:47:01

Steven Schauer

That’s such a healthy and beautiful way of of thinking about, you know, how to live your life, you know, connecting other people to opportunities because your opportunities are going to come to you and they might, you know, find something that, is better for you as well. So what a what a smart way.

00:45:47:01 – 00:45:48:02

Ramandeep Nijjar

And, and I think that’s also a.

00:45:48:03 – 00:45:48:21

Steven Schauer

Healthy way of.

00:45:48:21 – 00:46:09:06

Ramandeep Nijjar

Looking at music. Obviously, I’m saying like a lot of smaller projects, but I think when I can. Yeah, if you do one thing, someone might lead you into the direction of the next thing. And being open to that, I guess, is really, really helped me with a lot of the things that I do and just keeping people that keep me connected with people just, I guess, being open to what’s out there.

00:46:09:06 – 00:46:27:06

Ramandeep Nijjar

Because often people don’t know about all these things happening, but all you have to do is look a little bit and you never know that. That’s the advantage of the internet. The possibilities are endless. And even like I’m obviously telling you about the projects I’ve got successful, there’s a long list of ones, a long list of opportunities that have not been successful.

00:46:27:06 – 00:46:43:22

Ramandeep Nijjar

But I think it’s just knowing that you can give it a go, put the application in, and even though it’s hard, if you get rejected like it might not be the right opportunity for you and something else will come your way. And I’m still learning this just because every time I put an application is I feel really passionate.

00:46:43:22 – 00:46:57:09

Ramandeep Nijjar

I’m like, oh, this would be amazing to be a part of and I really care so much. But I think it’s taking a step back and knowing it’s okay if it doesn’t happen, because I’ve seen it before. That the right thing will hopefully come along when it is.

00:46:57:11 – 00:47:19:22

Steven Schauer

Absolutely. That is, try and putting yourself out there that opened those those doors at the right time. So Ramandeep what is as we’re kind of getting, you know, towards towards the end here of the conversation, what’s your call to action? What would you, you know, want folks who are listening to this or watching this, what would you want them to do?

00:47:19:22 – 00:47:34:16

Steven Schauer

How do they how can they support you or the different activities you’re in? Or what would you suggest that they they do? So I’d love to hear your thoughts, about what people can, can do to get engaged or get involved or be supportive of of the many things that you’re, so passionate about.

00:47:34:16 – 00:47:58:13

Ramandeep Nijjar

Definitely. So I’d say, firstly, if you want to get connected with me, you can you can share my LinkedIn. And that’s probably the best place to get connected with me. I’d say for any of the organizations, you could just look them up on, on the internet, or we can share links to them. I know a lot of my UK focus, but I’d say wherever you are, there’s probably whatever you want to do.

00:47:58:13 – 00:48:21:06

Ramandeep Nijjar

There’s like, lot of opportunities. So just keep an eye out for them, look out for them. And then I guess, also, don’t be afraid to put yourself out there because often people are afraid to ask the questions all sorts of something. But you never know where it might lead you to. So safe as a community garden group or, I don’t know, a beginner birdwatching group, and you’re like, oh, I don’t know what it would be like.

00:48:21:10 – 00:48:53:10

Ramandeep Nijjar

Just please take this step because once you’re in and once you find someone like, you never know what the benefits will be. And I guess also a lot of people get overwhelmed with the nature and the client process. And really, I think it’s too big to do anything. But if we all do a small thing, like whatever it might be, whether it’s talk to someone sharing an article, as I said before, like reading a book or writing a poem like some small action, if we all do it collectively will make a big impact.

00:48:53:12 – 00:49:17:08

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I guess just so if you know any young people like encouraging them to use their voice, just because I speak to a lot of young people and they, they have a lot of ideas, but they don’t have the confidence. So I think maybe backing them and knowing that they have the support and they don’t need to have everything figured out, like it’s okay for them to not know, like I’m talking a lot about things, but I’m still always learning.

00:49:17:08 – 00:49:36:04

Ramandeep Nijjar

And we’ve all been kind enough to invite me on your podcast to actually share my thoughts. I think just giving young people that support because I think as soon as people feel find that confidence within themselves, that that self-esteem, that the world is that voice, they’re like, who knows where they might go? They might then spread that, confidence with other people.

00:49:36:04 – 00:50:00:02

Ramandeep Nijjar

Like, that’s what I do in a lot of my things. Like I’m really passionate. So I think of like, how can I use my spaces that I’m in to help create more opportunities for more young people to do that? So then they continue to then share it with other people. And I think just also knowing that there is like we were saying about this before, like there is hope and there was always a way forward and positive reference.

00:50:00:02 – 00:50:22:20

Ramandeep Nijjar

And if you feel like you’re alone in being somewhere, like in a certain way, you know, there’s so many online communities out there, like, for example, where you’re all the way in America, I’m in the UK, but we both have that same passion for wanting to bring positive change, care a lot about sustainability and empowerment, and we connected through a virtual alliance.

00:50:22:22 – 00:50:42:13

Ramandeep Nijjar

So with social media that obviously there were some negatives. But I think also like you can connect with such incredible people. So yes, I guess, yeah, look out for those alliances, those networks, those opportunities and who knows who you might find or what opportunity might be out there for you.

00:50:42:15 – 00:51:02:05

Steven Schauer

Well, that’s a that’s a great list of things. Can the folks can do a definitely I’ll talk with you offline cause I do want to get all the links to the organizations that you talked about, so we can share those in the show notes. And, you know, the, the connection and taking that step, all of that is, is, hard to do sometimes to get that first step.

00:51:02:05 – 00:51:22:17

Steven Schauer

But it’s so important to do it, like you said. And and he touched on hope a little bit. And, and the importance of, of holding on to, to hope. And that’s how I’m ending every podcast episode is, is talking with the guests about hope. hope is this idea that we can envision a better future and that we can do something to get there.

00:51:22:17 – 00:51:42:21

Steven Schauer

It’s not that it won’t be difficult and that we won’t have, you know, setbacks and challenges, but there’s a thought of a better future and a feeling of agency that I can do something to get to that better future. So I want to ask you a little bit about what makes you hopeful. and so I’m going to throw three questions at you.

00:51:42:21 – 00:52:04:00

Steven Schauer

And, just kind of give me your answers. This isn’t, you know, kind of a rapid response, kind of question. And I look forward to hearing what your what your thoughts are. So the first question is, what is your vision for a better future? And it can be for you personally, professionally or for the world. Like what?

00:52:04:00 – 00:52:08:20

Steven Schauer

What are you hopeful for? What’s your vision for a better future?

00:52:08:22 – 00:52:33:05

Ramandeep Nijjar

well, it’s a big question. I think I want my vision would be people to kind of, just because I think people often you see in the news, there’s so much negativity and hate, but we don’t need that in this world. But we need more kindness, love, support. and even if it’s just a simple conversation or just a simple smile that you never know where it could lead to.

00:52:33:05 – 00:52:49:23

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I think just. Yeah, I think just we need more positivity. So I’d say encourage you where you can to be that positive person. And you never know, that person might see you maybe having a really bad day and they just need a little pick me up and then they see you being really happy. And then, it spreads that joy to them.

00:52:50:01 – 00:53:09:21

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I think just. Yeah, I guess, often I found, like a lot of people, you see, not people want to, there’s a lot of division or people think like they’re always competing with one another. Whereas I don’t know why we do that where everyone can if we’re like, I get it in like the corporate world. And then often, like with how fast paced, you know, everything.

00:53:09:21 – 00:53:44:02

Ramandeep Nijjar

Everyone always seems to think that they need to do better than everyone. But I think together, I’ve seen if you’re part of a bigger picture or a bigger difference, we can all make a big change together. And if you find those communities as teams, you can all strive together. So I guess connecting with other people and just sharing whatever skills or activity you have because someone will benefit from them that, you know, like be found with a lot of alliances, like when you found that thing that you’re really interested in, there’ll be someone out there that would benefit from you sharing that, and then they might share their expertise with you.

00:53:44:02 – 00:54:13:15

Ramandeep Nijjar

And then together you’re both benefiting and both growing. So I guess sharing more. Yeah. Just yeah. Guessing. Yeah. Maybe being more kind. And then also I guess also I guess sharing the narrative is also sometimes okay to take a slow day or take a breather because I know I’m not as good as that. But I think when you do take these moments just to actually step back and enjoy life, that you can actually appreciate a lot more like the things that you have.

00:54:13:15 – 00:54:28:17

Ramandeep Nijjar

And yeah, just just be grateful for what life can offer you. I guess we always, when you’re in that fast pace all the time, you don’t often, sometimes take time to actually realize all the amazing things that you’re doing or that you have. I guess.

00:54:28:19 – 00:54:52:05

Steven Schauer

Yeah. So I think you answered the second question already, but I’ll I’ll put it out there just to see if there’s anything else you want to add. So you have a vision, for a future where there’s people that are more kind and more loving and, and, taking time to enjoy and appreciate and be grateful for, for life and helpful to each other.

00:54:52:07 – 00:54:58:09

Steven Schauer

the. Why is that your vision? I think they said. I think you already answered that, but is there anything else you’d like to say? around.

00:54:58:09 – 00:55:16:12

Ramandeep Nijjar

I think just because, if people find that complex within themselves, it doesn’t just help them. It helps everyone around them, because then they’re more likely to then want to share what they can with the world. And I think I, I’ve, I’ve seen it with the change make the lens of other communities and part of like it’s infectious.

00:55:16:12 – 00:55:47:20

Ramandeep Nijjar

Like you just feel so much more motivation and more inspiration when someone’s just so kind or sharing like something that just, set that fire within them and you just it’s contagious. Like, whenever I like, I love something like Ted talks, which are, like, talks from when they’re like, short 10 to 20 minute talks. Yeah, experts. And when you just see someone, that’s where they’re meant to be and they’re like sharing that those passions, those insights for the world, you just I don’t know, it just there’s something within you and you just feel like, oh, I can achieve anything that I want to do.

00:55:47:20 – 00:56:09:02

Ramandeep Nijjar

And I think more people need to feel that feeling because as you say, it’s not going to be easy. Like if you want to chase your goals to, chase your dreams, but who knows what you can achieve if you just set on that journey for going after them. Or as often people don’t start that journey. And we’re not saying it will be easy, but who knows what’s on the other side if you don’t actually take the step, right?

00:56:09:04 – 00:56:12:06

Ramandeep Nijjar

Go for it. Right?

00:56:12:08 – 00:56:37:06

Steven Schauer

So last question. imagine your future vision is a reality that the world is a nicer, kinder place and and there’s less hatred and division, and we’re cooperating together and, trying to make the world a better place. So your your vision is real. It’s happened. How do you feel? What’s what’s your feeling now?

00:56:37:08 – 00:56:59:11

Ramandeep Nijjar

I guess, like, happy, to say it’s come true, and I just, I don’t know, I just think. Yeah, I just see what you see. Pockets of that. It’s just. Yeah, it makes you happy and it makes the world more positive. and I guess. Yeah. Just uplifted and, Yeah. Just the thing, just. I don’t know how to describe.

00:56:59:11 – 00:57:18:16

Ramandeep Nijjar

I just feel that you have that really nice fuzzy feeling that everyone always really likes and just feel warm, and you just probably feel really content. And. Yeah, I think it’s just, a really lovely feeling when people are just really like. I’ve had it when I’ve been TPU environment and it’s just been the atmosphere been really loving.

00:57:18:16 – 00:57:32:20

Ramandeep Nijjar

And you, even after the event or the day after, you probably still have that same like uplifting, positive energy from that event. Because that atmosphere, that energy just kind of stayed with you throughout. Yeah.

00:57:32:22 – 00:57:59:01

Steven Schauer

Well, Ramandeep, thank you so much for your time today. it’s been a real joy for me to get to, to know you and to be with you in that warm, fuzzy feeling you’re describing. I’m kind of feeling it right now. I fed off of your positive energy and. And just your enthusiasm for everything that you’re doing and the life that you’re leading and I’m really, really grateful for the opportunity to have, talked with you today.

00:57:59:01 – 00:58:08:00

Steven Schauer

So thank you for your time. And, I look forward to sharing your journey and, you know, helping promote all the things that you’re working on. So, so.

00:58:08:04 – 00:58:08:12

Ramandeep Nijjar

So I’m.

00:58:08:12 – 00:58:10:06

Steven Schauer

Very I’ll leave you with the last word.

00:58:10:08 – 00:58:35:21

Ramandeep Nijjar

Grateful as well for you letting me speak on your podcast and yeah, just getting to share my thoughts and many thoughts and, experiences with you. And yeah, I have the same feeling to, just to. Yeah. Getting to speak to 1 to 1 and with you it’s been really like, positive and really uplifting. So thank you again for letting me be on your podcast.

00:58:35:23 – 00:58:54:10

Steven Schauer

All right. Well, cheers and best wishes. for everything that you’re, you have in front of you, it’s, sounds like you’ve got a great adventure that you’re on. So thank you again. And I look forward to, staying in touch with you as as you unfold your journey. So thank you. And and we’ll talk later. Goodbye.

00:58:55:11 – 00:59:13:21

Steven Schauer

Well. All right. We’re at the end of episode number three of story sustain us. I want to extend my heartfelt thanks to Ramandeep Nijjar for joining me today. I have to say to me, Ramandeep’s call for action shows a maturity and wisdom beyond her years, right? I mean, come on now. How can you not be impressed by her?

00:59:13:23 – 00:59:37:03

Steven Schauer

Her emphasis on kindness and love and support and positivity. That was really moving to me. And, it got me thinking. It got me thinking about what life might have been like for her, or for other young people who’ve had to grow up in these last two decades, and just how different it was from my experience growing up in the 70s and 80s.

00:59:37:05 – 00:59:53:18

Steven Schauer

you know, I didn’t have to deal with social media, growing up, that just wasn’t a thing that I had to worry about. You know, you already have the pressures in middle school and high school and college of trying to fit in and figure out who you are and what you, you know, believe in and who your friend groups are and all that.

00:59:53:18 – 01:00:18:06

Steven Schauer

There’s that’s still there for kids today. But you add on. just the, the trouble that social media can bring into that. And, you know, Surgeon General’s thinking about putting a warning on social media because it can damage the development of youth brains and emotions. Right. So that’s a real thing kids have had to deal with these last couple decades that just didn’t exist when I was growing up.

01:00:18:07 – 01:00:42:18

Steven Schauer

You know, and we had the Cold War right there was the US and Soviet Union. That was a thing. And there was real threats, or at least the sense of a real threat about what, nuclear war would mean. you know, the end of of life, basically. So that threat was there. but it seemed so distant and far off in the last couple decades that nuclear threat is still kind of there, right?

01:00:42:18 – 01:01:05:00

Steven Schauer

There’s still tensions between, you know, national countries and powers and United States and Russia and other folks are still kind of at each other’s throats a bit. So there’s a second Cold War. It seems like brewing in these last couple of decades. but there’ve been real wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and, Ukraine and now Gaza.

01:01:05:02 – 01:01:31:01

Steven Schauer

you know, everything that’s going on there, there’s been this real things going on, real violence going on, that the youth of the last couple of decades of have had to experience in, in, in, in the United States, in addition, that real time of violence. you know, I did duck and cover drills in elementary school because of this nuclear war that could happen, which seems so distant.

01:01:31:01 – 01:02:01:05

Steven Schauer

So the duck and cover drills, you know, we’re not that scary. But kids, at least in the United States, are doing active shooter drills, right? Because that threat is real. They know it’s real. They’ve seen it happen time and time and time again. at least the United States. And I imagine, you know, a kid in elementary school or middle school doing an active shooter drill actually feels that fear more than I ever did doing a duck and cover drill.

01:02:01:06 – 01:02:26:10

Steven Schauer

You know, in the 70s and 80s. So there’s just different threats today that seem much more real. I think that the youth have had to, to deal with, and on top of all of that is the real threat of climate change that I think the youth of today seem to understand better the threats of it. Right, where we’re already experiencing extreme droughts and storms and hurricanes and wildfires.

01:02:26:10 – 01:02:51:21

Steven Schauer

And, you know, the evidence that climate change is happening and the real threat that in the next few decades, it’s going to get worse, I think for the youth of today, they recognize that as a threat to their future. So they’ve got that to deal with as well. So it just it’s hard for me to wrap my mind around and go, wow, what what would it have been like to grow up in these last 20 years?

01:02:51:22 – 01:03:13:02

Steven Schauer

And what would I be doing? You know, how would I be handling that? You know, which is what makes, Ramandeep’s story so moving to me. I find her to be an incredibly impressive young person. you know, she’s just putting yourself out there, getting involved, creating leading new organizations and making a real difference at such a young age.

01:03:13:02 – 01:03:37:18

Steven Schauer

And it’s so impressive to me. it really brings me immense joy and optimism, knowing that Ramandeep and other young activists like her are out there striving to make the future a better place, not just for themselves, but, you know, clearly from the way she shared about, you know, making alliances and and bringing other people along. She’s trying to make the world a better place for everyone, creatures and humans and everything.

01:03:37:18 – 01:04:08:14

Steven Schauer

And that’s just, you know, again, brings brings me joy knowing that she’s out there and other youth activists like her are out there, just trying to make the world a better place. So I can’t wait to support her new, youth center podcast, Generation Nature. please go, check out the show notes for this episode where you’ll be able to get links to that website and every other organization and activity that she talked about, from the film that she was in and everything else is go check out all the links on the show notes.

01:04:08:14 – 01:04:29:21

Steven Schauer

And, you know, I encourage you to support all that she’s doing as well. as Ramandeep mentioned, she pointed out, we all need to open doors and provide young people with opportunities to find and use their voices. So I, for one, heard that message, and I look forward to bringing more youth activists on the show in the future to help with that.

01:04:29:22 – 01:05:04:22

Steven Schauer

So with that, speaking of future shows, when I give you a quick plug for next week’s episode, my guest on stories says saying this next week is an urban ecologist who is studying and advocating for the protection of all amphibians. So check it out. You’re going to discover just how cool amphibians are. just in case you haven’t thought about that lately, and you’ll learn about some steps that you can take to protect freshwater ecosystems, which are vital for the survival of turtles and salamanders and frogs and even reptiles like snakes.

01:05:05:00 – 01:05:22:21

Steven Schauer

So you’re not gonna want to miss it, so check it out. Tune in on July 9th wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts, and please make sure you like subscribe and follow. Stories sustain us. I would really appreciate it. I’m working hard on this show, and if you enjoy it, your support would be, much appreciated.

01:05:22:21 – 01:05:40:22

Steven Schauer

So you can also find, everything else and episodes, related to this, show on our website, story sustainer. Com. So until next time, I’m Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself and each other. Take care.

Listen to the podcast or watch the full interview.

Summary

Dr. Maura Dudley shares her journey from growing up in Pittsburgh to becoming an urban ecologist at the Amphibian Foundation. She developed a passion for environmental conservation and animal welfare from her family’s influence. Her love for turtles led her to study freshwater ecosystems and pursue a PhD in ecology. She emphasizes the importance of finding a job that you love and never feels like work. The Amphibian Foundation, a nonprofit organization, focuses on amphibian conservation and education. The Amphibian Foundation’s mission is to help conserve amphibians, which are globally threatened. They started with the frosted flatwood salamander, a charismatic species native to the longleaf pine ecosystem in the Southeastern U.S. The foundation now focuses on breeding the frosted flatwood salamander, gopher frog, and striped newt. They also conduct urban surveys in the Atlanta area due to COVID restrictions. The surveys monitor reptiles and amphibians in public parks and partner organizations. The foundation is studying the marbled salamander and spotted salamander, which live in ephemeral wetlands. They are investigating how grazing by sheep and community science projects can help conserve amphibians. To support amphibians, individuals can donate to wildlife organizations, support land conservation efforts, have native plants in their yards, reduce chemical use, and keep cats indoors. The vision for a better future is one where all people have equal access to resources and coexist with diverse species, fostering empathy and compassion.

About the Guest

Dr. Maura Dudley currently serves as the Urban Ecologist for the Amphibian Foundation, a nonprofit in Atlanta, GA whose aim is to develop solutions to the global amphibian extinction crisis.  Maura also teaches ecology courses at a liberal arts and science university in Atlanta.  Through her research, Maura is interested in learning more about how humans and wildlife can coexist in urban spaces.  She believes that education and immersion in nature are powerful tools for fostering connection with wildlife.  She is passionate about helping people to find connection with their local ecosystems, particularly streams and wetlands.  Maura lives in the Atlanta metro area with her husband and three children.

Show Notes

Amphibian Foundation: https://www.amphibianfoundation.org/

Keywords

Maura Dudley, Pittsburgh, environmental conservation, animal welfare, turtles, freshwater ecosystems, PhD in ecology, urban ecologist, Amphibian Foundation, nonprofit organization, amphibian conservation, education, Amphibian Foundation, conservation, threatened species, frosted flatwood salamander, longleaf pine ecosystem, breeding, urban surveys, marbled salamander, spotted salamander, ephemeral wetlands, grazing, community science, support amphibians, vision for a better future, empathy, compassion

Transcript

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:22:18

Steven Schauer

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to another exciting episode of Stories Sustain Us. I’m your host, Steven Schauer. And today we have a truly inspiring guest on the show. I’m thrilled to have ecologist Dr. Maura Dudley on the show to share her journey with us. We’ll talk about how family influence can play a significant role in shaping a passion for environmental conservation.

00:00:22:20 – 00:00:52:02

Steven Schauer

And we’ll learn about Dr. Dudley’s research, which focuses on freshwater ecosystems and the protection of these important habitats. We’ll also learn about some of the amazing creatures she is working to save. For example, did you know turtles have remained relatively unchanged over evolutionary time? And that salamanders get this are really cool. You’re going to want to stick around to learn more about these truly fascinating creatures as we dive into her wonderful work.

00:00:52:04 – 00:01:20:06

Steven Schauer

Let me take a moment to properly introduce Dr. Dudley, and then we’ll jump into the interview. At an early age, Dr. Maura Dudley developed a love for turtles, which, by the way, are one of my favorite creatures. This passion for turtles led her to study freshwater ecosystems and pursue a PhD in ecology. Dr. Dudley’s vision for a better future is one where all people have equal access to resources and coexist with diverse species, fostering empathy and compassion.

00:01:20:08 – 00:01:45:12

Steven Schauer

She emphasizes the importance of finding a job that you love because it will never feel like work. And that’s the truth as I see it, too. One of Dr. Dudley’s current jobs is with the Amphibian Foundation, a nonprofit organization focused on amphibian conservation and education with a mission to help conserve amphibians. Sadly, if you didn’t know it, they are globally threatened in just a few minutes.

00:01:45:12 – 00:02:10:16

Steven Schauer

You’ll learn more from Dr. Dudley about all the amazing work the Amphibian Foundation is doing in the longleaf pine and rural grazing ecosystems in the southeastern United States, as well as the urban environment in Atlanta, Georgia. So let’s jump into the interview. Get ready to be inspired by Dr. Maura Dudley’s incredible work here on Story Sustain Us, where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

00:02:10:16 – 00:02:21:13

Steven Schauer

All right. Well, welcome, Dr. Dudley. How are you doing, Maura? It’s been a long time since, I’ve seen you in person, but it’s great to see you online.

00:02:21:15 – 00:02:24:01

Dr. Maura Dudley

It’s great to see you, too. Great to see you, too, Steven.

00:02:24:06 – 00:02:41:04

Steven Schauer

Yeah. so for everybody listening or watching, just for a little bit of transparency, I knew, Dr. Dudley Maura. And when she was still Maura years ago. And I was trying to figure it out. Do you remember how long ago that that was? I was thinking it was at least a decade.

00:02:41:06 – 00:02:46:10

Dr. Maura Dudley

2020 10 to 2012. Yeah. When we when I worked for the San Antonio.

00:02:46:12 – 00:03:09:03

Steven Schauer

Yeah. So dozen years ago already was, was the last time, we had kind of regular contact and, and that was pre PhD and pre. Yeah. Three children and pre exciting life that you’re, that you’re living out in Atlanta. It’s been a a joy to kind of watch you kind of loss of and grow into this.

00:03:09:04 – 00:03:28:11

Steven Schauer

You know everything that you have going on in your life. you know one of the benefits of social media, there’s so many not so good things about social media, but that’s certainly one of the nice things is that I’ve been able to keep up with the over the years. And and I’m so happy for you and your family and everything that you’ve been able to accomplish over the years since we last worked together.

00:03:28:13 – 00:03:32:19

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah, I totally agree about social media. I think it’s one of the best parts about it.

00:03:32:19 – 00:03:53:07

Steven Schauer

So yeah, so let’s do what we do on the show. And and we’re going to learn a little bit about you. before we get into some of the things that your you’re doing professionally these days. So tell us more, tell me a little bit about yourself. How did you get to be, Dr. Dudley, where did you grow up?

00:03:53:07 – 00:03:59:07

Steven Schauer

What was life like for you as a kid? What were some, you know, kind of major milestones along the way?

00:03:59:09 – 00:04:23:10

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah. So, I’ve been thinking about this, and I grew up in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And, to me, there’s sort of two sides to where I came to this point right now. One is for the environmental side, and one is sort of the animal loving side. So the environmental side I traced back to my great grandmother, who was a young adult during the Great Depression.

00:04:23:12 – 00:04:55:06

Dr. Maura Dudley

And because of, out of necessity, growing up in that time, she was very conscious of not wasting things. Yeah. And that, consciousness was passed to my grandmother, who was then passed to my mom and passed me. And so I kind of grew up in a household where we were very conscious about not wasting, reusing, recycling. And, there’s this really great story about, my, my dad and his support of me in this.

00:04:55:06 – 00:05:14:19

Dr. Maura Dudley

And, when I was in middle school, they let middle schoolers kind of work at the church. Bingo. Yeah. And one of our jobs was at the end of the night, we would go and take all the garbage bags that the individual garbage bags people collected and put them in the garbage. Well, I went around to to the tables and I would see all these cans recyclable.

00:05:14:21 – 00:05:32:22

Dr. Maura Dudley

And so I just got a bag and I started pulling them out and, I would have this big bag at the end of the night, and I would put it in the back of my dad’s Subaru. And inevitably there was always leak in the bag. He got soda all over the back of his car or the trunk of his car.

00:05:33:00 – 00:06:03:17

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah. And yet he was so determined not to squash that. That passion that I had for making a difference with these, you know, this one, these bags of soda cans that he never stopped me or, you know, kept me from that. So that’s kind of the environmental side. And, kind of how I got that, when it comes to the animal side, I grew up always loving animals, and I always loved animals that no one else liked.

00:06:03:19 – 00:06:34:09

Dr. Maura Dudley

And one of them in groups in particular, was snakes. And of course, this was not my mom’s favorite. idea. I begged her for a pet snake, and although she did not allow me to have a pet snake, what my mom did was when I this this interest in snakes continued. And after my freshman year in college, my mom, who worked at Pitt, said, hey, I can get you into a herpetology class for free.

00:06:34:09 – 00:06:58:19

Dr. Maura Dudley

But, the room and board isn’t covered. But I found out that if I did dishes at the field station that I could pay for my room and board and take this herpetology passport. So I did, because it just because I loved I love snakes. And I quickly learned that, I’m too slow for snakes as a, as a as an animal for a career.

00:06:58:21 – 00:07:23:08

Dr. Maura Dudley

but I had never really considered turtles. I was fascinated by them. It was really my first interaction with turtles. And so I that was after my freshman year in college. My sophomore year, I worked at a field station, and I convinced my advisor I came to her and said, I want to work with turtles. And, she said, well, I don’t know anything about turtles, but okay.

00:07:23:10 – 00:07:50:07

Dr. Maura Dudley

because I was so determined. so I did this, study kind of looking at the nesting and habitat for turtles. I then in my master’s program again, convinced an advisor who knew nothing about turtles to let me do something with turtles because I really loved them. and so then I finished up my master’s degree and, for kind of other personal reasons.

00:07:50:07 – 00:08:26:15

Dr. Maura Dudley

Then my life ended up moving to San Antonio, which is where I joined, the stand Antonio River authority, my first real job. so then was my first real manager. and I realized that not all managers were as great as Steven, but, Yeah. No, it’s really great experience. And what it taught me and, subsequent experience after I just moved to Atlanta was, I was the education coordinator, and I realized how much I love education, how much that was something that spoke to me, when I moved to Atlanta, I couldn’t start my PhD right away.

00:08:26:15 – 00:08:50:05

Dr. Maura Dudley

So I worked for an organization called Blue Heron Nature Preserve, and I was I didn’t have a title there. I was doing education. I was a grant writer at one point. and, again, really fed into that. So then when it came to my PhD, you’re wondering, Maura, did you do turtles? And I really can get.

00:08:50:05 – 00:08:52:20

Steven Schauer

A lot questions, actually, but that’s one of them. Yes.

00:08:52:22 – 00:08:55:06

Dr. Maura Dudley

should should I let you ask?

00:08:55:08 – 00:09:08:14

Steven Schauer

Finish. Finish where you’re going with with the with your PhD story. And then we’ll backtrack in time. A little bit because I’ve got some notes here. But how about I got it. I’ve got some more questions to ask you about this, but yeah. Finish your finish. Where you were going with.

00:09:08:14 – 00:09:08:22

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah.

00:09:08:23 – 00:09:11:02

Steven Schauer

So yes. Did you do turtles for your age?

00:09:11:04 – 00:09:37:07

Dr. Maura Dudley

I didn’t, and the reason for that was that when I really reflected on I thought, what is going to help turtles the most? And what I felt was that if I studied the ecosystems in which they lived, their habitats, and I hope to protect those that that would ultimately help turtles more than me getting a degree in herpetology and studying them directly.

00:09:37:09 – 00:09:57:16

Dr. Maura Dudley

And so I went to the University of Georgia, which is one of the few schools that has a PhD in ecology. And, I got my PhD in ecology. I actually really wanted to work in urban systems when I was there. And it was it was really helpful when I first started that I would get to work in urban systems.

00:09:57:16 – 00:10:16:18

Dr. Maura Dudley

But, the one thing that everybody knows about research is you go where there’s funding, and there was funding to work in the middle of the southern Appalachian forests. So that’s where I worked for my PhD. And, did you want me to get to today? And then you can ask me the questions, or do you want to ask them?

00:10:16:18 – 00:10:17:07

Dr. Maura Dudley

Now.

00:10:17:09 – 00:10:39:02

Steven Schauer

Let me go back in time a little bit. Yeah, yeah. sure. working in the southern Appalachians. Yeah, that’s that’s where we will eventually catch back up to that, I’m sure. Okay. So go back in in time a little bit more again. So are with your your family. Are you an only child. You have siblings. It sounds like you had mentioned your mother worked at Pitt.

00:10:39:02 – 00:10:55:16

Steven Schauer

So, you know, tell me a little bit more if you don’t mind. Whatever you’re comfortable sharing about your your family and upbringing, because it sounds like you had a very incredibly supportive family with the story you shared about that and then the the help and direction your mom gave you in early college years.

00:10:55:18 – 00:11:31:18

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah. I so I’m the oldest of two. I have a younger brother. and except for what I sort of indicated in terms of the, influence that my great grandmother had in terms of sort of lifestyle. My my parents, my mom is the scientist. she, is in public health. and so she has really been supportive in terms of guiding me in terms of the science and the education part of of pursuing a degree in science, particularly as a woman.

00:11:31:20 – 00:12:09:06

Dr. Maura Dudley

and some of the hurdles, that she faced, she was able to help me with, my dad, is a lawyer, and he’s also the mayor of our local community where I grew up. And my dad, although he didn’t really have any science background, he is someone who encourages people to dream and supports those dreams. So, he always supported me from, you know, kind of a an emotional standpoint of never wanting me to hold back, always pushing me to go for whatever it was.

00:12:09:06 – 00:12:15:23

Dr. Maura Dudley

So, yeah, it was really important. Both of those. Yeah. What are things about my parents?

00:12:16:01 – 00:12:42:00

Steven Schauer

Great, great combination of that. Loving support from your father and that emotional support that he was providing you to dream big and and get there and then just all of that, undoubtedly, incredibly insightful information that your mom could provide you. But, you know, her having already paved the way into her scientific career as a female. And I can only imagine the hurdles that she had to face.

00:12:42:02 – 00:12:49:16

Steven Schauer

yeah. In in her era of, you know, getting on with, with her professional career. So what a what a great conversation.

00:12:49:16 – 00:13:09:14

Dr. Maura Dudley

My mom, my mom got her PhD when I was, I think when I was six. So she did it well while she had kids, which was, really important. And, it was really important for me. Then when I was getting my PhD, I had kids while I was in my PhD. And to be able to have that role model.

00:13:09:16 – 00:13:23:23

Steven Schauer

Yeah, yeah. How wonderful. I one, thank you for sharing that bit about your family. That that that’s just a great story. And I’m, I’m, I don’t know in all the years you know two years that we worked together and everything. I don’t know that I ever knew that about your family. Shame on me for not asking that all those years ago.

00:13:23:23 – 00:13:29:01

Steven Schauer

But thank you for telling me now. That’s a great story. And I’m happy for you.

00:13:29:03 – 00:13:48:11

Dr. Maura Dudley

thank you. And actually, let me add one more thing. Yeah. Please, please. When I did my turtle work in, it was in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. My parents flew out to visit me that summer. this was my second year in undergrad, and I have a picture somewhere of my parents wearing, these mosquito net.

00:13:48:12 – 00:13:48:23

Steven Schauer

Sure.

00:13:49:01 – 00:13:57:18

Dr. Maura Dudley

They came out with me to the fields because they wanted to see what I was doing. And these turtles that I was working with. So. Nice. yeah.

00:13:57:20 – 00:14:03:01

Steven Schauer

Yeah, yeah, there’s definitely some mosquitoes out there in that area, so.

00:14:03:03 – 00:14:04:20

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yes. Yes.

00:14:04:22 – 00:14:24:06

Steven Schauer

So before we get to turtles, another question that, I have to know there’s got to be a story here. You at one point said you learned you were too slow for snakes. How did you learn that? Because that sounds like a very specific thing to say, that you learned you were too slow for snakes.

00:14:24:08 – 00:14:53:08

Dr. Maura Dudley

I wish there was more of a story to that. It was really, the herpetology class that I took was a field based course, and so we spent a lot of time going out. we would do coursework in the classroom, but then we spent so much time out in school just looking for things. And I have to tell you, I was the last person to to to find and catch snakes because I just was not as, not as fast as some of, the other students in the class.

00:14:53:08 – 00:15:16:17

Dr. Maura Dudley

So, there is one picture that exists of me holding a snake from that class, and I think someone handed it off to me so that I would have that opportunity. Okay. but turtles, we we caught in traps, and I was, I do have to be fast to, hog tie snapping turtles, which are, Do you have a degree of speed?

00:15:16:19 – 00:15:21:04

Dr. Maura Dudley

but it’s it’s a little different. And so I did learn that skill.

00:15:21:06 – 00:15:30:18

Steven Schauer

Okay, well, I’m I’m glad the story that I was imagining about you being too slow for snakes was not the reality story, because I’m like, oh, no, did.

00:15:30:18 – 00:15:31:04

Dr. Maura Dudley

You know that.

00:15:31:04 – 00:15:32:01

Steven Schauer

Would happen?

00:15:32:03 – 00:15:40:12

Dr. Maura Dudley

So. Oh, no. And I still love them so much. Sure, sure I do, just too slow to work with them.

00:15:40:14 – 00:16:00:21

Steven Schauer

So besides being able then to to capture the the turtles, what about them fascinated you and made you want to get into that early on? And, just as a sidebar, like, I think turtles are like my spirit creature. so.

00:16:00:23 – 00:16:27:08

Dr. Maura Dudley

You know, she might be mine to actually, so what I mean, well, as I mentioned, one was logistics. They were easier, but I and the thing that really. So so I should specify that what I’m really interested in were freshwater turtles. So. Okay, this kind of goes back to my I love animals that others don’t love.

00:16:27:10 – 00:16:52:14

Dr. Maura Dudley

And I feel like, you know, sea turtles get all the attention. And it’s not that I don’t love sea turtles, but I always felt like freshwater turtles. Really super cool organisms that no one appreciated. And yet they have been on this earth for so long. Their structure, their physical structure of turtles, have remained almost unchanged over evolutionary time.

00:16:52:16 – 00:17:17:11

Dr. Maura Dudley

And and not just our turtles as a group, but individual turtles can be so old. I mean, I, I remember one time in North Carolina, I was working and I boxed turtles are not aquatic turtles, but we found a box turtle and it had been engraved, and it was at that point had been in grade nine the years before.

00:17:17:12 – 00:17:44:13

Dr. Maura Dudley

Wow. And it was still and I think about the things that they’ve experienced and, lived through. And I just also, you know, I, I, I really love snapping turtles. My son, likes to find pictures of snapping turtles from his school box, and he makes this teacher take a picture of him with it to show me, because, they have a grumpy personality in a way, but they’re just incredible creatures.

00:17:44:13 – 00:17:47:03

Dr. Maura Dudley

I just there’s a lot of reasons I really like them.

00:17:47:05 – 00:18:12:07

Steven Schauer

Yeah, it it’s really clear your passion for them. Thank. Thank you for sharing that. it was I like I love turtles just because I mentioned it’s like my, my spirit creature had a tattoo, a turtle on my arm. And it’s just, you know, an important, you know, part of, of my own experience and journey and, and, your passion just shines through in what you just shared.

00:18:12:07 – 00:18:22:17

Steven Schauer

And that’s awesome. That’s so awesome that you were able to find that passion as a young college student as well, and carry that through. Your career is really, really wonderful.

00:18:22:17 – 00:18:40:22

Dr. Maura Dudley

So and and I can’t emphasize enough how important those mentors were that like, let me pursue that passion to wasn’t just my parents, but these mentors that, you know, saw that I cared about them, that I was interested and were like, you know what? Okay, I’ll we’ll do this.

00:18:41:00 – 00:18:49:18

Steven Schauer

Yeah. And he wanted to stay in our company. Yeah. Any, any 1 or 2 of those mentors stand out to you as, as, you know, anything.

00:18:49:18 – 00:19:18:22

Dr. Maura Dudley

Special? Richardson was the he was the head of the, Wetlands Center at, Duke, for so many years. And he your his training was as a biogeochemist, so, you know, studied how nutrients and chemicals cycled in wetlands. So, for him to, you know, have faith in me and, that I could do it. And, you know, we ultimately published a paper from that.

00:19:19:00 – 00:19:23:19

Dr. Maura Dudley

it’s my my one turtle paper that’s been it’s been published. I, I was.

00:19:23:19 – 00:19:25:13

Steven Schauer

During your master’s program.

00:19:25:15 – 00:19:29:00

Dr. Maura Dudley

That was during my master’s. Yeah. So grateful to him for that.

00:19:29:01 – 00:19:50:18

Steven Schauer

Yeah. That’s wonderful. Well, I’m grateful to him as well, because without his help, I wouldn’t have met you. And in, in San Antonio. And my recollection was just as a as a sidebar story, you how you got hired at the River authority? There was a little like you met Suzanne Scott, the general manager on a plane or something like that.

00:19:50:20 – 00:20:16:16

Dr. Maura Dudley

But Suzanne Scott, the head of the head of H.R. Was who I met. Okay. Plane? yeah. Flying. Flying back and forth to San Antonio. So. Yeah. I but at that point I had sort of set up some informational interviews the summer before I started there, and I, I knew that I wanted I’d set some up, at various places in San Antonio because I knew I was going to be moving there.

00:20:16:16 – 00:20:19:00

Dr. Maura Dudley

And I just I really wanted to work for Sarah.

00:20:19:00 – 00:20:19:20

Steven Schauer

Yeah, I.

00:20:19:23 – 00:20:20:13

Dr. Maura Dudley

Couldn’t I kind.

00:20:20:13 – 00:20:47:22

Steven Schauer

Of kept was checking, remember hearing. Yeah, yeah. You got somebody for you to hire. She’s a great you gotta you gotta hire this person so I can remember who it was and came from and or HR. But yeah, I do remember the story of you meeting somebody and they being so incredibly impressed with you in that in that short time on a plane that they knew we had to bring you on board and, and, yeah, it was great having you there and working with you for that short time.

00:20:48:00 – 00:21:03:12

Steven Schauer

yeah. So so we’re back now let’s catch up to maybe a little closer to present day. You’re in the Appalachian Mountains finishing up your PhD, and you can maybe pick up the pick up where we left off a little while ago.

00:21:03:14 – 00:21:35:21

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah. So I, when I was working there, I. One of my favorite things that I did during my PhD was I mentored something like 13 or 14 undergraduate students, as I was doing my research, I involved in my research. I and I mentored them in their own research projects. And, I knew going into my PhD that I wanted to teach, I’d known that, from before, but I, I really was excited about working with undergraduates.

00:21:35:23 – 00:22:04:04

Dr. Maura Dudley

And so when I was finishing up my PhD, actually, it’s just funny how things connect and opportunities connect. when I had first moved to Atlanta, I couldn’t start my PhD for a year. Work for Blue Heron Nature Preserve. There was the president of the board at the time, his name was Charlie Bobby, and he worked for Oglethorpe University.

00:22:04:06 – 00:22:29:22

Dr. Maura Dudley

and I knew that it was very focused on undergraduate education. So I, was really excited. I wanted that was my goal throughout my PhD was to be able to work there and yeah, as I was getting ready to defend my dissertation, an ad came, from a friend of mine who I, who I met at two couldn’t lives in Atlanta.

00:22:29:22 – 00:22:32:08

Dr. Maura Dudley

It’s just, you know, life is just a web of.

00:22:32:12 – 00:22:33:19

Steven Schauer

People’s weird connections.

00:22:33:23 – 00:23:05:10

Dr. Maura Dudley

He she passed this along, and it was an opportunity for, to be an adjunct, an instructor at Oglethorpe, and, to teach an ecology course. And so I, as I was finishing up my PhD, I developed a freshwater ecology course. And, and so because that was really the focus in my PhD was very much focused on freshwater ecosystems being the primary ecosystem that freshwater turtles live in.

00:23:05:12 – 00:23:43:14

Dr. Maura Dudley

And, so I got an opportunity to I got hired there, and I, I continued to continue to work, as an instructor there. And I love I love that job. but it was I’m not exactly sure how it happened. it maybe, because at one point I had tried to take my students to the Amphibian Foundation, and we couldn’t connect because it was during Covid, and there were a lot of challenges, as you know, especially putting students on a bus.

00:23:43:16 – 00:24:13:02

Dr. Maura Dudley

sure. But in, February of 2023, I got an email, from Mark Van Deka, who was who is the founder, and he and his wife, Crystal Manduca have co-founded the Amphibian Foundation. And they contacted me and said, hey, we’re looking for, an urban ecologist. are you? And it is a part time position. And, they said, are you interested?

00:24:13:02 – 00:24:45:02

Dr. Maura Dudley

And I it’s like, so when you, when you hear something like this and it’s like all the smiles come back because the opportunity to work with these organisms again, because I love teaching and I love being in the classroom, but there’s this part of me that really craves being in the field and, and, and doing research and really just being out there in these ecosystems again.

00:24:45:02 – 00:25:02:16

Dr. Maura Dudley

And I yeah. it was a really, exciting opportunity. And so I said yes, to that. And, so that’s, that’s when I started as the urban ecologist, the, the a Foundation 21.

00:25:02:16 – 00:25:03:20

Steven Schauer

It was that post.

00:25:04:01 – 00:25:04:20

Dr. Maura Dudley

23.

00:25:04:22 – 00:25:05:10

Steven Schauer

23.

00:25:05:11 – 00:25:15:06

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah. 2023. Yeah, yeah. Last, last February, about a year and a half. Yeah. How long down there. Yeah. and it’s been really fun. It’s been a really fun job.

00:25:15:12 – 00:25:36:11

Steven Schauer

Yeah. So you, you stay incredibly busy. You got the part time job at the amphibian Foundation. The still teaching? yep. Undergrad students and raising, three wonderful kids. Keeping you busy as well. So, yeah, you don’t have a whole lot of downtime in your life, it sounds like.

00:25:36:12 – 00:26:07:02

Dr. Maura Dudley

No, but I, I, my my grandfather, who, worked until he was, 93, I think, told me that if you love what you do, you never work a day in your life. And. Yeah, I tell my students when they talk to me about career advice, and really, anybody who’s willing to listen to me that how important it is to find a job that you just love going to every day.

00:26:07:04 – 00:26:24:23

Dr. Maura Dudley

And I feel so lucky that I have two jobs. Really? Three jobs. I’m at the one job a lot. at home. Job a lot. But I’m sure I love going to my other two jobs. It’s just. Yeah, really fun and it’s really fun.

00:26:25:01 – 00:26:48:10

Steven Schauer

But that is such great advice. And, you know, I believe wholeheartedly in that advice. I guess I just had on the show a couple of weeks ago, his father told him the same advice in his career path and life path. I think that’s really, wise, way of looking at finding that passion and finding that thing that you really enjoy.

00:26:48:10 – 00:26:57:15

Steven Schauer

So that doesn’t feel like work, doesn’t feel like a burden to go do this thing or like I get to go do this thing. you pay me.

00:26:57:17 – 00:27:00:03

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yes, yes. Yeah, exactly.

00:27:00:05 – 00:27:46:02

Steven Schauer

Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. And I, I, I appreciate your, your change in your PhD program to go for ecology. obviously you’re well aware of this, too, but the idea of learning how to protect, freshwater ecosystems and then teaching the rest of us how to do that, is not only beneficial, obviously, for the turtles that you love so much, but it’s the whole ecosystem, everything that needs that system, every other species, including as humans that are interconnected to these systems, whether we, think we are or not, we’re part of and, and, so what a great way to broaden broaden your approach to, you know, your research and your education to, to benefit

00:27:46:02 – 00:28:05:19

Steven Schauer

not just the one species that you love so much, but the whole system, you know? So yeah, that’s great. That’s great. So tell me a little bit then, about the Amphibian Foundation. what is it? Do what is it accomplished? What do you do there? And.

00:28:05:19 – 00:28:34:00

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah, no, the foundation is just, a fantastic organization. It’s a nonprofit. that, as I mentioned, was started by, Mark and Crystal Manteca, and it started in their, the basement of their home. they have they’re very passionate people. And so that’s another reason it’s really fun to work there because, when when you’re with people that really, truly care about what they do, it’s just a great place.

00:28:34:00 – 00:29:05:22

Dr. Maura Dudley

And, the way that it started was, to. So the Amphibian Foundation has a really broad mission statement, which is to, help with the conservation of amphibians, given the global decline in amphibians. And there is, a paper that was published in 2023 that indicates that, 40.7% of amphibians are threatened globally. And so and studios are very threatened group.

00:29:06:00 – 00:29:41:12

Dr. Maura Dudley

And the when it the amphibian foundation started was with a species called the frosted flatwoods salamander. which is a very charismatic, salamander species that lives in the coastal plains of the southeastern U.S, including, including Georgia. And, it is native to the longleaf pine ecosystem, which, was is this ecosystem that was dominated by longleaf pine, but also commonly, experienced a lot of burning historically.

00:29:41:14 – 00:30:06:06

Dr. Maura Dudley

And that caused these, kind of because of the burn, because these open understory that supported a lot of wetlands species. And of course, when, when, European colonization occurred in Georgia and other parts of the southeastern US, these were places that were some of the first two ecosystems to be removed because they were great farming land.

00:30:06:08 – 00:30:34:17

Dr. Maura Dudley

the wood was used and so, a lot of the species that live in depend on these ecosystems. And then also the, the problem with being dependent on a burning frequent burning regime is not very popular when you have people living near by chercheur. And so there are many species that are, endangered or threatened that are native to this longleaf pine ecosystem, including the rest of that wood salamanders.

00:30:34:17 – 00:31:03:21

Dr. Maura Dudley

So we, the Amphibian Foundation, was the first organization to do X site two, breeding. So breeding of the of the flatwoods salamander off site. since then it’s expanded to include, the gopher frog and the straight news. And there’s, there’s a lot of different things that, the Amphibian Foundation now does, but those are some of the species from the coastal plain that they really focused on.

00:31:03:23 – 00:31:37:15

Dr. Maura Dudley

And, something that, sort of came out of Covid was the urban ecology program, because what happened was when Covid hit, all of the species that we worked with were in the coastal plain. So just so but you could no longer pack a bunch of people into a car and drive to the coastal plain. Yeah. So instead, the person who was in had my position and kind of did some other jobs within the Amphibian Foundation.

00:31:37:17 – 00:32:10:01

Dr. Maura Dudley

said, okay, well, what do we do now? And they decided to do urban surveys within, the Atlanta area. And those surveys were of reptiles and amphibians, and they were kind of these presence, absence and primarily took place for the most part in public parks. So city parks, county parks, and then a couple of partner organizations. and that’s kind of how the urban ecology program got started at the Amphibian Foundation was not being able to take people to the the coastal plain of Georgia.

00:32:10:03 – 00:32:17:05

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah. and so, yeah. So that’s how that’s how the program got started.

00:32:17:07 – 00:32:35:08

Steven Schauer

So what now? And in your role there as an urban ecologist, what what is, you know, kind of, a work life there for you on your, on your part time basis. What are some of the things that you’re doing? You obviously mentioned wanting to be back out in the field. So are you leading surveys or are you doing education in out in the field.

00:32:35:08 – 00:32:39:08

Steven Schauer

Yes a little bit of both. Or like what what is what does that look like for you?

00:32:39:10 – 00:33:11:03

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah. So when I, when I tell people, kind of that I’m in urban ecology, I, I wasn’t hired as we have a whole team of people who do education at the Amphibian Foundation. They run camps, they do, certification programs online. I’m not in that group. But when you do fieldwork out in urban ecosystems, your job has to be, a large portion of education, because everybody who passes you some strangers like you’re doing.

00:33:11:05 – 00:33:36:12

Dr. Maura Dudley

And so they ask you about it. And I always stop and I tell people whatever it is they want to know about, amphibians, about the ecosystem. and so in that sense, I’m still doing education, but the job title is a little more about, some field research. So, as I mentioned, this kind of started as these, presence absence surveys.

00:33:36:12 – 00:33:56:18

Dr. Maura Dudley

So people would go out to the park, they would, look under logs, they would look in streams to see what species were there. And it was marked presence. If they found one or they found 100 and it was marked absence if they didn’t find it. Yeah. and as I mentioned, the original survey was reptiles and amphibians.

00:33:56:20 – 00:33:57:18

Dr. Maura Dudley

It’s mostly.

00:33:57:20 – 00:34:01:04

Steven Schauer

On science volunteers or staff.

00:34:01:06 – 00:34:28:16

Dr. Maura Dudley

Led. This was led by, a staff member. And we have this really great program called the Research Bridge Program, which helps to train, students, people who are interested in going into a career in conservation in amphibians, or reptiles. And so those students help out in the field that’s led by the Amphibian Foundation. Yeah.

00:34:28:18 – 00:34:31:10

Steven Schauer

I school or college age kids or.

00:34:31:12 – 00:34:42:10

Dr. Maura Dudley

not high school, typically, but usually college. It might be someone taking a gap year. It might be somebody nice to a career. who did something else?

00:34:42:12 – 00:34:44:07

Steven Schauer

That’s great. Yeah.

00:34:44:09 – 00:35:08:23

Dr. Maura Dudley

and so when I came on board and I met with, Mark and Crystal for the first time, I said, okay, what would you what would you like me to do in this job? Sure. And, and when Mark was talking to me, saying, well, this is what we did in the past, but, what we’d really like to do is focus a little more on amphibians because we’re the amphibians foundation.

00:35:09:01 – 00:35:42:00

Dr. Maura Dudley

Makes sense. So, one of the groups of organisms that’s very, it’s really threatened in urban ecosystems. And it’s really that are really cool species. are a group of salamanders called mole salamanders. And they that’s that’s sort of the generic term for the whole group. and there are two in particular that are found within the Atlanta metro area.

00:35:42:02 – 00:36:18:01

Dr. Maura Dudley

And so, during most of the year, we have designed some studies to try and better understand where these species live. what kinds of wetlands they live in. Sorry, I should back up. They all live in something called ephemeral wetlands, which are wetlands that are temporary in nature. and so when during the rainy part of the year, which in Atlanta is kind of during late fall winter time, the ponds fill with water and then bli depends on the year.

00:36:18:03 – 00:36:46:16

Dr. Maura Dudley

by April, May, June, they start to dry out. And the reason that these salamanders prefer this habitat is because they’re very susceptible to being eaten by fish. So if you are a fish, you can’t live in a pond. That’s dries up. And so the, these salamanders prefer those habitats. and so our, our studies are focused on, marbled salamanders.

00:36:46:18 – 00:36:54:15

Dr. Maura Dudley

And spotted salamanders have two very different life histories. but they both use ephemeral wetlands.

00:36:54:17 – 00:37:09:13

Steven Schauer

Is so is the use of the infirm or wetlands what makes them cool? Or because you said earlier, these are really cool species. So what? I get me some. Are you passing around these these cool creatures? We got to understand why they’re cool.

00:37:09:15 – 00:37:30:01

Dr. Maura Dudley

So part of it is that they look really cool. They’re large. They’re a large, beefy salamanders. And if you came across one, like, if you did a log and you found one of these guys, most people don’t know that they exist. And part of it and they don’t know they exist is because they spend a lot of their time underground.

00:37:30:03 – 00:38:04:14

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah, during a lot of the year. And then they emerge. And actually, if you if you live in the northeastern US, you probably know spotted salamanders pretty well because in the North, unlike the southeast, in this in the northeast, and I think it probably has to do with the timing of when these pools still relative to snow, there are these mass migrations of spotted salamanders that come and in sometimes, like in some communities, they’ll even close the roads on these nights that spotted salamanders migrate, in the southeast.

00:38:04:16 – 00:38:26:05

Dr. Maura Dudley

We don’t see that same like synchrony in terms of when they come out. Yeah. but if you saw one, I want everybody to Google a marbled salamander and a spotted salamander. And if you don’t think they look really cool, you can write to me afterwards, because you won’t. You won’t.

00:38:26:09 – 00:38:43:07

Steven Schauer

See me. So many pictures. I’ll. I’ll include them. I’ll I’ll include the pictures on the show notes to the podcast and on the, video portion of the podcast. I can edit them in as you’re telling people to go look for. So send me some pictures and we’ll include I can’t.

00:38:43:07 – 00:39:16:04

Dr. Maura Dudley

See you pictures. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. They’re amazing. and they just have really cool life history. So they’re actually very different from each other in some ways. So, the marble salamanders, so, so, so there’s issues with timing if you live underground, but you breed in a pool that’s only sometimes there, there’s some challenges. So the marble salamanders, the way that they approach this is they come out in it and with the timing that I’ll use will be for the Atlanta area.

00:39:16:04 – 00:39:47:20

Dr. Maura Dudley

But they come out in Atlanta around September, October and they hunker down under logs, or cover objects that are within the pool. So the pools are currently dry, but they’re anticipating they will fill with water. They lay their eggs and they guard them, and they hang out with those eggs until that pond fills with water. Now, the upside of this strategy is that when the pond fills with water, you’ve got a head start because your eggs are already leg laid.

00:39:47:22 – 00:40:15:13

Dr. Maura Dudley

And essentially, when the water hits them, they they hatch and they’re ready to go. The downside is that if your pond never fills with water or fills really late, you’re sort of you’re sort of out of luck. Yeah. spotted salamanders, on the other hand, they take a different approach. They come out in the winter time when the ponds are already full and they breed in wet ponds.

00:40:15:15 – 00:40:38:00

Dr. Maura Dudley

So the upside of this is that, you know, there’s water there because you come out, you go to the pond, there’s water, you breed, you lay your eggs. the downside of that is one, if you lay eggs in a pond with marbled salamanders, it is possible that they can they can eat you. The larvae can eat you because they’ve already had that.

00:40:38:03 – 00:40:40:19

Steven Schauer

They’ve already had. Yeah, yeah.

00:40:40:21 – 00:41:00:22

Dr. Maura Dudley

the other issue is that you better get out of there before that pond dries up. Yeah. and so even when we were doing our spring surveys this year, we, there were some places where we, we would have a dry time in the winter and you’d see kind of a stranded, spotted salamander egg mask. Oh, buddy.

00:41:00:22 – 00:41:35:06

Dr. Maura Dudley

Bad bad spot. Yeah. and so they have these two different play strategies. So one, I so we know they live in ephemeral. Well, we don’t know as much in urban areas, particularly what other features of those wetlands are going to potentially affect their presence or their density. whether they’re reproducing. And so we’re measuring things like with the marbled salamanders, we’re measuring things like how wet is, first of all, how many cover objects.

00:41:35:06 – 00:41:59:03

Dr. Maura Dudley

That’s what we call them, things like logs. In some places we find them under tires or trash. We look under anything that could be considered a cover object. we look under those and, we measure the soil moisture. We count how many are there and what type we count how decayed and the size of those particular cover objects.

00:41:59:05 – 00:42:19:21

Dr. Maura Dudley

with, spotted salamanders, we look at things like, what their egg masses are attached to. So is there a certain substrate? Do they only have rocks to attach to, or do they or they attach to some kind of aquatic vegetation? And we’re also taking measurements that we haven’t had a chance to analyze yet. but things like canopy cover.

00:42:20:02 – 00:42:47:03

Dr. Maura Dudley

So how many trees are over top of that pond? and potentially shading it, which can affect, potentially affect those species. But we also hope to do some GIS based analyzes to look at where is that pond located relative to other types of land. cover. And could that potentially be affecting the presence of those species at that particular wetland?

00:42:47:05 – 00:43:08:11

Dr. Maura Dudley

Because if you remember, these are, species that’s spent most of their time having terrestrial habitats, right? And so if they have to cross roads or their, their terrestrial habitat is physically separated in some way from that breeding habitat, that can potentially affect their ability to persist in that long term.

00:43:08:13 – 00:43:25:12

Steven Schauer

Sure. I’m assuming, correct me if I’m wrong though, but I’m assuming climate change and changing weather patterns is a threat to these, salamanders. Yes, the rain patterns are changing in those wet seasons, and dry seasons.

00:43:25:12 – 00:43:47:11

Dr. Maura Dudley

Are absolutely changing. so thinking about the timing of the, the timing of when water comes up, there’s all kinds of. Yes. So climate can definitely. yeah. That, that because of that hydrology, you have the pond when it fills, how much it fills and how long it lasts are definitely going to be affected by climate change.

00:43:47:12 – 00:44:11:20

Steven Schauer

Right. And are these creatures, again, a story I’m imagining that I don’t know if it’s true or not, but I’m assuming they’re in some ways like a canary in the coal mine when it relates to stormwater runoff and pollutants. If you know how what these ponds are being filled up with is runoff from streets and other areas. You mentioned tires and things are there, you know.

00:44:11:20 – 00:44:26:13

Steven Schauer

Yeah, turning to their breeding grounds. But, you know, if that also comes with risks, I’m assuming, as well as how the pollutants in our urban areas might be, hindering their, their, reproductive rates.

00:44:26:15 – 00:44:48:05

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yes. so not something that we’re directly measuring, but things like, where it was, for example, that we’re hoping to measure something called impervious surface cover. So how much, water can get into the ground in the areas around that pond? Because that can be a good metric to sort of approximate chemicals that might be coming in from the surrounding environment.

00:44:48:07 – 00:45:04:11

Dr. Maura Dudley

And, they are and, and amphibians, because they, they take in so much through their skin are particularly susceptible to, chemicals, that are found in, in urban ecosystems. Sure.

00:45:04:13 – 00:45:13:03

Steven Schauer

Hence the high mortality rate of 40 plus percent that you, extinction, extinction threat rate that you talked about.

00:45:13:03 – 00:45:41:14

Dr. Maura Dudley

So and I wanted to mention one other, project that we are working on, which is not dealing with ephemeral wetlands pieces. So we have those two projects that we’re kind of intensively working on. two other things. One is a, a project that is looking at how grazing by sheep to remove invasive species, invasive plant species, might affect terrestrial salamanders.

00:45:41:14 – 00:46:18:17

Dr. Maura Dudley

So there’s some salamanders that never use, aquatic ecosystems at all. and instead they reproduce under moist logs, and cover objects within forested ecosystems. So we have one study that’s looking at how, whether or not, grazing sheep, and their removal of these invasive plant species might, might affect terrestrial salamanders. and then the other major project that we are we’re trying to get off the ground is a community science, project where, because right now, I’m feeling kind of sad because I feel like frogs are being neglected.

00:46:18:17 – 00:46:44:13

Dr. Maura Dudley

I just started, so we’re kind of, you know, we’re trying to get this ball rolling rate of these, of these ephemeral wetlands studies. but one thing that we’re hoping to do is to actually bring in community scientists, in the metro Atlanta area to help us, through Frog Hall monitoring to be able to see what’s happening with our frogs in, in urban Atlanta as well.

00:46:44:15 – 00:47:12:13

Steven Schauer

Nice. Well, more you’re doing a lot. And I could continue to to kind of you know, I’m going to say it nerd out with you on this stuff because it’s so fascinating to me as well. hopefully that wasn’t offensive to you, but, no, but I do want to be respectful of your time as well. So let me transition into, kind of giving you the opportunity.

00:47:12:13 – 00:47:38:00

Steven Schauer

Like what? What can people do to support the Amphibian Foundation there in Atlanta where you are or in Vivian’s in their urban area, wherever they may happen to live. You know what? What are some calls the action that, you would ask the listeners to, to do to, to, you know, take your passion and go do something positive then for, for the community that they live in.

00:47:38:02 – 00:48:00:06

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah. so I, while I would, would always encourage people to support the amphibian foundation, which you can you can do financially, you can also there’s a number of certification courses that we offer, that people can sign, can sign up for there. They, they have a cost associated with them. But it’s a way that you can learn more about amphibians.

00:48:00:08 – 00:48:28:10

Dr. Maura Dudley

and most of those are designed for an adult audience. The online courses are but I really encourage people to get to know their amphibians, their local amphibians, because, I think that it’s so important for people to, to know they have skills that are living around them because they’re probably really cool. And, I could tell you all day about the marveled at the spotted telomeres, which if you live in the East Coast, probably are near near you.

00:48:28:13 – 00:49:00:19

Dr. Maura Dudley

If you don’t live on the East Coast, then you have your own, amphibians to really get excited about. And so, some things that I, I encourage people to do, there’s, there’s kind of a range. Right. So if you have the financial resources to support, local wildlife organizations that conserve these species, that is one way, but also supporting land organizations that that can serve freshwater ecosystems, especially ephemeral wetlands, because they’re not protected by the Clean Water Act.

00:49:00:19 – 00:49:28:01

Dr. Maura Dudley

And so they’re the first things that get destroyed, with development, but you don’t have to have money to support, amphibians. There’s also things that homeowners can do. There’s a lot of things that homeowners can do. some things that I wanted to mention are, one, having native plants in your yard because, you know, insects and insects prefer to eat native plants and non native plants.

00:49:28:01 – 00:49:51:17

Dr. Maura Dudley

So the more native plants you have, the more native insects you have, the more amphibians you have. a second one is reducing or eliminating use of, of chemicals on your lawn or your, your property. Because as I mentioned, because those all run downhill into freshwater ecosystems where a lot of these species are breeding, and it gets taken into their skin.

00:49:51:19 – 00:50:12:20

Dr. Maura Dudley

That’s one way, a third, a third one that’s probably, less less popular, but it’s definitely one that needs to be mentioned is not letting your cat outside. Yeah. a lot of people, when they think about cats, home cats, they think about the effect on birds. But actually they have a really significant effect on amphibians.

00:50:12:22 – 00:50:36:12

Dr. Maura Dudley

and there’s studies that have been done all over the world about this, but, one that I was reading that was just published, was done in Australia, and they found that, there’s something like 92 million frogs per year that are killed just by, feral cats. and so that’s something. But even if you if you don’t own a home, you don’t have money to donate.

00:50:36:12 – 00:51:01:15

Dr. Maura Dudley

You can still support amphibians by getting to know your local amphibians. Do this through something like, your your master naturalist or master. a lot of Master Gardeners classes will talk about this. You might be able to get involved in a community science program, near you, whether that’s, something that actually directly monitors amphibians or something that monitors their ecosystem, like.

00:51:01:21 – 00:51:28:13

Dr. Maura Dudley

And I adopt a stream program. We have a great adopt stream program here in Georgia. and, and also, one other thing. If you decide you want to look for amphibians, make sure that you know how to handle them in a way that will not that will not harm them. So things like thinking about if you’re going to roll a log, how to carefully roll a log, you want to roll it away from you.

00:51:28:13 – 00:51:53:04

Dr. Maura Dudley

Okay. So there’s snakes there towards you so that if there happen to be underneath, they they escape, they go away. And and that you put it back the way it is. And also that you use hand sanitizer, which sounds, counterintuitive, but there’s a lot of diseases that are part of what’s threatening amphibians right now. And so making sure that you don’t, spread any diseases to other Libyans.

00:51:53:06 – 00:52:07:18

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah. So there’s a lot that your listeners can do, whether they, you know, on a on a wide range and maybe, maybe lastly, if you’re a parent, supporting your kids if they are excited about amphibians. yes.

00:52:07:20 – 00:52:36:22

Steven Schauer

So yeah, just as you were supported. Yeah. Yeah. It’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. Well, more thank you so much for your time today and the great tips and advice that you’ve just given us. I end every show, with the same three questions. And, and these are questions about hope. you know, we, we talk on this program about sustainability issues and sometimes these subjects are, you know, hard, right?

00:52:36:22 – 00:53:04:14

Steven Schauer

You’re talking about climate change, and urban pollution, you know. Yeah. Maybe causing the extinction of these amazing creatures. So, you know, it’s a that’s a difficult thing to to discuss. But I want to always try to and each show following the great tips of our guests bring to with, a little bit of, of hope. So I’m going to ask you three questions in kind of just give your first gut reaction to the question.

00:53:04:14 – 00:53:32:06

Steven Schauer

It’s kind of like a rapid fire. and we’ll just kind of go through these three questions about hope and hope being defined as, some a future that you can envision, but you also have some agency to help make it become a reality that you have some ability, not without hardships or difficulties. And it may not be achievable, but it is something that you have some, agency to try to, to bring to life.

00:53:32:06 – 00:53:44:19

Steven Schauer

So the first question is what is your vision for a better future? And that can be for your you personally, professionally or for the world. What what’s your hopeful vision for the future?

00:53:44:21 – 00:54:23:13

Dr. Maura Dudley

Yeah, I think about, I think about this a lot, just in my own work. my, my vision for the future is that all people have equal access to the resources that they need to be happy and and support themselves. And that when that’s the chief, there’s still this room to coexist with diverse species that they still can can be there and, wonder us have just, bring us wonder.

00:54:23:14 – 00:54:32:17

Steven Schauer

Yeah. So why is that your vision for, a better future from.

00:54:32:19 – 00:55:04:15

Dr. Maura Dudley

Because I think that is, it’s a future that has a lot of empathy and compassion, both for other people and for the world around us. And I think that if we all came to that place, it would be. I mean, it would just be, I think if we find that empathy and compassion, that would that would allow us to get to that place.

00:55:04:17 – 00:55:26:03

Steven Schauer

Yeah. Right on. So last question, imagine we get there. Imagine we’re living in the future. You just described, full of empathy and compassion and people living in, diverse communities with diverse creatures and how does that make you feel now that that vision has come to be?

00:55:26:05 – 00:55:44:00

Dr. Maura Dudley

Makes me feel great. Yeah. Makes me feel great. I, I like to keep that in my mind as as I’m working because it it does fill me with hope that that can be achieved. So. Yeah. Yeah.

00:55:44:02 – 00:56:07:18

Steven Schauer

Wonderful. Well, that fills me with hope here. And you talk about it and, I, I’m going to do my little piece to help us get there. So thank you so much. Maura. Dr. Dudley, thank you for for being here, here on the show and and sharing your expertise and your passion and your hopes for a better, brighter future for all of us.

00:56:07:18 – 00:56:09:14

Steven Schauer

So appreciate it.

00:56:09:17 – 00:56:20:01

Dr. Maura Dudley

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been great. It’s been great to talk with you. And it’s always fun to talk about amphibians. They’re just they’re amazing. So look up yours. Look up here.

00:56:20:01 – 00:56:24:11

Steven Schauer

Local one I’m going to I’m going to thank you. Take care.

00:56:24:14 – 00:56:26:19

Dr. Maura Dudley

Okay. Thank.

00:56:26:19 – 00:56:52:23

Steven Schauer

Well. All right, that brings us to the end of another inspiring episode of Stories Sustain Us. I want to extend a heartfelt thank you to Maura Dudley for joining me today and sharing her incredible journey and invaluable insights into Nubian conservation and the importance of protecting our freshwater ecosystems. After we stopped the recording, there were a couple of things Dr. Dudley wanted to share, and I told her I’d be happy to include her additional thoughts in my closing.

00:56:53:01 – 00:57:20:13

Steven Schauer

First, she wanted everyone to know that while her work is largely focused on salamanders, as she shared in the interview, her work with the Amphibian Foundation has allowed her to be certified to handle venomous snakes, which is something she’s always wanted to do. And her current position? She also still gets to survey freshwater turtles during the summer. So I’m really glad for her that she gets to continue pursuing her passions for snakes and turtles while she’s also saving salamanders.

00:57:20:13 – 00:57:47:15

Steven Schauer

So, you know, it’s snake handling stuff that’s not really for me. but as I mentioned, turtles are my spirit animal, along with the great blue heron. but since we’ve been talking about turtles in this episode, let me tell you why they’re important to me. And I’ll save the story about great blue herons for another time. Yeah, I first kind of learned about turtles and fell in love with turtles when I was a child, and and, you know, my mother taught me a lot.

00:57:47:18 – 00:58:09:09

Steven Schauer

And some of the things that she taught me were grit and determination. And pick yourself up if you get knocked down and just keep moving forward, even when life gets difficult. And when I was a kid, how she taught me that lesson was through the parable of the tortoise and the Hare. and that lesson, you know, stuck with me all through my life.

00:58:09:09 – 00:58:31:17

Steven Schauer

That, you know, that that idea of, you know, life gets hard sometimes, and that’s okay. Just keep going. Just make progress. Even if it’s slowly. One step, one day at a time. Just keep moving forward. And that has paid a lot of dividends in my life. So I thank my mom for teaching me that as a kid using that tortoise and hare, parable.

00:58:31:19 – 00:58:56:21

Steven Schauer

There’s another parable I’ve learned as an adult, maybe in the last decade or so. And it’s a parable about turtles. It’s a Buddhist parable. there’s several different versions of this parable, but the one that I first learned about goes something like this. the parable asks you to imagine there’s a turtle swimming under water in this vast ocean, and this particular turtle only needs to surface for air once every thousand years.

00:58:56:23 – 00:59:25:04

Steven Schauer

Now, on the surface of this vast ocean, there’s a ring floating, and it’s being tossed by the tides and blown about by the wind and the currents. And the parable asks you to really kind of question, what are the odds of when this turtle surfaces for air once every 2000 years, that it will surface inside of that small ring that’s been floating around, for a thousand years as well.

00:59:25:06 – 00:59:43:11

Steven Schauer

Now, again, there’s different versions of this parable. There’s one that I read about a turtle in the lake surfacing in a bucket. It’s another one I saw about a blind turtle, climbing up onto a particular log, the sun itself. So they’re all kind of different versions, but they all drive at the same point in the same lesson.

00:59:43:13 – 01:00:08:13

Steven Schauer

And for me, the parable that I first learned about, you know, the, the idea of what are the odds of this turtle surfacing for air once every thousand years into this ring? Well, it’s incredibly rare. It’s incredibly precious. And that’s the point. The point is that life life is incredibly rare. Life is incredibly precious. And we should treat it as such.

01:00:08:13 – 01:00:36:14

Steven Schauer

We should treat it with honor and appreciation because it’s a gift. You know, this life that we get to live as humans on this planet with all of these other forms of life. That’s all a rare, precious thing, and it should be appreciated and honored and taken care of. And that’s why I got a tattoo of a turtle on my arm, because it’s something that I wanted to remind myself every day that life is a precious gift, and it should be appreciated.

01:00:36:16 – 01:00:57:16

Steven Schauer

And it should be gratitude for it. And you should do things actively, do things to try to make your life and the lives of others better because it’s such a rare, precious gift. So this, brings me to the second thing that Dr. Dudley asked me to share. In this closing, there’s a quote that has special meaning for Dr. Dudley.

01:00:57:18 – 01:01:25:14

Steven Schauer

And to me, the quotes really relatable to the turtle parable about the significance of life or the reverence of life. The quote is from Bobby, the a forestry engineer engineer, and Bob Dylan was quoted in 1968 saying, in the end, we will conserve only what we love. We will love only what we understand, and we will understand only what we are taught.

01:01:25:16 – 01:01:49:13

Steven Schauer

I, for one, am grateful for people like Bob and Dr. Maura Dudley, who are teaching us about ecosystems and other species so we can understand them, come to love them, and ultimately work together to conserve them. So thank you, Dr. Dudley, for joining me today. I really appreciate your insights and the important work that you’re doing. Now, let me give you a quick plug for next week’s episode.

01:01:49:16 – 01:02:11:10

Steven Schauer

We’re going from Georgia to Arizona, where we’ll hear from the deputy director of the Arts and Culture department in Phoenix. It’s a captivating conversation about the intersection of art and sustainability. You’re not going to want to miss it. So check it out on July 16th. Wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts or on our website. Stories sustain income.

01:02:11:12 – 01:02:28:13

Steven Schauer

Please make sure to like, subscribe and follow. Stories sustain us. As always, I would very much appreciate it. And until next time, I’m Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself and each other. Take care.

Listen to the podcast or watch the full interview.

Summary

Carrie Brown shares her journey from childhood to becoming an art curator, highlighting the influences of her upbringing in Chicago and her experience in gymnastics. She discusses the importance of visualization in her work and the role of artists in shaping the built environment. Carrie also reflects on her time working on the San Pedro Creek Culture Park project in San Antonio, emphasizing the intersection of art and sustainability. She shares the challenges and successes of incorporating historic foundations and engaging the community in the project. Overall, Carrie’s story showcases the power of art to transform and enhance public spaces. Carrie Brown, Deputy Director of the Arts and Culture Department in Phoenix, discusses her role in managing the public art program and the city’s focus on arts, grants, and cultural facilities. She highlights a project called Sombra, which aims to create shading and cooling environments in Phoenix to address the extreme heat issue. The project was awarded a grant from Bloomberg Philanthropies and will involve local and out-of-state artists. Carrie emphasizes the importance of artists being part of the solution and the need for community support for local arts programs. She envisions a future where people come together to tackle challenges and feels proud, hopeful, excited, and relieved when that vision becomes a reality.

About the Guest

For the past 20 years, Carrie Brown has worked in the public art field striving for high quality, innovative projects that engage communities in meaningful ways. She started her career at Valley Metro working on the first light rail section in the Phoenix metro area. Carrie left Arizona in 2007 to work for the Los Angeles County Department of Arts and Culture which established a new public art program the year prior.  In 2011, Carrie moved to Austin to work for Art in Public Places where she led novel projects such as the North Austin Community Garden, Austin’s first artist-designed community garden.  In 2017, Carrie became the San Antonio River Authority’s first Public Art Curator. In this role she managed permanent and temporary public art projects, and developed wide-ranging cultural programs at San Pedro Creek Culture Park. Her work led to a Best of the City (Best Public Art Canvas) designation from San Antonio Magazine in 2021. In 2022, Carrie returned to Phoenix to join the Arts and Culture Department as deputy director, overseeing the program’s $20 million+ percent-for-art program. Under her leadership, the program was selected as one of eight winners of Bloomberg Philanthropies’ Public Art Challenge, a million dollar grant for temporary artwork.  Carrie holds a BFA in Photography from Arizona State University and is also a certified interpretive guide through the National Association of Interpretation. ​

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/carrie-brown-42563b22/

Show Notes

City of Phoenix Arts and Culture: https://www.phoenix.gov/arts

City of Phoenix Arts and Culture – Sombra Project: https://www.phoenix.gov/arts/sombra

San Pedro Creek Culture Park: https://spcculturepark.com

City of Phoenix Arts and Culture Instagram: instagram.com/phxartsculutre

City of Phoenix Arts and Culture Facebook: facebook.com/phxartsculture

Keywords

Carrie Brown, art curator, childhood, Chicago, gymnastics, visualization, built environment, San Pedro Creek Culture Park, art and sustainability, historic foundations, community engagement, public art, Carrie Brown, Phoenix, public art program, arts and culture, grants, cultural facilities, Sombra, shading, cooling environments, extreme heat, Bloomberg Philanthropies, artists, community support, future vision

Transcript

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:24:23

Steven Schauer

Welcome back to another inspiring episode of Stories Sustain Us. I’m your host,Steven Schauer, and today I have the joy of delving into the remarkable journey of a friend and former colleague, Carrie Brown, who is now the deputy director of the Arts and Culture Department in Phoenix. In this episode, Carrie shares how her unique upbringing and experience have shaped her approach to art curation.

00:00:25:01 – 00:00:49:04

Steven Schauer

We’ll explore her impactful work on the San Pedro Creek Culture Park project in San Antonio, which is where I first met Carrie. This is an innovative project where art and sustainability intersected, revitalizing public spaces and engaging the community, all while preserving the cultural and historic foundations of the city and in some cases, literally preserving some historic foundations. It’s a really great story.

00:00:49:05 – 00:01:14:20

Steven Schauer

You’re going to want to check it out. Carrie also gives us an inside look at the Sombra Project in Phoenix, a groundbreaking initiative addressing the extreme heat issue by creating shaded cooling environments. Awarded a grant from Bloomberg Philanthropies. This project highlights the crucial role artists play in solving urban challenges and the importance of a community support for local arts programs.

00:01:14:22 – 00:01:42:02

Steven Schauer

Before jumping into the interview, let me give you a quick bio for Carrie’s impressive career. Carrie Brown has dedicated the past 20 years to advancing public art, focusing on innovative, community, engaged projects. She began her career at Valley Metro, working on Phoenix’s first light rail section in 2007. She moved to Los Angeles to help establish a new public art program for the L.A. County Department of Arts and Culture.

00:01:42:04 – 00:02:19:14

Steven Schauer

By 2011, she was leading projects for Austin’s art in public places, including the city’s first artist designed community garden. In 2017, Carrie became the first public art curator for the San Antonio River authority, managing projects at San Pedro Creek Culture Park and earning a Best Public Art canvas award in 2021. Returning to Phoenix in 2022 as the Deputy Director of the Arts and Culture Department, she now oversees a public art program with a budget of over $20 million, and she helped secure the Bloomberg Philanthropies Public Art challenge grant.

00:02:19:15 – 00:02:44:17

Steven Schauer

Carrie holds a BFA in photography from Arizona State University and is a Certified Interpretive Guide through the National Association of Interpretation. Now, join me as we uncover how art can transform our built environment. Let’s dive into Carrie Brown’s story. We’re creativity meets sustainability right here on Story Sustain Us, where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

00:02:44:17 – 00:02:53:21

Steven Schauer

All right. Well, welcome. Carrie. How are you doing? Thanks for joining me on story Sustain us. I really appreciate you taking the time to to be part of the show.

00:02:53:23 – 00:03:00:15

Carrie Brown

Well, thanks,Steven. I’m doing great. I’m really excited to be here. And thank you so much for thinking of me for your podcast.

00:03:00:17 – 00:03:18:20

Steven Schauer

Yeah, it’s it’s been a little bit, as we just, you know, talked about in the introduction. You and I know each other going back a few years from the time we worked together at Saint Tony River authority. So I really appreciated getting to know you then and just seeing all the great things that you were doing in San Antonio.

00:03:18:20 – 00:03:46:10

Steven Schauer

So I can’t wait to hear about everything that you’re doing now that you’re back. at home, I think it’s your hometown in Phoenix. So, let’s jump into it. Let’s, you know, this this is about storytelling. So tell me a little bit about your story. How what’s your journey from childhood to to present day Phoenix. What are some of the milestones and and things that were important in your life as, as you, grew into the great art curator that you are now?

00:03:46:12 – 00:04:09:03

Carrie Brown

Well, thank you for that. well, first, Phoenix isn’t actually my home. I am from the Chicago area. I grew up in a town called Lombard. It’s about 30 minutes straight west of Chicago. And, But growing up, I came out to Arizona. I was a big. Well, my whole family was a big Chicago Cubs fan. Yeah, and they have their spring training out here in Arizona.

00:04:09:03 – 00:04:33:21

Carrie Brown

So I come out here a couple of times as a kid, and when it came time for college, I was like, let’s get as far away as I can. And Arizona sounds great. So, that’s how I, made it out here initially was for for school. but growing up in the Chicago area, you know, I think there were a couple of things that really sort of informed, you know, who I am today and how I kind of operate in my career.

00:04:33:21 – 00:04:53:08

Carrie Brown

And one of those being, my mom always worked in Chicago for a long time. She worked in the NBC tower right on the Chicago River. And my brother and I, as kids, would oftentimes take the train into the city and meet here for lunch. of course, in the summertime, we could do that a lot more, when we weren’t in school.

00:04:53:10 – 00:05:09:22

Carrie Brown

and so it just really kind of, sort of instilled this wanderlust in me. It was really fun to go on these little mini adventures. And we lived like five minutes from the train station, so it was pretty easy to get there. and, and then every time we were there, we sort of take a different route around.

00:05:09:22 – 00:05:32:18

Carrie Brown

We might, you know, go to this shop to get some popcorn. But on the way we passed this what was public art, but at the time, I didn’t know what that was. And sure. And I distinctly remember when we went to Daley Plaza, which is where the Picasso sculpture is. Yeah. And just sort of being enamored by it and kind of wondering, like how the heck did this get here?

00:05:32:18 – 00:05:51:01

Carrie Brown

What is this thing? And then also being fascinated by what the people around it were doing, you know, sometimes they’d walk past like it wasn’t even there. Sometimes they kind of trip over there because they were looking up at it. and other times they just kind of sat there and, and looked and sometimes they might be, you know, drawing or what have you.

00:05:51:01 – 00:06:13:05

Carrie Brown

And so that was really kind of informative and really kind of, you know, it was instilled in me to to really look around and see how, the built environment was and, and why things were there. And then the other thing that was a really big part of my childhood was gymnastics. And okay, I, spent many years doing it, and had many injuries as well.

00:06:13:06 – 00:06:15:23

Steven Schauer

I’ve spent it’s a very tough sport.

00:06:16:01 – 00:06:36:01

Carrie Brown

But, you know, one thing that I had to do a lot in gymnastics, and I think any gymnast would tell you this is, you know, you’re you’re visualizing a lot. So you are imagining yourself going through your routine. Maybe it helps you calm your nerves. Maybe it helps you just kind of, you know, go for all the dance moves one last time before the tape starts.

00:06:36:03 – 00:06:52:00

Carrie Brown

but it really kind of trained my brain to think of something that, you know, wasn’t right in front of my face. And so in the arts, a lot of times you’re having to kind of make the case and asking people, no pun intended, to take a leap with you. Yeah. to say, hey, I have this idea.

00:06:52:00 – 00:07:16:16

Carrie Brown

I think we can make this work. We’re going to bring in an artist to do this. We’re not sure exactly what it’s going to look like, but this is a process we’re going to take. And, you know, I think we can get there. And so and and I realize that might sound a little bit of like a stretch, but to me it’s kind of a direct connection to, again, how my brain kind of operates and thinks about things and just having that ability to really visualize, you know, what the possibilities could be.

00:07:16:18 – 00:07:38:05

Carrie Brown

And, and see how I would like it to be. And so those are two like really kind of important things. And then like I said, I, you know, made my way out to Arizona for school and my senior year, I was in the art office and about to talk to my counselor, and I just saw an advertisement for a part time job, and I thought, hey, I could use a little extra money.

00:07:38:07 – 00:07:57:16

Carrie Brown

This sounds really interesting. And it turns out it was for Valley Metro working on the light rail project. And that’s how I got into public art, and I was really just hooked. I mean, in school, I did study photography, so I was studying art. Yeah. I never felt like I was that good. And I always sort of wondered, like, could I have a career in this?

00:07:57:16 – 00:08:25:01

Carrie Brown

I’m not really sure. and then once I got on the other side, on the administrative side, that’s when things really clicked for me and I really learned how to, kind of operate from behind the scenes and support other artists and their vision and really, you know, bring them to the table and have them be a part of how the built environment was coming together and be a part of their civic lives and, and have a say in what all that looks like.

00:08:25:01 – 00:08:48:08

Carrie Brown

And so that became really exciting to me. And and like I said, I was hooked. And so from there I went from the next job to the next job to the next job, which took me to LA and Austin and San Antonio, where we met. And I’ve just been super, super lucky to have really supportive supervisors and people along the way that have helped me along and supported me in all the different jobs that I’ve had.

00:08:48:08 – 00:09:07:04

Carrie Brown

And, I’ve just really been there even after I’ve left those jobs, being able to reach back out and say, hey, I have this new thing. I’m not quite sure what to do, what do you what do you think? And so I’ve just been very, very lucky to have those opportunities. And, you know, and now I find myself back here in Phoenix where I started my career.

00:09:07:04 – 00:09:22:02

Carrie Brown

I’m not working for the City of Phoenix Arts and Culture department, and it’s just an absolute thrill. It’s a wonderful public art program. They have a long history of doing really great work. And, I’ve got a great team behind me. And this is it’s really great to be back in Arizona.

00:09:22:04 – 00:09:47:21

Steven Schauer

Well, before we go any deeper into what you’re doing now in, in Phoenix. So let’s backtrack a little bit. A couple of things I want to dig a little bit deeper on. Sure. first, I really appreciate how you explained your gymnastic visualization and how that tied into your profession. I can totally get that. The way that you explain that, you know, having had to pitch things before in my career that, you know, aren’t really concrete yet, they’re just an idea.

00:09:47:21 – 00:10:11:12

Steven Schauer

Just a vision. I could see how that could benefit you. And so I really appreciate that, that connection. I really wouldn’t have thought about that before without you kind of explaining that that, connection going back to your, you know, childhood, however far back it needs to go, you know, when did you start getting into photography? Obviously, you carried that into your college years.

00:10:11:12 – 00:10:27:15

Steven Schauer

So I’m assuming that started pre-college high school or middle school. So tell me a little bit about how that started for you. And were you doing other art work as well? beyond photography. So what what’s that, you know, kind of journey like for you?

00:10:27:16 – 00:10:48:08

Carrie Brown

Yeah. Well, most of my spare time was spent doing gymnastics, so I. Yeah, sure, sure. I wasn’t in the band. I didn’t do all the other things. Is really just that. But, when, I think I was probably a freshman, maybe a sophomore in high school, I was gifted some old 35 millimeter cameras from my uncle. Yeah.

00:10:48:09 – 00:11:06:11

Carrie Brown

And, and lenses as well. And so I just started to kind of play around, and the high school I went to actually had some really great art programing. so, again, super lucky that I had that exposure. Yeah. and we had a really great photography class with a lab, all the things that we would ever need.

00:11:06:11 – 00:11:23:15

Carrie Brown

And now I had this new equipment. And so I thought, hey, I’m just going to check it out and try it. And I just really loved it. I mean, I, I’m not always comfortable sort of, you know, being the center of attention or being in front of the room. Although my job sometimes leads me to do those things.

00:11:23:15 – 00:11:48:08

Carrie Brown

Yeah. and so I felt like with photography sort of being behind the camera, it’s been a little bit more quiet, you know, you had to sort of sometimes wait for the right shot or the right lighting. And so that’s where I kind of felt a little bit more comfortable. And then that just sort of fed into those experiences I had when I was younger, kind of walking around the city with my mom and looking around and seeing things that maybe other people weren’t looking at.

00:11:48:09 – 00:12:01:08

Carrie Brown

And now here’s a way that I could capture them. So that did start in high school. And then, getting into college, I started, studying something else. I was convinced that I wanted to be a physical therapist.

00:12:01:08 – 00:12:02:10

Steven Schauer

Yeah, yeah.

00:12:02:12 – 00:12:17:17

Carrie Brown

And, that wasn’t working out very well. And I just sort of had this moment where I was like, okay, well, if I’m going to spend all this time and money here, like, let’s do something that is meaningful to me, that I feel like I could make good use of. And so then I made the switch back to photography.

00:12:17:19 – 00:12:48:09

Carrie Brown

And at that time, you know, digital photography was very new intensive. Yeah. We had one digital photography class and the whole university that I could never get into. So I only took film classes and I took color and black and white, mostly utilizing the 35 millimeter. but I just really learned a lot about, you know, how to kind of, see the world in a way, you know, where you’re you’re having to sort of set all these things to capture.

00:12:48:09 – 00:13:02:13

Carrie Brown

Right? image there. And then I think the thing that got me really excited is when we started to have classes where, say, we would stage a gallery exhibition, because that’s when I started to sort of see the behind the scenes and how the business.

00:13:02:13 – 00:13:02:22

Steven Schauer

Side of.

00:13:02:22 – 00:13:20:04

Carrie Brown

Together. Yeah. And I had a really fun time. we had the student gallery, you know, so there are a couple of shows that we put together there. and then as part of my, you know, graduating project, I had to put on my own show, and that was super fun, because then I had to, like, find the facility.

00:13:20:04 – 00:13:34:04

Carrie Brown

People that are going to give me permission. And then I had to tell them what I was going to do. And then I had to find the artists and set the schedule and all that fun stuff. So that’s kind of how I got hooked. Is really a gift from my uncle, is how we got started in earnest.

00:13:34:05 – 00:13:50:01

Steven Schauer

On Where Were you keen on, like streetscapes, like you talked about when you were kind of wandering around Chicago or landscapes, portraits? What what kind of drew you, you know, and pulled that creativity out of you? What was what was kind of your favorite subject matter?

00:13:50:02 – 00:14:10:06

Carrie Brown

Yeah, I didn’t do a lot of portraiture. I was a lot of times looking at landscapes or looking at architectural, you know, hues where especially in Chicago, I mean, there’s a lot of architecture to look, for sure, but even just the contrast between that and where I was living in the suburbs, you know, was really interesting.

00:14:10:08 – 00:14:23:23

Carrie Brown

or if if people were involved, it was really more of like kind of like these like street photography where I wasn’t, you know, posing somebody or doing a portrait. But I was sort of capturing them, you know, in action as they were, you know, just, you know, hanging out on the street.

00:14:24:01 – 00:14:37:15

Steven Schauer

Capturing that, that story of people moving in an urban area. Right? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Very cool. Do you still do photography on the side now that you’ve kind of gone to the behind the scenes part, are you still dabbling in it for fun?

00:14:37:17 – 00:15:04:13

Carrie Brown

It’s definitely behind the scenes for sure. I still have all of that equipment and I actually, gosh, this is maybe 8 or 9 years ago I inherited another set. So I have really great equipment. but I tend to use my iPhone for photo shoots, like so many people. yeah, but I, I, I definitely can’t let it go.

00:15:04:13 – 00:15:21:23

Carrie Brown

And so at some point, I know in the future I will I will busted out again and I will dust off all the parts and, and, you know, get into some real photography because it’s, it’s always something that I’ve enjoyed and I don’t think it’ll ever go away. But just. Yeah, in the last few years it’s definitely been on the back burner.

00:15:22:01 – 00:15:43:17

Steven Schauer

Yeah. It’s I can relate and appreciate. I kind of started out later in life than you did, but when I eventually found my way to photography and videography, I just kind of fell in love with it. And, you know, here I am doing a podcast, but but yeah, even though I’ve got nicer equipment, I still end up using my phone for most things also, which being phones these days are pretty darn good.

00:15:43:17 – 00:16:01:06

Steven Schauer

They’re pretty good. So for that you can in your pocket already if you see something, to me, if I see a cool shot out on the street or when I’m out hiking or something, I just, you know, grab the phone out. And a lot easier than carrying all the expensive equipment around. So I get that I can relate to it.

00:16:01:08 – 00:16:17:18

Steven Schauer

so your journey took you, you said to Los Angeles in Austin and then San Antonio before coming back to Phoenix. Are there any highlights of that journey in in Los Angeles, in Austin and San Antonio that you want to touch on before we jump into what you’re doing now in Phoenix?

00:16:17:20 – 00:16:40:14

Carrie Brown

Yeah. I was thinking about like, especially in the context of this podcast and what we’re talking about today. There definitely been some kind of nuggets along the way that really sort of feed into this larger idea of sustainable city. And, and they’ve really been projects that have stuck with me. it’s even just starting here in Phoenix with my first job working for Valley Metro on the light rail.

00:16:40:14 – 00:17:05:22

Carrie Brown

I mean, that was a major and still is a major investment in the growth of Phoenix. Yeah. And and wanting to provide, you know, mass transit for the amount of people that we’re, we’re moving here and still to this day moving here. so that was kind of the start of it. when I was in LA, I wasn’t, directly involved in any of the restoration projects on the LA River, but one of my coworkers was a volunteer.

00:17:05:22 – 00:17:27:12

Carrie Brown

And so there are several events that I went to and that started to kind of get my head around how the arts could be involved in projects like these and how meaningful that could be. on a smaller scale, when I was in Austin, I worked on a project. It was a partnership with the YMCA in the city of Austin, and we commissioned an artist to create a community garden.

00:17:27:14 – 00:17:33:13

Carrie Brown

And we in that area there, were essentially a food desert. I mean.

00:17:33:13 – 00:17:36:00

Steven Schauer

They’re part of East Austin, I’m guessing, or this.

00:17:36:00 – 00:17:37:02

Carrie Brown

Is actually North Austin.

00:17:37:02 – 00:17:38:09

Steven Schauer

Now. North Austin. Really? Okay.

00:17:38:09 – 00:18:07:23

Carrie Brown

Yep, yep. So there was one grocery store, that was in the area. and, and all of the rest of the food offerings were fast food. the grocery store wasn’t very big. And so we recognized that there was a need there. And, and that really came from the community as well. So as we were developing the project, they talked a lot about having this, available to them, you know, in their day to day lives beyond just what they could maybe grow in their homes.

00:18:07:23 – 00:18:25:17

Carrie Brown

And so it was kind of a unique challenge to bring an artisan to, to do that. But I think ultimately it was really successful. And with the support of the community, to my knowledge, it’s still growing strong and, and has even expanded. And so, again, much smaller scale, but kind of speaking to that broader issue of sustainability.

00:18:25:17 – 00:18:43:12

Carrie Brown

And then, of course, working at the river authority, I mean, I learned so much about that. And. Yeah. And you know, why things are designed the way they’re designed, you know, flood safety versus, you know, habitat restoration and how it all works together. And and so I just had a very small role in kind of bringing the arts to that conversation.

00:18:43:12 – 00:19:03:09

Carrie Brown

But I always felt it was very important to have artists as part of the conversation. You know, they just bring a different, point of view, a different perspective to the conversation and doesn’t always have to result in a thing or, you know, a piece of art. It could just be they are part of the design team or, you know, their way of problem solving.

00:19:03:09 – 00:19:14:19

Carrie Brown

Problem solving is different than, say, an engineer’s way. And so, you know, really to start to see that, with all that I learned at the River authority and, and, you know, try to carry that through in all the work that I do to this day.

00:19:14:21 – 00:19:48:23

Steven Schauer

On and for my perspective, for anybody listening or watching this, I think Carrie was just being very humble about her very small role. Had to say to the River authority, it was, I think, much greater than her humility is allowing her to to brag about. I mean, she was the first public art curator at the River authority and was specifically brought on to oversee, project on the Antonio and the San Pedro Creek Culture Park project, which is, is this, you know, multi-million dollar.

00:19:49:01 – 00:20:11:14

Steven Schauer

I think they’re up to almost $200 million project now on on the San Pedro Creek. That was, you know, not only restoring a creek and taking care of the flood control aspects like Carrie mentioned, but also really lining that creek with some incredible artwork that I know you had more than just a small hand in. And it’s it’s really beautiful.

00:20:11:16 – 00:20:38:14

Steven Schauer

the projects mostly complete now at this point, you know, completed after you and I both left the River authority. But I think we both had a hand in helping move that project forward. It’s something I’m proud of, and I just know what you did there. And it was it was really wonderful. Is there any part of your, experience there that, you know, what you want to talk about or you know, a particular project or particular moment that stands out to you?

00:20:38:16 – 00:20:48:13

Steven Schauer

as, you know, kind of explaining that intersection of art and sustainability that that, I seen you in action do such a great job with.

00:20:48:15 – 00:20:57:16

Carrie Brown

Well, thank you for your kind words. I appreciate that, and it is definitely a project I am very, very proud of. It was not an easy job to know. So it was.

00:20:57:16 – 00:20:59:13

Steven Schauer

Very easy project.

00:20:59:15 – 00:21:35:13

Carrie Brown

Yes. Yeah. For sure. and it just has such a special place in my heart. Not just the project itself, but all the people I got to work with. And I think, you know, there’s so many things that I learned on on that project. but one thing that comes to mind was the work that we did around the, historic foundations that were discovered as part of the construction and something that was unanticipated and the process that we kind of went through to figure out, okay, well, what we do about it in the physical sense, like, do do they come out, are they staying, and do we build around it?

00:21:35:13 – 00:22:04:08

Carrie Brown

What does that look like? but then also, in the sort of artistic, interpretive sense, how do we, when a decision was made to keep them and we redesigned the site, how do we honor that and how do we, you know, bring artists to this place that is so ripe for for telling stories and for, you know, sharing this rich history not only of what it was, but what it is now and what it could be in the future.

00:22:04:08 – 00:22:38:11

Carrie Brown

And so that was just this fascinating learning curve for me. but it was really, eye opening in the sense of thinking about all the different ways that we could have artists involved, again, not just the physical structure, but also in the programing that we were starting to think about and put together and the people that we were bringing in, you know, different organizations, different leaders to help craft that and put all that together was really just, I mean, it was frustrating because of the delays.

00:22:38:13 – 00:22:54:06

Carrie Brown

but it was really awesome to kind of see the process and see all of that come together. And then I recall I came back to San Antonio when the second segment was opened, and I just had this, like total sense of pride, and I had this moment with myself where I was just crying.

00:22:54:12 – 00:22:55:22

Steven Schauer

Nice kind of in the.

00:22:55:22 – 00:23:07:10

Carrie Brown

Background, just being really proud of all the work, knowing how many people it took to get to that point and that that areas where those foundations were so I definitely wanted to see that come to fruition.

00:23:07:12 – 00:23:32:10

Steven Schauer

In your in your referencing, just to to make sure people understand when you talk about historic foundations. There were obviously, you know, San Antonio is a is a very rich, cultural rich city and has a long, long history going, you know, back to, you know, 16, 1700s, with Spanish colonization and, you know, thousands of years, with indigenous populations that lived along the river in the creek.

00:23:32:12 – 00:24:08:12

Steven Schauer

really, since, you know, 10,000, 12,000 years ago, we found archeological evidence of human habitation. But I think you’re referencing the foundations for the A.M.E., church, the the first Amy, black church founded in San Antonio following, the Civil War. So that really was an incredible find and complicated find like you mentioned, and how to keep those foundations intact now that we discovered them and build the project around them to honor that legacy.

00:24:08:14 – 00:24:29:10

Steven Schauer

and you had a big hand in that, and it was really impressive to watch you work and, navigate the, you know, all of the interested parties that had wanted to have a say in it, the different governmental funding partners that were involved, Corps of Engineers, you know, they had a they had a hand in that project.

00:24:29:12 – 00:25:07:14

Steven Schauer

it was really a lot of incredibly complex moving pieces. And you navigated it with a whole lot of grace. And I haven’t been back to San Antonio since, the project opened. I intend to go visit that same spot, just like you did. And I probably shed a similar tear, because it’s such an incredibly important thing that that you were a part of to, to honor that that important legacy and I just I just feel moved talking about it right now, we’re we’re actually recording this on Juneteenth, even though it’s not going to air until July, but just that, that idea of, where we where black Americans, black Texans were able to

00:25:07:14 – 00:25:14:05

Steven Schauer

come and worship freely for the first time following the Civil War was just important. so thank you.

00:25:14:05 – 00:25:35:01

Carrie Brown

And I think one of the, yeah, thank you. One of the things that was also really exciting about that effort was, well, two things. One, we were able to find the a list of the original parishioners, which was super exciting. Yeah. And then also just being able to connect with the, the current congregation, I mean, the church still exists.

00:25:35:01 – 00:25:45:09

Carrie Brown

It’s in a different location. Yeah. but to connect with them and to bring them back to the site, was just really, really moving. So, so awesome to be a part of that. Yeah.

00:25:45:11 – 00:26:12:22

Steven Schauer

And just honoring the indigenous cultures along the San Pedro Creek as well, with some of the other artwork and murals and things that were done. It was it was really mindfully done thoughtfully curated, project that, you should be very proud of. So, again, thank you for your work on that. And, really, encourage anybody if you’re in the visiting the Saint Tony area, visit the Riverwalk, visit the museum, reach Mission Reach.

00:26:12:22 – 00:26:23:02

Steven Schauer

Amazing projects in their own right. So make sure you go visit, the San Pedro Creek project and see some of the amazing public art that, Carrie had a hand on bringing to life.

00:26:23:02 – 00:26:25:01

Carrie Brown

So definitely.

00:26:25:03 – 00:26:37:16

Steven Schauer

So tell me now, any anything any final thoughts on that before we bring you, up to Phoenix? Now, I don’t want to cut off your your thought process. If there’s anything else you want to share about your time in San Antonio.

00:26:37:21 – 00:26:44:01

Carrie Brown

I could go on and on about that project. So maybe I should end it there and move on to the next topic here.

00:26:44:01 – 00:26:53:11

Steven Schauer

Enough. So, so tell me. Yeah, you are now the deputy director. in in Phoenix. Correct. Tell me a little bit about what you’re doing these days.

00:26:53:13 – 00:27:17:11

Carrie Brown

Yeah. So I am working for the city of Phoenix. I’m the deputy director of the arts and Culture department, and my main responsibility is to manage the public art program. So Phoenix’s program was started in 1986, like a lot of programs across across the country started up in the 80s. and they’ve got a long history of just doing really great integrated work, getting involved in citywide initiatives.

00:27:17:11 – 00:27:39:10

Carrie Brown

And so I’m just really excited to be a part of that. Our department basically has three main areas of focus, one being the public art program, two being our grant program, and then three, we also manage a number of cultural facilities. So like for example, the Phoenix Art Museum is actually owned by the city. We maintain it, but we don’t do any of the programing, the great programing that happens inside.

00:27:39:10 – 00:27:59:21

Carrie Brown

We can’t take credit for that. But yeah. so those are kind of the main areas. I do have my hand in a little bit of everything in my role, but my main responsibility is the public art program. And we every year we do, plan that forecasts out our projects for the next five years. And if all goes well, that plan will be approved by city council next week.

00:27:59:23 – 00:28:15:14

Carrie Brown

and this will be our biggest five year budget ever at $25 million. And so we’ve got a lot of exciting stuff coming up. Part of that increase includes a massive expansion project at the airport. You’ve ever been to the Phoenix airport? There’s a number of wonders.

00:28:15:14 – 00:28:17:21

Steven Schauer

Southwest. Has it been?

00:28:17:23 – 00:28:36:08

Carrie Brown

Yeah, yeah. so there’s maybe another large expansion at the airport. And then last fall, the city did a bond election, which is the first time they’ve done it in about, I think, about 15 years. And so we’ll have a percent for art as part of that bond package as well. So there’s that a lot of great stuff coming up.

00:28:36:08 – 00:28:38:14

Carrie Brown

I wish I had like double the staff to do it all.

00:28:38:19 – 00:29:03:13

Steven Schauer

Yeah. Well so Phoenix is really hot if you haven’t noticed. I’ve been just reading some stories. and, you know, to prepare for this discussion and recognizing that, you know, obviously climate change is a thing and it’s, you know, it’s already hot to begin with there, but it’s getting hotter and staying hotter for longer, throughout the year.

00:29:03:15 – 00:29:31:10

Steven Schauer

just reading recently about how EMS, you know, first responders are, now being trained in how to give, you know, kind of mobile ice baths to people so that, you know, who are having heatstroke, you know, to help them stay alive until they get to the hospital for treatment. seeing that, you know, some of the city parks that are kind of out on the outskirts of town in some of the, mountainous desert areas, get shut down on, on extreme heat days.

00:29:31:10 – 00:29:59:10

Steven Schauer

So, so I know you’re working on a project. in some stage of the project, I’m not sure where it is, but, it’s a project that is really a great demonstration of connecting art with these sustainable issues, sustainability issues where you’re going to be creating public art. that also serves as shade structures to help, you know the community find shade during those hot Phoenix days.

00:29:59:10 – 00:30:01:10

Steven Schauer

Can you talk a little bit about that project?

00:30:01:12 – 00:30:25:14

Carrie Brown

Yeah. So this is something we are super excited about. Last fall, my boss and I got together and put together a grant application for Bloomberg Philanthropies public Art challenge. And the public Art challenge is a really unique, grant opportunity. It’s for temporary artwork, and it’s up to $1 million, and it must address a local civic issue.

00:30:25:16 – 00:31:00:08

Carrie Brown

And so we, kind of built upon, a previous project that was done, I believe, with NEA grant funds, National endowment for the Arts grant funds, a few years back. And so we kind of built upon this idea and created what we call Sombra, which is, Spanish for shade. And so we posed this idea to hire artists to create shading, cooling environments that we could place around Phoenix and, and help to, you know, tackle this crazy urban heat issue that we have here.

00:31:00:12 – 00:31:17:15

Carrie Brown

Yes. You said it is hot and getting hotter. Last summer was my first summer here, and we had the July where every single day was 110 plus degrees. And I thought to myself, what the heck did I do here?

00:31:17:17 – 00:31:20:03

Steven Schauer

it was only 90 degrees in San Antonio, so yeah.

00:31:20:03 – 00:31:46:19

Carrie Brown

Exactly. Yes. but there’s some really, really smart people here doing some really amazing work. And the city has an Office of Heat Response and Mitigation. Yeah. And I believe it’s the only or the only city that has an office, like that. Yeah. it or at least is the first. And so we’ve got some really smart people, as you know, doing some great, great work and bringing in a lot of data and research to the conversation.

00:31:46:19 – 00:32:10:11

Carrie Brown

And they became a key component of our grant application because using their data and their research, we were able to pinpoint particular parks around town that were hotter than other others for various reasons. Sure. and so we kind of coupled that with, okay, where could we actually stage something and, you know, thinking about logistics as well. But they were a key partner and, pulling this idea together.

00:32:10:11 – 00:32:31:06

Carrie Brown

And so we have gone through. So we were awarded the grant, which was very exciting. That was last fall. And we have now gone through the artist selection process. We haven’t yet announced the artist. We are getting our, everything ready for that, you know, getting our website together and getting all the information gathered. So we hope to announce that very soon.

00:32:31:08 – 00:32:54:02

Carrie Brown

but we do have the artist selected. they are local and from out of state. And for those that are out of state, one of the stipulations was you have to come here in the summer. You have to come in July, August or even now in June to really experience what is going on now. Obviously, there are extreme heat conditions happening all over the country.

00:32:54:04 – 00:33:19:03

Carrie Brown

but we really wanted them to experience what it’s like here, with our temperatures and our humidity and kind of seeing how, people move around in the environment or don’t move around, stay inside, you know, all of those things. And so that’s the stage, right? Right now we’re kind of getting everybody under contract scheduling those visit and, just starting the work with the the ideas that they came forward with as part of the application process was super exciting.

00:33:19:03 – 00:33:45:08

Carrie Brown

And so, yeah, it’s we’re all sorts of materials that we’re working with from fabric that might be woven or sewn to wood and metal. there’s a lot of, community engagement that will be a part of these projects. And so the effort is really sort of twofold. It’s one, as I mentioned before, you know, bringing artists to the table to tackle a really important civic issue here in Phoenix, creating these structures that will actually provide some relief.

00:33:45:10 – 00:34:09:15

Carrie Brown

Yeah. and then also having this educational component where we are, you know, empowering the community to really have the tools to, you know, keep themselves safe during this time. I mean, if you live here, you sort of, you know, the drill, but there are certain things that maybe people don’t realize, like early signs of heat exhaustion. And yeah, when you really need to take a step back, get into some shade, drink some water.

00:34:09:17 – 00:34:12:07

Carrie Brown

You know, they say if you feel thirsty, it’s too late.

00:34:12:07 – 00:34:13:10

Steven Schauer

Too late. Yeah, yeah.

00:34:13:11 – 00:34:36:10

Carrie Brown

You know, and just things like that and then again, working with our heat office to, you know, bring in that data, bringing the tools that they use, and bringing their knowledge to the conversation. So it’s not just about, creating some really cool art projects that you’ll get to see all over town, but it’s, you know, creating a legacy and helping to, you know, be part of that conversation where, you know, Phoenix wants to be the leading heat ready city.

00:34:36:10 – 00:34:43:19

Carrie Brown

And there’s a lot of great stuff happening, and we want to be part of that effort and continue that work that, our partners in the city are doing.

00:34:44:00 – 00:35:03:18

Steven Schauer

Yeah. I can’t wait to to see the, the pieces. I’m assuming when you make the announcement, there’ll be, you know, renderings and things that are kind of put out with that announcement, but I really can’t wait to see it when it’s finally up and up and ready as well. What’s the the time frame from announcement through design, construction and kind of grand opening.

00:35:03:23 – 00:35:05:19

Steven Schauer

How long is that going to take?

00:35:05:21 – 00:35:26:17

Carrie Brown

Yeah. Well we we’re really ambitious and our idea and now that we’re in it and doing it, I’m thinking to myself, maybe I should have mentioned this. but we it’s okay. So we are planning to, make the public announcement probably in the next month. and, and then we’ll have all the information out there like you said, we’ll have descriptions of the work.

00:35:26:17 – 00:35:47:14

Carrie Brown

We’ll have some upcoming events coming up that people can participate in. Sure. Have some of that educational information as well. And then the projects themselves will get installed next year. So it’ll be kind of springtime next year, 2025, where they’ll start popping up in different parks. So again, depending on the project and what it is, those installation dates will vary.

00:35:47:16 – 00:36:03:09

Carrie Brown

and the duration of their installations will vary as well, but they’ll be there for at least a month. And then in the fall of next year, in September of next year, we are going to take all of them and reinstall them at our school, Indian School Park, which is one of our largest city parks in central Phoenix.

00:36:03:11 – 00:36:19:01

Carrie Brown

So they can all be together and we will have a one day festival there. and that’s the very ambitious part where I was like, oh my gosh. but we just had a site visit with our partners in the parks team the other day talking about how we’re going to do that. And where they’re going to be located.

00:36:19:01 – 00:36:49:18

Carrie Brown

And so, you know, it’s a total team effort, so many different city departments coming together, and everyone’s really excited. So where there’s a will, there’s a way. And yeah, you know, we’re really excited to to showcase this. And again just have that celebration of you know there’s ways to, you know, be in this environment and be happy and healthy and be smart about how, you know, you are engaging and, you know, even things like the second you leave your house to have a water bottle with you, even if you’re just going a short distance, I always bring that with you.

00:36:49:18 – 00:36:55:10

Carrie Brown

And so just having all of that information, and really empowering the community is, is what we’re excited to do.

00:36:55:16 – 00:37:19:13

Steven Schauer

Yeah. And people are going to have to adapt everywhere. I mean, climate is is changing almost everywhere. And as you mentioned, it’s not just, you know, Phoenix in the southwest that are enduring these, you know, incredible heat waves. It’s happening across the country and sadly across the world. So, you know, how do we adapt? And, you know, how do we learn and change our behaviors?

00:37:19:13 – 00:37:40:00

Steven Schauer

All all of that is something that’s important. We’re all going to need to do something differently as our environment changes around us. So that’s great that, you know, art can play a part in that. They can yeah. You know, not only help maybe protect people temporarily by providing shade in your case, but also come along with that educational component.

00:37:40:00 – 00:38:00:21

Steven Schauer

And I think that’s that’s really a great way to raise awareness through something that’s beautiful. You know, taking a something that might be a hardship and turning it into a public beauty. And, educating the public is, is really great. So, yeah, I can hear you doing that. And what’s kind of why I want you on the show is to make sure people know that that’s what can be done.

00:38:01:02 – 00:38:23:03

Carrie Brown

Exactly, exactly. And they can, you know, artists can be part of the solution. And the other thing that we, that’s kind of said from the beginning of this video is that if there are any projects that kind of prove to be really, positive prototypes that can be replicated can be placed permanently, you know, we’re definitely open to that.

00:38:23:03 – 00:38:42:01

Carrie Brown

And I think the artists are really excited to explore that. Yeah. possibility. And so, you know, we’re kind of thinking along those lines as well. There are other initiatives, in fact, one that we’re involved in where, we are strategically placing, shade structures, you know, near bus stops that don’t have full shelters or even just busy street corners.

00:38:42:03 – 00:39:05:00

Carrie Brown

So this just becomes part of that larger conversation. And like I said, our our head office is doing great work. And and one thing they said, recently that really I feel like kind of like demonstrated what we’re sort of dealing with here and, and what we’re trying to advocate for. And that is when you think about, you know, living in Chicago in the winter time, we have all this infrastructure to deal with the snow.

00:39:05:00 – 00:39:22:17

Carrie Brown

We have snowplows, we have salt for the roads. You know, we sort of have all this, at our fingertips to help us get through this extreme weather. But we don’t have that in a, in a heat situation. What do we have in a heat situation. And so I think the our head office is really advocating for those tools.

00:39:22:17 – 00:39:42:10

Carrie Brown

And I think the city has been implementing them, and especially in recent years by expanding libraries and cooling centers. And you’re thinking about things like that, but really kind of, you know, having that infrastructure at the ready because it is extreme weather. It’s just not, you know, a flood or snow. It’s just very hot. Yeah.

00:39:42:10 – 00:40:09:19

Steven Schauer

And but just deadly. Yeah. Yeah. And it unfortunately takes life, all the time. So there’s something that needs that, that thoughtful infrastructure put into place. So, really impressive. What’s, what’s happening down there in Phoenix? are you at all involved still in, in, you know, river issues and, and the salt River is there and I think the Rio reimagined, is, you know, very known.

00:40:09:19 – 00:40:30:07

Steven Schauer

Well known, similar to the Saint Tony Riverwalk, the Rio Reimagined in Phoenix also has a bit of a national reputation as well for being an innovative use of of a river in a semi-arid, arid environment. So do you and your office, get involved in anything, along that, area Phoenix as well?

00:40:30:09 – 00:40:35:03

Carrie Brown

Yes. In fact, when I got here, I kind of inserted myself in that.

00:40:35:04 – 00:40:35:11

Steven Schauer

Good.

00:40:35:13 – 00:41:03:20

Carrie Brown

In that effort because of the work I had done at the River authority, all that I had learned, as part of that project. And so, you know, yes, they have done some really great work already. We’ve made some great connections with our environmental programs office as well as our planning office. And so we’ve been involved in some of those efforts to, you know, think about how we bring the community back to this area and in safe ways.

00:41:03:20 – 00:41:24:06

Carrie Brown

And obviously they’ve got some really great trails there. So it’s already a great recreation space. in fact, we are working with the environmental programs, office for an event in the fall in October where we are commissioning a temporary installation, kind of supporting the efforts that they’re doing as part of that event, around urban wildlife.

00:41:24:06 – 00:41:47:10

Carrie Brown

And so, yes, we’ve already got, some, irons in the fire with that project. And then as part of our public art plan that I mentioned earlier, we do have, a bucket of funding that we’ve identified specifically for that effort. So there’ll be permanent projects in the future, as well as other temporary projects and smaller scale programing and workshops that will support as well.

00:41:47:10 – 00:42:08:06

Carrie Brown

And and right now they are working on a bridge, a pedestrian bridge. It’s crossing over the river. Okay. And we have an artist as part of the design team. So we’re involved in that as well. So yeah, I mean, it’s definitely, you know, ripe for artist intervention and engagement and everyone involved is very open to that. So, yeah, I’m super, glad to be a part of that as well.

00:42:08:06 – 00:42:25:21

Carrie Brown

And to be able to share you know, what I learned as part of my work at the River authority and, you know, what was successful and what could potentially be implemented here, even though it’s a different environment, it has very similar goals. Yeah. And so it’s it’s really it’s great to be able to, you know, share that knowledge that I have now.

00:42:25:23 – 00:42:47:22

Steven Schauer

Yeah. Yeah I, I, you know my, my past with the River authority had, you know, invited to speak in different places and often when I was a panelist at different conferences, you know, someone from Phoenix was a also panelist because there was so much similarity between, the Saint Louis Riverwalk in Rio reimagined there in Phoenix. So, kudos to you for being part of that.

00:42:47:22 – 00:43:10:21

Steven Schauer

For inserting yourself into this. You need to be a part of it with your experiences, no doubt. There’s no doubt. I did read about one other project that I honestly, I don’t know if this has anything to do with with you in your office. I can’t imagine you didn’t have something to do with it, but, if it wasn’t involved with you guys, apologize for bringing it up in advance.

00:43:10:21 – 00:43:34:20

Steven Schauer

But it it. I recall, when the Super Bowl was in Phoenix, there was this giant mural, almost a 10,000 square foot mural put on the side of a theater. And it was created by an indigenous artists and, celebrating, you know, indigenous culture and history. And it’s just a beautiful mural. I remember seeing it and learning about it.

00:43:34:20 – 00:43:45:22

Steven Schauer

My assumption was something that big and grand for the Super Bowl. I’m sure you and your office had something to do with that. Is that a is that a safe assumption?

00:43:46:00 – 00:44:07:13

Carrie Brown

Well, we can’t really take credit for it. you know, it was on a private building, so it was really kind of a partnership with the building owner, some of our local nonprofit arts organizations as well as the NFL. But we did play a small role and certainly were, you know, aware and supportive of the project. it’s absolutely beautiful.

00:44:07:15 – 00:44:39:18

Carrie Brown

when, you know, people come to it that I make a point to, to drive by and see it, it’s just stunning. Yeah. but yeah, there there’s a great mural scene here in Phoenix, and a lot of times the assumption is that we’re doing it and we’re part of it. But a lot of them, I would say most of them we can’t take credit for because it’s the private, building owners as well as, you know, like I said, our local nonprofit arts organizations that are coming together to to create it, we’ve done a few great ones that we’re very proud of, but sure, we certainly can’t claim all of them.

00:44:39:18 – 00:44:41:22

Carrie Brown

There’s just a really great mural scene here in Phoenix.

00:44:41:22 – 00:44:59:19

Steven Schauer

Yeah, well, good time for, you know, bringing up something that you didn’t directly get involved in. But it is it is really spectacular for me. Yeah. It really is something that that is if you don’t, you know, whoever’s listening or watching, if you don’t know what we’re talking about, go Google it. It’s it’s, it’s really beautiful.

00:44:59:19 – 00:45:10:22

Steven Schauer

And, you know, the the honoring of the indigenous, legacy, you know, from Arizona and Southwest is is also incredibly important, obviously. So.

00:45:11:00 – 00:45:30:13

Carrie Brown

very much so. And that that design informed a lot of the graphics for the entire game. So all around town, like street banners. Yeah. or other signage for events like events and such that, that design informed all of those graphics. So you really got to see it in multiple forms. And it was, it was. Yeah.

00:45:30:13 – 00:45:31:01

Carrie Brown

It’s beautiful.

00:45:31:03 – 00:46:02:12

Steven Schauer

Yeah. Wonderful. Well, we’re kind of getting to a place where I want to be respectful of your time. but I also want to give you a chance to kind of plug whatever it is you want to plug. Is there, you know, something where people can, you know, a place they can go to learn more about your work, the city of Phoenix, anything that you want to, you know, give as a call to action for the audience to what they can do to support a local art scene or, you know, help, you know, with that intersection between art and sustainable city.

00:46:02:13 – 00:46:07:18

Steven Schauer

So the floor is yours, Carrie, what do you want to what do you want to promote and tell people to do?

00:46:07:20 – 00:46:32:08

Carrie Brown

Well thank you. Well, you definitely can check out, what we’re doing in the city of Phoenix, including our Bloomberg Philanthropies public Art challenge [email protected] Arts. so we’ll be keeping everything, updated there. We are creating actually a separate website for Sombra as well. so look out for that and you can follow along what we’re up to and, and what’s happening as part of that effort.

00:46:32:10 – 00:46:53:05

Carrie Brown

but I would also encourage folks to just become familiar with how their local arts programs are funded and and be supportive of that, if you so choose. for example, here in Arizona, our state arts agency, is struggling with this pretty small budget. And so, it affects all of us because they are granting agency.

00:46:53:05 – 00:47:14:23

Carrie Brown

And so when their budget smaller, their grants are smaller. And I think what we’re starting to see now is kind of that cross section of the, Arpa funds, the American Rescue Plan Act funds that we were so graciously given that we are able to share with our local arts community and local artists. Those are burning out. And so that level of support is starting to wane a little bit.

00:47:14:23 – 00:47:36:20

Carrie Brown

And so you know, it’s it’s something that’s important to you, you know, figure out how those funding sources work. You speak to your local elected officials and express your support for the arts and and having arts artists be, you know, a part of the conversation and, and part of the fabric of your community and having a voice at the table and tackling specific issues that you might have, big or small.

00:47:36:22 – 00:47:41:05

Carrie Brown

I think it’s really important to have all those perspectives, be a part of the conversation.

00:47:41:07 – 00:47:58:15

Steven Schauer

Yeah. Right on. couldn’t agree more with the more, active voices and participants in these important discussions. you know, I think the more social equity will we’ll have as a culture and the, you know, better will all be because of it. So.

00:47:58:17 – 00:48:01:01

Carrie Brown

Absolutely.

00:48:01:02 – 00:48:27:01

Steven Schauer

well, thank you for that call to action. I’ll make sure to put the, website, Phoenix .gov slash arts on the notes page so folks can can find that and anything else, that you and I may talk about offline, I’ll make sure gets on onto the notes page as well. so with the final few minutes carry, I end every episode, asking my guests about hope.

00:48:27:03 – 00:48:53:13

Steven Schauer

you know, this show is about some heavy topics, right? We’ve talked about, you know, heat issues and extreme heat issues and how deadly that can be and how we’re all going to have to adapt to that and other climate extremes that are coming. you know, the humanities in, you know, partly responsible for and we now we have to adapt to it, you know, and if we can’t, completely, you know, stalled out or reverse it.

00:48:53:15 – 00:49:18:15

Steven Schauer

so not necessarily pleasant discussion. so I always want to end, on, some hope and hope being defined as, you know, a vision for a better future and the agency to help make that future become a reality. So I’m going to ask you three questions. just kind of give your gut reaction. You don’t have to think about them too much.

00:49:18:17 – 00:49:19:08

Carrie Brown

okay.

00:49:19:10 – 00:49:34:00

Steven Schauer

And, the first question is, what is your vision for a better future can be for you personally, professionally or for the globe? Whatever, whatever you want to talk about. What’s your vision for a better future?

00:49:34:02 – 00:49:57:22

Carrie Brown

Wow, that’s a great question. I guess I would say, you know, people really coming together in a much broader sense to tackle these issues that we’re all facing. And I think we have all the resources. We have tons of smart people. We just need to come together and and focus on this. And I totally think it’s possible. And I think there’s some great work that’s happening already.

00:49:57:22 – 00:50:05:12

Carrie Brown

It’s just sort of connecting the dots, working together, sharing resources and just doing that on a much grander scale.

00:50:05:14 – 00:50:14:14

Steven Schauer

All right. same question. Why is that your vision? Why why do we need to come together and connect more? And, what why?

00:50:14:16 – 00:50:34:05

Carrie Brown

Well, I’m a firm believer. And you, you can’t do everything yourself. I mean, even in my small team unit, I oftentimes will ask for feedback from my staff and ask for their point of view, because I don’t think my best work is going to come out as me sitting in my office by myself and figuring it out on my own.

00:50:34:05 – 00:50:54:04

Carrie Brown

It might be good, but it’s not going to be my best. Sure. and so I think that’s when we see the best work is when you’re bringing people together again, different perspectives, different points of view. They got their eyes on different things. And then you come to the solution that is the best solution and really going to be the most beneficial to everybody.

00:50:54:04 – 00:51:08:07

Carrie Brown

And I truly believe that that’s when, you know, the best of us as humans kind of comes out when we’re able to work together and bring all of our expertise and all of our points of view. It doesn’t have to be, you know, like, oh, I have a PhD in this, and this is why I’m saying this.

00:51:08:07 – 00:51:17:12

Carrie Brown

It could just be your point of view, your perspective as a community member living on this block, you know, and all of that’s important. I think that brings the best in us out.

00:51:17:14 – 00:51:36:08

Steven Schauer

Right on, I like that. so the final question, imagine your future vision of everybody coming together, connecting more, working together more harmoniously to find solutions to these difficult things that are challenging us. That is happened. How do you feel?

00:51:36:10 – 00:52:02:17

Carrie Brown

Oh, wow, I feel proud. even more hopeful. Excited, maybe even a little bit of relief. Yeah, that we’ve, you know, made some solutions and made it better for the people that are going to come after us, you know, and and give them a soft place to land. And. Yeah, I think it would just feel, I feel like a lot of us would just let go of a lot of anxiety.

00:52:02:19 – 00:52:22:08

Steven Schauer

Yeah, yeah. Right on. yeah. This episode number five. And no one said relief yet. So, I can, appreciate that because, yeah, there’s a lot of anxiety out there in the world right now. There’s a lot of tough challenges that we’re facing. You know, not only our just our day to day life. How are we going to pay the bills?

00:52:22:08 – 00:52:33:15

Steven Schauer

But like these existential threats of climate change and, you know, inequalities and all of these things that are just so giant and looming, I could see.

00:52:33:17 – 00:52:34:10

Carrie Brown

It relief.

00:52:34:14 – 00:52:54:18

Steven Schauer

Being a feeling when we when we do it, there will be relief. Yes. All right. well, Carrie, thank you so much for taking some time to join me. And, you know, I appreciate you as a friend. I enjoyed very much working with you years ago and hope our paths continue to cross in the future. And I wish you nothing but the best.

00:52:54:18 – 00:53:01:10

Steven Schauer

You’ve got a a big job in front of you there in Phoenix, but, the city of Phoenix is lucky to have you, so I wish you all the best.

00:53:01:12 – 00:53:09:04

Carrie Brown

Thank you so much. And same to you. This was really fun and really great to connect again. And yeah, I’m sure we’ll cross paths again in the future.

00:53:09:06 – 00:53:10:11

Steven Schauer

All right. Good night. Bye bye.

00:53:10:12 – 00:53:11:11

Carrie Brown

Thank you.

00:53:11:11 – 00:53:39:15

Steven Schauer

And that brings us to the end of episode five of Story Sustain Us. I’m really grateful to Carrie Brown for sharing her journey with us. To me, Carrie’s story underscores the significance of art, or at least how I see art. It allows us to see beyond the immediate and imagine the vast possibilities. Her contributions to projects like the San Pedro Creek Culture Park in San Antonio and the Sombra Project in Phoenix, beautifully illustrate the intersection of art and sustainability.

00:53:39:17 – 00:54:11:21

Steven Schauer

Breathing new life into public spaces. Raising awareness, educating all ages and moving us to action. And reflecting on Carrie’s journey. It’s clear to me how crucial artists are in challenging social norms and advocating for sustainability. Artists can push the boundaries of what’s possible, using their unique perspectives to inspire change and foster community resilience. They remind us that art is not just a reflection of our world, but a powerful tool for shaping a more sustainable and equitable future.

00:54:11:23 – 00:54:33:20

Steven Schauer

Now, with this show story, sustain us. I’ve said, I think more than once in a short few episodes, that this has been out, that the meaning behind the show or the purpose for this show is to use the power of storytelling to move people into action and inspire action. clearly, data and facts and figures. that’s all important, right?

00:54:33:20 – 00:55:18:14

Steven Schauer

We need experts. We need engineers. We need scientists. We need all of the technologically minded individuals who are creating advancements that are moving our collective world into a more sustainable future. All of that is important, clearly. but what’s really important as well or equally important, at a minimum, is the work of artists and storytellers, because they take all of that data and, all of that kind of just numbers and facts and figures, and an artist or storyteller can take that and put meaning into it, put emotion into it, and allow somebody to connect to it and feel like it’s time to do something different.

00:55:18:14 – 00:55:37:18

Steven Schauer

It’s time to change their behavior or, join in a movement. So while we need the engineers and the scientists and the technological folks, we’ve already had some of those, kind of guests, and we’re going to have more of them. We also need the artists and the storytellers, and we’re going to continue to have those types of guests on this show as well.

00:55:37:18 – 00:56:03:08

Steven Schauer

So I, for one, am grateful for both, the folks who use one side of their brain for the science and technology and engineering and the folks who use the other side of their brain for the artistry and storytelling, because we need both sides of that, to be successful as we move towards a more sustainable future. So I’m grateful for people like Carrie, who are using art to help move us forward to a better future.

00:56:03:08 – 00:56:28:14

Steven Schauer

So I’m also grateful and very much appreciate Carrie’s vision for a collaborative future where communities come together to tackle challenges. Know her vision for a better future leaves me feeling hopeful and excited that, it can be a better future for all of us. I hope her story has inspired you as well, to see the immense potential of art in transforming our built environment and enhancing public spaces.

00:56:28:16 – 00:56:55:21

Steven Schauer

Let me give you a quick plug for the next episode of Stories Sustain Us. My guest next week is a neurodivergent and disabled entrepreneur and the founder of Lady Rebel Club. We have a deeply personal discussion about neurodivergent and mental health issues, and the importance of creating more opportunities for women and other marginalized gender entrepreneurs, small business owners, creators, and leaders who are also neurodivergent or disabled.

00:56:55:23 – 00:57:18:19

Steven Schauer

This ties closely into sustainability because, as you’ll learn next week, entrepreneurs who are from marginalized groups often tend to use their creativity and passion in support of impact driven ventures. So check out Story Sustain Us. On July 23rd. Wherever you listen to podcasts or story, sustain a scheme. And you know I’m going to ask. So please like, subscribe and follow.

00:57:18:19 – 00:57:33:04

Steven Schauer

Stories sustain us. And if you’re enjoying these episodes, why don’t you share them with family or friends as well? Pass the word around. I would really appreciate it. Till next time, I’m Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself and each other. Take care.

Listen to the podcast or watch the full interview.

Summary

Jennifer Cairns shares her life story, growing up in the US and eventually moving to Belfast, Northern Ireland. She discusses her experiences of feeling like she didn’t fit in and the anxiety she faced in social situations. Jennifer also talks about her journey of uncovering her neurodivergent diagnosis, including autism and ADHD. She opens up about the challenges she and her family have faced, including the loss of her sister who struggled with mental health issues and addiction. Jennifer shares her personal journey of coping with mental health issues, substance use disorder, and her husband’s stroke. She emphasizes the importance of normalizing conversations around mental health and disabilities. Jennifer discusses the challenges faced by individuals with hidden disabilities and the intersectionality of different identities. She introduces Lady Rebel Club, a global organization that aims to support individuals with disabilities and neurodivergences, as well as their allies, in the business world. Jennifer highlights the economic benefits of investing in disabled founders and the need for better support and empowerment. Jennifer emphasizes the importance of institutions and governments recognizing the value of employing disabled and neurodivergent individuals and supporting their entrepreneurship. She highlights the impact-driven nature of many disabled entrepreneurs and the need for funding and belief in their potential. Jennifer also discusses the need to create a truly inclusive and diverse entrepreneurial festival and to challenge societal norms and stereotypes. She encourages people to connect with Lady Rebel Club and support their mission of creating equity of opportunity for all.

About the Guest

Jennifer Cairns is a neurodivergent and disabled entrepreneur, author, mentor, changemaker and Founder of Rebel World LTD and Lady Rebel Club® where they work to create global opportunities for women and other marginalised gender entrepreneurs, small business owners, creators and leaders who are neurodivergent or disabled/PwD and allies. They do this via their own global media platforms, tech for good, rebel collaborations and with genuine care for their diverse communities.

Jennifer has rare blood cancer, Fibromyalgia, Paraneoplastic Syndrome, seizures, GAD, CPTSD, social anxiety, among others and is AuDHD. She feels blessed the life she has and especially by her husband, their two cheeky and lovely boys, and their dog. She is the epidemy of indominable and pours her grit, passion and care into everything she does, determined to leave the world better than she found it and to live her life as an example for her sons to show that anything is possible and that being different doesn’t make anyone less than.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-cairns/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JenniferLCairns

Show Notes

Lady Rebel Club: https://ladyrebelclub.com/

WE ROAR Magazine: https://www.weroarmagazine.com

#NoMoreHiding

Lady Rebel Club Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LadyRebelClub
Lady Rebel Club Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lady.rebel.club

Lady Rebel Club LinkedIn page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/lady-rebel-club%C2%AE/?viewAsMember=true 
WE ROAR Magazine Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WEROARMagazine 
WE ROAR Magazine Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/we.roar.magazine

Keywords

life story, fitting in, anxiety, social situations, neurodivergent, autism, ADHD, challenges, mental health, addiction, mental health, substance use disorder, stroke, hidden disabilities, intersectionality, Lady Rebel Club, entrepreneurship, funding, economic impact, disabled entrepreneurs, neurodiversity, entrepreneurship, impact-driven, inclusive, diverse, equity of opportunity

Transcript

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:31:17

Steven Schauer

Welcome to episode number six of Stories Sustain Us. I’m your host, Steven Schauer. And today there is a truly inspiring and thought provoking conversation in store for you. My guest, Jennifer Cairns, shares her incredible life story from growing up in the US to her move to Belfast, Northern Ireland. Jennifer opens up about her experiences of feeling like she didn’t fit in, her struggles with anxiety and her journey of uncovering her neurodivergent diagnosis, including autism and ADHD.

00:00:31:19 – 00:01:00:05

Steven Schauer

In this episode, Jennifer discusses the challenges she and her family have faced, and she emphasizes the importance of normalizing conversations around mental health and disabilities. Shedding light on the unique challenges faced by individuals with hidden disabilities. Jennifer also passionately highlights the economic benefits of investing in disabled founders and the need for greater support and empowerment. Let me tell you a bit more about Jennifer and then we’ll jump into the conversation.

00:01:00:07 – 00:01:30:07

Steven Schauer

Jennifer Cairns is a neurodivergent and disabled entrepreneur, author, mentor, changemaker and founder of Rebel World Limited and Lady Rebel Club, where they work to create global opportunities for women and other marginalized gender entrepreneurs, small business owners, creators and leaders who are neurodivergent or disabled. They do this via their own global media platforms tech for good, rebel collaborations, and with genuine care for their diverse communities.

00:01:30:09 – 00:01:51:18

Steven Schauer

The organizations she founded are also great resources and support for allies. Jennifer has a host of neurodivergent mental health and physical health issues, which she very openly shares about in this interview. Jennifer wants everyone to know she feels blessed with the life she has and especially by her husband. There are two cheeky and lovely boys and their dog.

00:01:51:19 – 00:02:13:21

Steven Schauer

You will learn, as I did from this interview. Jennifer is the epitome of indomitable and she pours her grit, passion and care and everything she does. She is clearly determined to leave the world better than she found it, and to live her life as an example for her sons to show that anything is possible, and that being different doesn’t make anyone less than.

00:02:13:23 – 00:02:26:09

Steven Schauer

It’s a really compelling conversation. Let’s dive into Jennifer’s powerful story and learn about the mission of Lady Rebel Club right here on Story Sustain Us, where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

00:02:26:09 – 00:02:33:13

Steven Schauer

All right. Well Jennifer welcome to story Sustain us. Thank you so much for taking time to join me today. How are you doing?

00:02:33:15 – 00:02:37:15

Jennifer Cairns

Oh. I’m grand. Yes. Thanks. Very much for having me, Steven. Very glad to be here.

00:02:37:17 – 00:02:47:21

Steven Schauer

Well, tell everybody where you are from right now. We’re where, you know, I’m in Seattle, and you, I know you’re over in the UK, but what part of the UK or am I speaking to you?

00:02:47:22 – 00:02:50:20

Jennifer Cairns

I’m just outside of Belfast in Northern Ireland.

00:02:50:23 – 00:03:07:23

Steven Schauer

Oh, right on, right on. I was wasn’t sure when we booked this. I didn’t know where you were over there. So fantastic. That’s lovely. I’ve been to Dublin before. It’s as close as I’ve ever come, to Belfast with, I’d love to get over there sometime.

00:03:08:01 – 00:03:11:08

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah, it’s only about an hour and a half hour and 45 minutes south of here.

00:03:11:09 – 00:03:31:01

Steven Schauer

Yeah. Wonderful. So, you know, the format of the show and we’re going to get into Lady Rebel Club and all the wonderful, work that you’re doing. And, just a few minutes. But I’d love to get to know you a little bit. So what? What’s your life like? How? You know, where did you grow up? What was life like as a kid?

00:03:31:01 – 00:03:38:00

Steven Schauer

How did you get to be, the advocate that you are and the entrepreneur that you are today? What’s what’s your life story?

00:03:38:02 – 00:03:41:22

Jennifer Cairns

Oh, yes. That’s a that could be several episodes.

00:03:42:00 – 00:03:44:12

Speaker 3

I said that. Give me the highlights.

00:03:44:12 – 00:03:45:18

Jennifer Cairns

I’ll give you the. Yes, I’ll give.

00:03:45:18 – 00:03:47:18

Speaker 3

You the highlights. well.

00:03:47:18 – 00:03:49:21

Jennifer Cairns

I’m actually from America originally.

00:03:49:22 – 00:03:51:04

Speaker 3

Oh, you’re not sure what.

00:03:51:05 – 00:04:10:20

Jennifer Cairns

Part one of my accent. in between southern Ohio and South Florida. So my mom’s from south from Ohio. My father is actually from Florida, and I met my husband who’s from Belfast. Yeah, in South Florida. and, came over here for a visit. That was 25 years ago.

00:04:11:02 – 00:04:11:12

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:04:11:14 – 00:04:20:05

Jennifer Cairns

And still here. Two kids later, an adult. So, yeah, kind of fell in love with the place and. And obviously.

00:04:20:05 – 00:04:25:20

Speaker 3

Him. Yeah. That’s good. That’s important. That’s a that’s a bonus, right? Yes.

00:04:25:22 – 00:04:41:16

Jennifer Cairns

yeah. So the growing up, that was it kind of bounced around in between those two states quite a bit. and then in my kind of late teens or early 20s traveled more was a little bit more of a, of a nomad at that stage in,

00:04:41:18 – 00:04:43:18

Steven Schauer

Throughout the states or globally.

00:04:43:18 – 00:04:43:22

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:04:43:22 – 00:05:07:17

Jennifer Cairns

More true through the states. and then I always kind of never felt like I belonged anywhere. You know, as a kid, I always, always strived. I would sometimes go, actually, that too overboard, you know, to try and fit in and blond with particular groups, doing wild and crazy things like, yes, look at me. I do fit in there.

00:05:07:21 – 00:05:09:23

Speaker 3

I want you. Yeah.

00:05:10:01 – 00:05:48:00

Jennifer Cairns

but yeah. So it was, it was difficult. People probably wouldn’t have noticed as much because it did come across quite, you know, very much like an extrovert and played sports and did all of the things, and was always out and about, but never really felt comfortable. And, and it’s funny because now looking back, even through again, even just like, you know, high school, those four years alone, you can tell different boyfriends, you know, and things like that or friend groups even, by the way, I dressed by the music I listened to and I know some of that we all kind of go through.

00:05:48:00 – 00:06:09:21

Jennifer Cairns

But it was drastic. And even after that, and it was always just like, again, it was that, well, masking, you know, as a term that especially with, with people who are neurodivergent, like myself, and always trying to fit in to the environment around you, and doing your best to kind of London and, and, and having that yearning to fit in.

00:06:09:21 – 00:06:35:10

Jennifer Cairns

So but I always felt like an alien is kind of the best way, you know, I can describe it and that I never quite fit in. and like I said, a bit of a bumpy childhood bounced around quite a bit. and. Just even with work, you know, never could really settle with anything. and as far as, like, being employed or things like that, I struggled a lot.

00:06:35:12 – 00:06:41:03

Jennifer Cairns

I struggled with university, even though I had a really high GPA and things of that nature.

00:06:41:05 – 00:06:41:18

Speaker 3

Yeah, I just.

00:06:41:22 – 00:06:43:23

Steven Schauer

Here in the United States as well, or.

00:06:44:00 – 00:07:03:22

Jennifer Cairns

Well, I went there and then I went here as well. when I first moved here for a semester, struggled even more here, I think, because the just the way that they work, things are slightly differently. because at that time I had still quite an American accent. yeah. So I stood out quite a bit. yeah.

00:07:03:22 – 00:07:18:16

Jennifer Cairns

I was just really awkward. You know, I can be very socially, I get a lot of people might not think it’s because I’m quite, you know, chirpy and bubbly. You know, most of the time. but, yes, I would struggle socially, especially in person.

00:07:18:18 – 00:07:19:00

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:07:19:02 – 00:07:22:23

Jennifer Cairns

This guidance looks great. So, yeah, the in-person stuff. Stuff and struggle.

00:07:23:01 – 00:07:37:16

Steven Schauer

Is that kind of the, you know, again, to going back to that masking term, is that that idea that you’re what you’re displaying on the outside is not what you’re experiencing on the inside is that kind of, you know, so I think what I’m hearing you say is that you.

00:07:37:16 – 00:07:38:20

Speaker 3

Can.

00:07:38:22 – 00:07:48:21

Steven Schauer

Kind of fit in at least as far as how others would have saw you, but yes, yourself were in a in a great deal of discomfort internally. Is that accurate?

00:07:48:21 – 00:08:09:08

Jennifer Cairns

Yes, completely. And it’s funny, because it’s even things that you don’t realize that other people think or do. Right? Because we don’t have these conversations with people. Right. and it wasn’t it wasn’t actually even that long ago when I was talking to my husband. And I remember when I first came over here and, I worked for, a newspaper for a while.

00:08:09:10 – 00:08:26:20

Jennifer Cairns

yeah. And, I remember, like, sitting at the desk on, you know, like a Friday, like planning in my head and visually walking through it. All right, here’s how I need to behave when we’re out with this, friends, here’s some things that I could say when we’re going to converse, you know, have a conversation to start a conversation here.

00:08:26:23 – 00:08:29:04

Jennifer Cairns

Here’s how I should react when there’s a goal.

00:08:29:05 – 00:08:30:18

Speaker 3

You know, football.

00:08:30:20 – 00:08:31:18

Jennifer Cairns

Here’s how I connect.

00:08:31:18 – 00:08:35:01

Steven Schauer

Soccer for us. But it’s really football.

00:08:35:03 – 00:08:37:02

Speaker 3

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Right.

00:08:37:04 – 00:08:55:02

Jennifer Cairns

so it’s all of these things. Right. And it was really and he was like, Jennifer, no, most people don’t do that. And I was like, what do you mean? Yes, of course everybody does that. So it’s even things like that, like all of these little additional almost like stressors. Right?

00:08:55:04 – 00:08:55:09

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:08:55:09 – 00:09:16:00

Jennifer Cairns

We carry around with us and kind of put ourselves through, in order to cope with the world around us. Because for a lot of us who are neurodivergent, let alone maybe, you know, have additional disabilities, the world really society, maybe not so much the world, but society really wasn’t designed with us in mind. So a lot of times it can feel like, a cheese grater.

00:09:16:02 – 00:09:17:04

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah.

00:09:17:06 – 00:09:21:08

Steven Schauer

That’s a powerful description that, that says I’ve never.

00:09:21:08 – 00:09:32:04

Jennifer Cairns

Heard I think that’s how a lot. Yeah I think a lot of us can relate to that in that it can leave us feeling very raw. Right. You know a times. yeah.

00:09:32:06 – 00:09:46:07

Steven Schauer

Sounds you know what you describe the planning and the, the thinking through these scenarios. Also the story I’m telling myself about it, it sounds like there’s a lot of anxiety around social situations. that.

00:09:46:10 – 00:09:48:02

Jennifer Cairns

Presents say.

00:09:48:04 – 00:09:50:11

Steven Schauer

really overwhelming. It sounds like.

00:09:50:13 – 00:10:32:17

Jennifer Cairns

It would be. Yes. You know, and I have multiple anxiety profiles. So I have saved the I have, generalized anxiety disorder as well. I have, yes, huge social anxiety. and really, what led to a lot of uncovering, I like to say, or joining, you know, a lot of the neurodivergent party, aspect was my anxiety was so bad at a stage that I was probably borderline agoraphobic, where I really struggled to leave the house unless it was with my husband to go to maybe one cafe and have a cup of tea, and that I was fine with, you know, had particular table that I like to sit at.

00:10:32:17 – 00:10:38:18

Jennifer Cairns

And if it wasn’t available, you know, we would stand there for a half an hour. Yeah. And see if it would free.

00:10:38:20 – 00:10:39:09

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:10:39:11 – 00:10:41:17

Steven Schauer

like mechanisms to control. Yes.

00:10:41:17 – 00:10:43:12

Jennifer Cairns

To control everything. Yeah. And I.

00:10:43:12 – 00:10:44:03

Speaker 3

Had a.

00:10:44:03 – 00:11:01:09

Jennifer Cairns

Massive, massive Zach and anyone who’s neurodivergent or had suffered from anxiety, especially as in any way will understand that term. For those of you who haven’t, a Zach is a zombie apocalypse kit, so it’s kind of a fun way. And a lot of us have a very kind of almost dark sense of humor, right? Because you have to.

00:11:01:11 – 00:11:03:10

Speaker 3

Make sure you’re.

00:11:03:12 – 00:11:19:18

Jennifer Cairns

and that’s our, our thing that we prop with us and then we brain in case literally right then the zombie apocalypse or the end of the world or whatever, you know, doomsday thing is going to happen. And that’s our way of like, again, coping as a coping mechanism is that kind of have this, these things around us.

00:11:19:20 – 00:11:37:14

Jennifer Cairns

and they can be very small, you know, they can be. Now, I had one at one time. That was before Covid was quite it was quite large. It took up a bit of our of, of of the space in the laundry room and but it was everybody was very happy about that. Our neighbors were because of when Covid hit.

00:11:37:16 – 00:11:39:21

Jennifer Cairns

I said, I have lots of hand.

00:11:39:21 – 00:11:41:10

Speaker 3

Sanitizer.

00:11:41:12 – 00:11:48:08

Jennifer Cairns

I have lots of toilet paper. I have lots of things that we could share with people that, you know, we’re running low, at that time.

00:11:48:08 – 00:11:51:00

Speaker 3

So if you were to have worked hard, that’s.

00:11:51:00 – 00:11:58:06

Steven Schauer

Your that’s your zombie apocalypse kit, you were you were just kind of that’s everyday for you if.

00:11:58:06 – 00:11:59:12

Speaker 3

I it was so.

00:11:59:12 – 00:12:04:04

Steven Schauer

So when Covid hit, it wasn’t like I got to go stock up. I you were kind of that was your.

00:12:04:06 – 00:12:06:01

Speaker 3

Admiration for me.

00:12:06:03 – 00:12:07:13

Steven Schauer

Anyway.

00:12:07:15 – 00:12:29:18

Jennifer Cairns

You know, we had a lot of health stuff in that in our family. That all kind of happened within that time period or leading up to that time period that set aside. It didn’t actually faze me. And I know that sounds from the point of view, like, oh my goodness, look what’s happening in the world. Because in my mind, I had ran through so many scenarios sure of what can happen.

00:12:29:18 – 00:12:46:22

Jennifer Cairns

I was actually probably strangely calm about it, and can be that way and really, kind of upsetting or stress. The stressful type of situations like that do tend to ironically cope. Yeah. Pretty well. and deal were things.

00:12:47:02 – 00:12:47:16

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:12:47:22 – 00:13:03:07

Steven Schauer

I can appreciate that and understand that. So, so how did you uncover your, neurodivergent, diagnosis? How did that what was that process like for you? If you don’t mind?

00:13:03:10 – 00:13:14:23

Jennifer Cairns

Sure. Yeah. No. Well, part of it was through examining the layers of anxiety and, especially around the Gad that I had, and trying to sift, if you will.

00:13:15:00 – 00:13:16:07

Steven Schauer

Generally, you know, disorder.

00:13:16:07 – 00:13:17:00

Speaker 3

That’s. Yes.

00:13:17:00 – 00:13:39:09

Jennifer Cairns

Just because you’re trying to kind of sift, if you will, like what was purely that are the social or what, you know, is maybe other things because, you know, again, if you’re autistic, for instance, which I am or ADHD, it’s you will a lot of us do have, you know, different levels of anxiety and different ways to go with those kind of, profiles.

00:13:39:11 – 00:14:05:23

Jennifer Cairns

And so it was just kind of sifting through that. And then later on, my son, my youngest, is also autistic. And it was through, ironically, through some of that process. And funny enough, especially from a lot of adults who are, you know, late to the party or late diagnosis, we it’s often not always, but often through our children or other family members or friends who, you know, have gone through that process and we start to go,

00:14:06:01 – 00:14:08:02

Speaker 3

It’s just connecting those dots. Oh, yeah.

00:14:08:04 – 00:14:42:15

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah, yeah, I recognize those. Right, right. yeah. And it’s and it’s funny now because it’s almost kind of like you, you, we, we tend to kind of not always all of us, of course, but we do tend to kind of connect with each other, unbeknownst to us at times. And it was really funny because, there’s many people that I had met over the past, you know, ten years who also didn’t realize, you know, at the time that they’re autistic or ADHD or, you know, or something of that, especially those too.

00:14:42:17 – 00:14:54:22

Jennifer Cairns

and especially women, because our diagnosis, you know, process and criteria was always previously gauged as that of a man, which is very different. We present quite differently.

00:14:55:00 – 00:14:55:21

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:14:55:23 – 00:15:23:14

Jennifer Cairns

like, for instance, because of the level of masking we have, we can be quite good at eye contact, you know, can be quite social. We can be, you know, all these kinds of things. Right. Which supposedly, autistic people can’t, you know, do our art. but yeah, through that, so through that diagnosis, my son as well, that led to me just researching a lot more and realizing a lot more than, you know about myself as well, and multiple layers.

00:15:23:16 – 00:15:29:09

Steven Schauer

And how long ago was this? Over ten years. I’m gathering from the story, but I’m just this one.

00:15:29:09 – 00:15:30:16

Speaker 3

My yeah, yeah.

00:15:30:16 – 00:15:59:10

Jennifer Cairns

The one was over, was over ten. And then, the other one was probably, now I’ve, I’ve been off the record diagnosed with kind of ADHD, but I’m waiting for the actual NHS diagnosis to go through, which I’ve been waiting now for years now. So it’s quite, Yeah, very. It was the, it was bad before. but then once Covid and everything else, it’s everything now the wait times are that’s a whole nother conversation.

00:15:59:10 – 00:16:01:13

Jennifer Cairns

But yeah. Yeah. Terrible.

00:16:01:15 – 00:16:03:05

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:16:03:07 – 00:16:12:17

Steven Schauer

So, so you, I think, I’ve heard you say you had two children. Yes. What are their ages and.

00:16:12:19 – 00:16:14:17

Jennifer Cairns

18 and 14.

00:16:14:19 – 00:16:20:10

Steven Schauer

18 and 14 and and so everybody’s doing well there in Belfast.

00:16:20:12 – 00:16:39:10

Jennifer Cairns

Yes. Yes. My my eldest, in fact, just this just on Monday finished his last A-level exam, which is, you know, a big set of exams you have to do here your last year and what we would have called high school. Sure. so his last, his last year and his last test that he has to do and now he doesn’t get his final grades until August.

00:16:39:13 – 00:16:58:16

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. so the school system here is a little different. The money comes to. Yeah. That and then university and everything else. Like, you know, you have to, apply ahead of time. So he wants to go into, aerospace engineering. So he applied Queen’s. They give the, his teachers give a, an estimate of what they think his grades going to be.

00:16:58:20 – 00:17:11:17

Jennifer Cairns

The university writes back and says, yes, we will accept you if you get these grades. Sure. So, yeah, there’s a lot more for thoughts in the education system that goes in here. There’s pluses and minuses. Of course it’s all of it.

00:17:11:22 – 00:17:13:07

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:17:13:09 – 00:17:23:03

Jennifer Cairns

But yeah. So it’s interesting. So he’s happy at the minute because he’s, you know, sort of dumb and the youngest one, he’s doing really well also. So he’s unhappily.

00:17:23:09 – 00:17:25:21

Speaker 3

Still in school at the minute.

00:17:25:23 – 00:17:36:14

Jennifer Cairns

so yes, he has a couple of weeks. He had a couple of weeks, more in school. So he’s not he’s kind of protesting that. Well, why do I have to go as you do? Right.

00:17:36:16 – 00:17:38:22

Steven Schauer

That’s it. Teenagers are supposed to do find.

00:17:39:00 – 00:17:39:17

Speaker 3

Themselves.

00:17:39:18 – 00:17:41:14

Steven Schauer

Fighting. You push the boundaries a little bit.

00:17:41:14 – 00:17:46:07

Speaker 3

And exactly where the world a little bit. So the parents. Yeah. Yeah.

00:17:46:07 – 00:17:49:04

Steven Schauer

It sounds like he’s, right where he’s supposed to be.

00:17:49:07 – 00:17:50:13

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah.

00:17:50:15 – 00:18:06:04

Steven Schauer

Wonderful. And in, your family of origin, and I’m assuming at some point we’ll talk a little bit about your sister at and, as it relates to the fund that you have set up, but I don’t know how comfortable or how much you.

00:18:06:07 – 00:18:07:13

Speaker 3

Share that story.

00:18:07:13 – 00:18:11:09

Steven Schauer

About your family of origin. Do you have any other siblings or.

00:18:11:11 – 00:18:31:16

Jennifer Cairns

I have a brother, yes. Who is in actually Arizona. So in fact, we are going in the end of June and for a month nearly. It’s like three and a half weeks to America and visiting my father, who’s in South Florida, still, for a week, and then going out to Arizona to visit my brother. So he lives out there.

00:18:31:16 – 00:18:42:12

Jennifer Cairns

There’s cousins out there. You know, my children have never met and things. And then, yes, my sister, as you mentioned, you passed last summer. Francesca. Yeah.

00:18:42:14 – 00:18:45:23

Steven Schauer

sorry to to when I was browsing your website.

00:18:45:23 – 00:18:47:02

Jennifer Cairns

Oh, that’s all.

00:18:47:04 – 00:18:54:10

Steven Schauer

I read about, you know, Frankie’s fun. And then the bit that you shared on the website. My heart goes out to you, and I’m sorry for that loss.

00:18:54:11 – 00:19:12:01

Jennifer Cairns

Oh, thanks very much. it’s the reality of things. And I think this is, you know, this is at the end, although we I’m a very positive person, you know, I always believe that things can always be better and things can always be worse, no matter what situation that you’re in. That’s how I tend to look at life.

00:19:12:01 – 00:19:34:06

Jennifer Cairns

That’s how I approach my my children and and friends and family to look at life. and it’s but we have but I’m a realist as well, you know, and I think that that’s one of the things that sets a lot of the conversations that we have with that our community and the way that we approach connecting with our community and people outside of our community is that you have to have real conversations about things.

00:19:34:10 – 00:19:55:16

Jennifer Cairns

And yes, you can have a bit of a sense of humor about it and all of that. but at the end of the day, yeah, things, you know, there are additional challenges that humans like I have. There’s, you know, additional challenges in life. There’s, you know, additional challenges in the entrepreneurial business space. and we’re not robots.

00:19:55:16 – 00:20:03:22

Jennifer Cairns

So although our business is a separate entity, what happens to us as individuals, of course, affects that. And vice versa. Yeah.

00:20:04:00 – 00:20:06:05

Speaker 3

and.

00:20:06:07 – 00:20:32:03

Jennifer Cairns

And our mental health and everything as well, you know, and unfortunately with my sister, she was also neurodivergent and she was bipolar. she struggled with mental health a lot, as did I pretty much most of my life. from the age of six. and, she just. Yeah, she had marriage and a couple of other things as well that physically would, you know, flare and causing a lot of difficulty.

00:20:32:03 – 00:20:41:18

Jennifer Cairns

She was a great, poet, photographer and often a lot of her media subject, her, her subject media was dark.

00:20:43:02 – 00:20:50:04

Jennifer Cairns

But she always found an interesting way, you know, to bring sometimes dark subject matter to life, if you will.

00:20:50:06 – 00:20:52:06

Steven Schauer

And find the humor in that.

00:20:52:07 – 00:20:54:18

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah.

00:20:54:20 – 00:21:22:06

Jennifer Cairns

and very, very funny. Very kind, very intelligent. and could have really been all the things that she wanted to do with her talent. and unfortunately, she did. Like I said, she did struggle a lot with her. with her bipolar, her just my mental health aspects. And that led her down some dark alleys. and she was an addict.

00:21:22:08 – 00:21:27:21

Jennifer Cairns

And unfortunately, that’s. Yeah. You know what got her in the end?

00:21:27:23 – 00:21:28:19

Speaker 3

yeah.

00:21:28:21 – 00:21:53:07

Jennifer Cairns

And it happens to so many of us, and, you know. Yeah, of course, you don’t have to be neurodivergent or have mental health conditions to be an addict or an alcoholic or anything like that. However, a lot of us who are there’s a much higher suicide rate. There’s a much higher, of, you know, abuse of alcohol, other and becoming an, narcotics the rate.

00:21:53:08 – 00:21:53:20

Steven Schauer

Yeah.

00:21:53:22 – 00:22:11:10

Jennifer Cairns

Because we do struggle so much with the world around us. it can help to numb that. you know, I myself that when I was again in high school and even in my early 20s, mid-twenties, to some extent, it was more alcohol for me. So I drank a lot.

00:22:11:12 – 00:22:11:18

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:22:11:22 – 00:22:29:16

Jennifer Cairns

Yes, a lot. And that was not only way of trying to fit in, you know, with those, those kind of partying kids and all of that. But it was a way of just trying to cope. you know, you don’t realize it at the time, unfortunately. Yeah. but it is very real struggle that, you know, a lot of us would have.

00:22:29:18 – 00:22:58:07

Steven Schauer

Yeah. And, you know, just to, to match your vulnerability and honesty that you’re sharing. I’m very familiar, with drinking. I’m an alcoholic. I’m in recovery, over 18 years sober at this point. you know, but, I can relate to, you know, drinking entirely too much in my late teens, 20s and into my 30s before I got sober.

00:22:58:09 – 00:23:05:03

Steven Schauer

you know, as a, as you said, not knowing that that’s what I was doing to cope with life, but that’s. Yes, that’s what I was doing.

00:23:05:05 – 00:23:05:18

Jennifer Cairns

yeah.

00:23:05:20 – 00:23:18:04

Steven Schauer

I didn’t know how to fit in either or some of the things that you’ve talked about, you know, on the outside, people might have thought I had it all together and was on this upward trajectory in life, but on the inside, that was not what was going on. And yeah.

00:23:18:05 – 00:23:19:00

Speaker 3

Yes. Yeah.

00:23:19:00 – 00:23:19:13

Steven Schauer

So I.

00:23:19:13 – 00:23:21:08

Speaker 3

Can yeah.

00:23:21:10 – 00:23:49:08

Steven Schauer

Relate in some, some ways to what you’re describing. maybe for, for different, diagnosable reasons, but certainly can, can understand and share my empathy and compassion for, for some of that, challenge that you’ve had to go through. And certainly my heart goes out to your sister. I’ve know a number of folks who, you know, who’ve who are not with us anymore because of, similar issues.

00:23:49:08 – 00:23:57:13

Steven Schauer

And it’s just it’s hard. It’s hard, hard part of life. But it is certainly, yeah. Conversation like this where we get to normalize.

00:23:57:15 – 00:23:58:03

Jennifer Cairns

Exactly.

00:23:58:05 – 00:24:24:19

Steven Schauer

These, very real things that don’t need to be hidden in a closet. We don’t need to pretend mental health issues aren’t real. And, you know, substance use disorder is a thing, diagnosable thing. People need compassion and help for, not shame and shunning for. so I appreciate your willingness to come on and, you know, be vulnerable and say, this is your truth.

00:24:24:21 – 00:24:26:13

Steven Schauer

it’s really powerful. So thank you for sharing.

00:24:26:13 – 00:24:27:14

Speaker 3

Thank you.

00:24:27:16 – 00:24:55:06

Jennifer Cairns

Oh, no. Of of course. And and that’s a big thing, you know, and that was one of the themes that I really noticed. as I like to kind of call, I call it like the three waves. when I always had like, like I said, mental health kind of conditions and anxiety stuff kind of growing up. and as I got older, I developed, you know, like fibromyalgia and have, like migraines and just different things.

00:24:55:06 – 00:25:24:06

Jennifer Cairns

But there was also additional things kind of going on with me that at the time that this is going back now, you know, maybe ten, 12 years, they couldn’t quite put their finger on. And yeah, so that years just kind of being poked and prodded, you know, and all this kind of stuff and. Sure, it kind of led up to the point of like towards the end of 2019, now the end of 2019, my husband, and we ran a business together at the time, and he just ran like ten miles a day, six days a week was very, you know, fit, healthy.

00:25:24:10 – 00:25:55:05

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. And completely out of the blue. He had a stroke and that really, you know, of course changed everything and life changed the family dynamic changed the, you know, the business which pretty much ceased to exist at that stage. And, because he had he had had his gallbladder out before that. So that was post-surgery. And it was just one of those fluke things where he also happened to have a hole in the heart, which is actually 25% of the population, does never causes them any bother.

00:25:55:10 – 00:26:12:22

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. But in his case, there was a very, very small clot that went through that hole in the heart. And that’s because of stroke, because it was post stroke. They couldn’t give him the anti stroke medication. So it ended up being quite an impactful, you know, stroke. And he’s done years and years of rebuilding you know rehabilitation.

00:26:13:00 – 00:26:29:15

Jennifer Cairns

and I have to say, you know, he’s sort of hats off to him. He’s he’s that’s where his, stubbornness, you know, has come really, really. it’s been very handy for him. He’s been able to sort of use that and even to this day, you know, and like I said, that was towards end in 2019.

00:26:29:17 – 00:26:42:15

Jennifer Cairns

He has to do like about anywhere between an hour and a half to two hours of really ot, you know, work or else his whole right side, which he doesn’t have much feeling on. And he has a lot of like nerve damage and stuff.

00:26:42:17 – 00:26:43:13

Steven Schauer

Yeah.

00:26:43:15 – 00:26:49:23

Jennifer Cairns

But he has to just to do those workouts and things to, you know, keep, keep things in check. Sensei.

00:26:50:01 – 00:26:52:15

Steven Schauer

But he is he is, you know.

00:26:52:17 – 00:27:07:04

Jennifer Cairns

Well, he’s recovered, I think, as much as he’s going to it did affect his mobility, you know, to some extent, like he he had to learn how to walk again. You know, he couldn’t even talk really when he had the stroke. now that came back fairly quickly. But he had to, you know, he had to go through that process.

00:27:07:04 – 00:27:28:15

Jennifer Cairns

Like I said, he had to learn to walk and and everything again. yeah. So yeah, it was quite a, arduous journey for him and for the family for sure. Yeah. of course. So it was very topsy turvy at that time. And then about two months after he had a stroke, and he had only been out of hospital at the stage for maybe like two weeks.

00:27:28:15 – 00:27:34:22

Jennifer Cairns

Three at the most. but every day he was down at the brain injury clinic for, like, five hours a day. Five days a week.

00:27:35:00 – 00:27:36:02

Steven Schauer

Yeah.

00:27:36:04 – 00:27:41:05

Jennifer Cairns

and I got my blood cancer diagnosis at that stage. And then two months after that Covid hit.

00:27:41:07 – 00:27:47:16

Speaker 3

So, yeah, it was like it was like, are you serious? Yeah. It’s.

00:27:47:18 – 00:28:08:08

Jennifer Cairns

silly, but because again, we kind of have this very dark sense of humor about things in life in general. Right? after his stroke, we were kind of going, right. That’s one of the big three, right? You know, there’s heart attack, stroke, cancer. So hopefully that’s us, as you know, as a, you know, as parents kind of yeah, hopefully, you know, that’s us, you know.

00:28:08:10 – 00:28:20:02

Jennifer Cairns

yeah. And nothing else major is going to happen. And of course, as soon as you said that, like I said, you know, two months after that, I got my diagnosis. And then, of course, again, we were like, now this has to be yet, right? It can’t get any worse than this.

00:28:20:04 – 00:28:24:12

Speaker 3

What else could happen in my two months later?

00:28:24:14 – 00:28:31:11

Jennifer Cairns

Presto. Yeah, a pandemic. So we kind of both looked at each other and said if either one of us opens our mouth.

00:28:31:13 – 00:28:38:01

Speaker 3

Yeah, no more making future predictions, right? Yes, folks, I work. oh, goodness.

00:28:38:03 – 00:28:44:23

Jennifer Cairns

So yeah. So it was a lot to I’m not going to lie, it was really a lot to cope with, to deal with. and we had seen.

00:28:44:23 – 00:28:48:14

Steven Schauer

Covid hinder your both of your recovery processes.

00:28:48:19 – 00:28:49:18

Jennifer Cairns

Oh for sure.

00:28:49:18 – 00:28:52:11

Steven Schauer

Because you’re considerably because of the.

00:28:52:12 – 00:28:53:13

Speaker 3

Yeah it did.

00:28:53:13 – 00:29:15:14

Jennifer Cairns

Now he was still able to go to the brain injury clinic because he was at luck. Luckily he had had a stroke beforehand and he was already, you know, on the list with the place in the system because they weren’t taking any new patients. I don’t think at that time. Yeah. so that was good. And then with myself, my first treatment I think was in June.

00:29:15:16 – 00:29:45:16

Jennifer Cairns

They did delay it a little bit. I think they were kind of hoping things would, you know, pass to some extent. and I did take my first treatment and June. But then of course doing that meant that the whole family out at that stage of everyone was shielding. Right. sure, sure. But then as things started to open up a bit, it made it actually more difficult for myself, for my family, because at that stage then we were really shielding and I didn’t really leave the house for three years.

00:29:45:18 – 00:30:10:23

Jennifer Cairns

because of my, you know, I had I was a immunosuppressant anyway, but, you know, because of treatments and things like that. Yeah, it was like nothing. And then there was an additional treatment they wanted to give me, because off the back of my cancer, I developed a thing called perennial plastic syndrome. So it’s kind of an autoimmune response to the cancer where my body and it’s, you know, great vigor to defeat the cancer cells, attacks, healthy nerve.

00:30:10:23 – 00:30:11:22

Steven Schauer

Cells, everything.

00:30:12:01 – 00:30:30:16

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. So it’s attacking nerve cells now along my neck and my spine. And, and now I think in my brain as well. So it’s called things like additional neuropathic stuff like, actually strange things like, I’m starting to lose the feeling in my toes and my fingers, which doesn’t sound like a lot, but it affects your dexterity.

00:30:30:18 – 00:30:45:18

Jennifer Cairns

You know, even things like typing on your phone or your keyboard, but then, like, feeling the face of your, your children, you know, and things like this. so, yeah, so kind of strange things. and then seizures and things like that, it’s caused. So, it’s good fun. Yes.

00:30:45:20 – 00:30:49:03

Steven Schauer

Sounds so sounds like just a party all the time.

00:30:49:05 – 00:30:51:20

Speaker 3

And is this said race? yeah.

00:30:51:23 – 00:30:54:12

Jennifer Cairns

I am a definitely an interesting cocktail.

00:30:54:18 – 00:30:55:04

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:30:55:04 – 00:31:00:01

Jennifer Cairns

Of a myriad of of a myriad of things, so to say, preciate.

00:31:00:01 – 00:31:02:17

Steven Schauer

The, you know, the dark humor and.

00:31:02:17 – 00:31:03:19

Speaker 3

Yeah, clearly.

00:31:03:19 – 00:31:11:02

Steven Schauer

The laughter and joy that you, you find in what is, is a list of incredibly hard things. So, I mean, you’re.

00:31:11:04 – 00:31:13:16

Jennifer Cairns

Well, if you’re still scared, don’t get me wrong.

00:31:13:18 – 00:31:14:11

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:31:14:13 – 00:31:34:19

Jennifer Cairns

You know, sometimes all of us can go through those periods where we say, why am I here? You know, and especially whether, you know, your condition or your disability can create those dark days or can create immense pain, you know, or suffering or whatever it is. So I understand that, and fully appreciate that as well.

00:31:34:19 – 00:31:36:19

Speaker 3

And. Yeah.

00:31:36:21 – 00:31:55:04

Jennifer Cairns

but yeah, I do think going through the things that have gone through that, I think why I’ve been able to come through is, I think partially is because of the way that my brain is made, you know, and I’m able to kind of deal. And I have such an immense amount of grit because I’ve had to growing up.

00:31:55:04 – 00:32:17:14

Jennifer Cairns

Right. I’ve had to resilient person. Not only was I born that way, but I think because of different things, you know, through life. Yeah, for sure. Of definitely have been sort of made that and made that way. And but yeah. So I’m an I’m proud of the fact that, you know, I was able to, you know, keep the family kind of together and going and I was everything perfect.

00:32:17:14 – 00:32:28:10

Jennifer Cairns

No. but we got through it, you know, and, and I think in a lot of ways we came through it a lot stronger, you know, even together as a family unit.

00:32:28:11 – 00:32:29:15

Speaker 3

it can happen. Absolutely.

00:32:29:18 – 00:32:53:02

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. And even on the business side, you know, that’s what it was in the the course of all of that whirlwind that was going on through my actually through my first treatment that I had the, the very first inclination for Lady Rebel Club, and had this huge, massive epiphany. And it was funny how you, you know, you mentioned even around like, the hiding aspect, right?

00:32:53:04 – 00:33:18:17

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. about how I could see and I hadn’t realized that about myself, which, of course, you know, usually we don’t see things in others first, but I could see on even on social media, there were so many women like myself in different Facebook groups or LinkedIn groups or things of this nature, who here and there would mention something about their, you know, disability or their chronic condition or, or whatever it might be?

00:33:18:19 – 00:33:34:21

Jennifer Cairns

but they didn’t want people to know, like they were. You could tell that they didn’t really want to talk about it. and when it was, it was very much in the, in the format of what other people think, you know, and how we have to be more and do more. And I started to, you know, think about that.

00:33:34:21 – 00:34:02:00

Jennifer Cairns

And like I said, it was almost within this. I felt like a millisecond almost. And I was thinking back, you know, all these scenarios flashing. I’m a very visual sort of thing, you know, flashing past my, my mind’s eye of you all and of how many times I said to my husband, our clients can’t know I have fibromyalgia, our clients cannabis, our clients can remember that, you know, and you didn’t want them to know anything because it really, truly is.

00:34:02:00 – 00:34:26:02

Jennifer Cairns

They think that we’re not as capable, right? Are you going to be able to get the work done? Are you lazy? You know, are you you know, are you worth me paying as much. Right. All of these kind and it doesn’t really matter where you live. Even in our new, fantastically supposedly advanced Western countries. And it’s very that thinking those biases is archaic.

00:34:26:02 – 00:34:28:11

Jennifer Cairns

Attitudes very much exist.

00:34:28:11 – 00:34:54:14

Steven Schauer

They are systemic and embedded. Absolutely. Which is why what you’re doing to shine a light on that in, in let’s, you know, say we should change that. Let’s at least acknowledge it’s there. Yes. They are these systemic, you know, you know, deeply flawed ways of thinking within our society that, you know, almost forced people to live a dual life like it was.

00:34:54:14 – 00:34:56:15

Steven Schauer

Sounds like you were describing there was you.

00:34:56:15 – 00:34:57:07

Speaker 3

Yes.

00:34:57:09 – 00:35:13:00

Steven Schauer

Who, you know, knew of these conditions and knew that that’s who you were. But then there was this persona. You felt pressured, it sounds like to me into into pretending to be. And that’s hard to live. Yeah. Two lives at one time.

00:35:13:00 – 00:35:14:12

Speaker 3

So it really.

00:35:14:12 – 00:35:15:01

Jennifer Cairns

Is.

00:35:15:03 – 00:35:15:15

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:35:15:15 – 00:35:24:12

Jennifer Cairns

About you know, it is. And I think when you look at it through, then the added container of right, I’m an entrepreneur, you know I have a business.

00:35:24:14 – 00:35:25:05

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:35:25:06 – 00:35:51:16

Jennifer Cairns

In that entrepreneurial space, that startup space, the business space is the whole really you know, there is that whole thing that comes into gender as well now. Sure. And it’s the intersectionality of all the different things and all the different layers, of course, it creates. And again, these are conversations that we have quite open and honestly, right in our community because we all have we’re all made up of different intersections.

00:35:51:18 – 00:36:17:14

Jennifer Cairns

sure of things. For instance, you know, if you’re a woman in business or an other marginalized gender, it is much more difficult. You know, we’re still not seen as capable or not seen as, you know, good enough to really be in the room half the time alone, sat at the table to be funded, you know, investment funding, grants, all of that were way under, under supported financially.

00:36:17:16 – 00:36:45:08

Jennifer Cairns

yeah. It’s just all of those things and of course, all of the attitudes and things like that, despite the fact that when women are on the boards, they do tend to actually, you know, even like very large organizations, the, you know, the revenue and profit margins are more and that’s just kind of a fact. So, yeah, it’s interesting that, but then when you add in those additional layers of right of a woman are marginalized, you know, other marginalized gender right tech, but I also have this disability.

00:36:45:08 – 00:37:08:00

Jennifer Cairns

Oh, that’s another one. And then on, I’m also neurodivergent. Oh, that’s another one. depending maybe on where you live, you know, depending on your age, whether you’re too young or too old, you know, your sexuality even, you know, of course, the color, you know. Yes. Your, you know, your race or ethnicity, culture, even so many things might come into play.

00:37:08:02 – 00:37:29:05

Jennifer Cairns

Right? and, you know, it was funny because there’s a lady in our, in our community who became quite friends with, you know, and we would laugh and she would say yes, or, you know, like a black, a black single, you know, gay mom who’s neurodivergent and has fibromyalgia and, and other things. You know, I’m like the massive.

00:37:29:07 – 00:37:29:15

Speaker 3

You know.

00:37:29:17 – 00:37:49:01

Jennifer Cairns

Like the mass of all of the things, right? Yeah. and but it’s only when we have these kind of conversations. It’s not about like, blame. It’s not like about wanting to take anything from anybody else, but it’s just being able to have conversations and say, hey, these things, this is what’s going on, right? So how can we create?

00:37:49:01 – 00:38:09:13

Jennifer Cairns

Yes. How can we create a society that actually benefits everyone, where everyone is seen as having value in everyone? You know, rather than having that lens of, no, you’re not as capable or you’re not as worthy, how can we have a lens of right your experience in some way, whatever your life experiences, matters in some way. What can we learn from that?

00:38:09:13 – 00:38:42:12

Jennifer Cairns

What can you share from that? What you know that has a value. And I think if all of us can just understand that, although many of us. Yes, because we like to organize things that our brains do naturally, we we fall into these natural categories. But every individual is unique. So, and it’s not just neurodivergent. People were all unique, you know, all of us, our brains, our physiology, like, everything that makes us, us, our experience, childhood experiences, our traumas that we’ve had, the, you know, the joys in our life, whatever it might be.

00:38:42:13 – 00:39:05:00

Jennifer Cairns

All of those things make us unique. And if we can find a way to, I guess, be more open, you know, to understanding that even if we don’t agree with someone, even if maybe we can’t quite understand where they’re coming from or don’t understand maybe something that they’ve gone through, but understand that they as that unique individual, what those unique experiences have value.

00:39:05:02 – 00:39:14:02

Jennifer Cairns

Right. So now how can we all put this value together to make things better for all of us, not just maybe specific groups in specific countries and specific ways.

00:39:14:04 – 00:39:14:11

Speaker 3

Right.

00:39:14:11 – 00:39:34:09

Steven Schauer

So so that’s what you’re trying to do, I think with Lady Rebel Club. Is that correct? Tell us a little bit about what the Rebel Club is and and how folks can get involved in it or. Yeah, share or benefit from it. So, you know, tell me tell me more about this, adventure of yours.

00:39:34:11 – 00:39:49:06

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. Well, this is it. So I realized that now I came up with the name from it, funnily enough, right away, and I knew it was great. I have a, my, my main background was in sort of brand and strategy, so I was like, right, this is a good one. We need to trademark it. I don’t know what it’s going to be.

00:39:49:08 – 00:39:50:00

Speaker 3

Yeah, okay.

00:39:50:01 – 00:40:09:17

Jennifer Cairns

But we’re going to do something with it. And then I really spent about 2 or 3 years not knowing, you know, like I said, what was going to happen, but just really immersing myself even more with our with with people who, you know, who might be in that community. and it kind of started off with ideas around just hidden disabilities.

00:40:09:17 – 00:40:29:12

Jennifer Cairns

And then I realized, no, that’s not again, that’s segmenting. Rather than looking at the, you know, the intersectionality of all of us. And I couldn’t quite find an organization, especially a global, you know, what, even to be a global one that really looked at us as a whole. So the human as a whole, with all.

00:40:29:15 – 00:40:30:17

Speaker 3

With all.

00:40:30:19 – 00:40:51:11

Jennifer Cairns

Types of disabilities. Right. and neurodiversity, because again, those can tend to go hand in hand with a lot of us in different ways. and, and our allies and with our allies as well, because, you know, there’s a lot of, you know, men who support us, men who maybe have disabilities, don’t have disabilities who are neurodivergent or not.

00:40:51:13 – 00:41:21:22

Jennifer Cairns

but they see the value in what we’re doing, and the benefit that it can bring to the economies worldwide. right. You know, and I think it was I think it was access to funding. apologies. That’s incorrect. But I believe those access the report by access to funding who had said that if, if investors were to invest in businesses that were, like, owned by disabled founders, like they would have, there would be more than like 500 million and returns annually.

00:41:22:00 – 00:41:45:16

Jennifer Cairns

That would increase by five per million. and here in the UK, you know, 25% of and it’s actually higher because that’s just going on disability. And I’m lucky that there’s a lot of us who don’t disclose our, you know, disclose our disability or in our divergences either. but 25% of us entrepreneurs and founders in the UK alone are, yeah, would be classed as disabled.

00:41:45:18 – 00:42:12:02

Jennifer Cairns

so imagine if we got the support that we needed, you know, we’re 400 times less likely. Let me correct 400 times. I just, stress that less likely to be invested in and funded than somebody who is not disabled or has disclosed their disability. Yeah. however, if you’re ADHD, you’re actually 300 times more likely to be an entrepreneur.

00:42:12:03 – 00:42:15:02

Jennifer Cairns

Now, when you look at the disparity between those.

00:42:15:02 – 00:42:15:21

Speaker 3

Stats.

00:42:15:23 – 00:42:16:15

Steven Schauer

Yeah, it’s.

00:42:16:15 – 00:42:39:19

Jennifer Cairns

Huge. Yeah. So imagine if we were able to better support, you know, those of us who are ADHD, you know, who are entrepreneurs everywhere, support, not just that, you know, of course, all of us better and empower us. The difference that that could make, you know, to the global economies. yeah, it would be huge.

00:42:39:19 – 00:43:00:10

Jennifer Cairns

You know, and even when you look at like, small businesses, small businesses are the backbone of all economies. And, you know, so many small business owners, again, are disabled. So through that process, you know, it’s not just to support us because we deserve it, but it can make really, you know, huge impact, you know, in the, in, in the world.

00:43:00:12 – 00:43:26:20

Jennifer Cairns

and I think that that’s something that very, very, very slowly institutions and governments are starting to wake up to and yeah, and hopefully that will provide a bit of a quicker pace. I would like to see, you know, but hopefully that will start to result in not just organizations seeing the benefit of maybe employing more just of people just, you know, disabled and or different people and how we can support them.

00:43:26:22 – 00:43:31:14

Jennifer Cairns

but how we can help them, you know, to run empowering businesses.

00:43:31:18 – 00:43:32:12

Speaker 3

Yeah. You know.

00:43:32:13 – 00:43:33:22

Steven Schauer

That entrepreneurial of.

00:43:34:00 – 00:43:35:07

Speaker 3

Yes, exactly.

00:43:35:07 – 00:43:38:10

Steven Schauer

Naturally drawn to that anyway. Right.

00:43:38:12 – 00:43:59:04

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. And a lot of us do it. Some of us do it out of, you know, need because we just can’t work, you know, for whatever reason and, and that situation. But also a lot of us do it because we are very impact driven. You know, when when you look at like whether you’re an eco entrepreneur or a social impact entrepreneur, like, you know, like I am or whatever, you know, whatever kind of label you want to give it.

00:43:59:06 – 00:44:28:20

Jennifer Cairns

So many of us are very impact driven because we have had to fight and yeah, you know, and and yeah, and for everything that we’ve had, you know, it has taken such grit and determination and, creative thinking and problem solving and, you know, and all the great things, of course, make, you know, great entrepreneurs, and business owners who we’ve had a, you know, we really have had to fight for a lot of that, and worked really, really hard, you know, to, to get to where we are.

00:44:28:21 – 00:44:42:20

Jennifer Cairns

so, yeah, so I think that there’s, there’s, there’s a lot that we can bring, you know, to, to, to the table, so to say, and hopefully those, those empower, you know, if you’re watching.

00:44:42:22 – 00:44:43:13

Speaker 3

Yes.

00:44:43:15 – 00:44:46:10

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. We’ll eventually, you know, sort of start to see that.

00:44:46:10 – 00:44:47:07

Speaker 3

So yes.

00:44:47:09 – 00:44:48:18

Jennifer Cairns

That’s you know, that’s really what we need.

00:44:48:18 – 00:44:54:07

Steven Schauer

And we support those, who are trying to get into power that, that might want to help facilitate those changes.

00:44:54:07 – 00:45:03:14

Jennifer Cairns

Yes, yes. And that’s, you know, where the idea was, because I always knew that funding, again, was such an issue with all of us. And although it’s very small now, you know, the Frankies Fund, which is named after my sister.

00:45:03:16 – 00:45:04:06

Steven Schauer

Yeah.

00:45:04:08 – 00:45:26:13

Jennifer Cairns

You know, if, if even, you know, even like with a local, there was a local, you know, artist here, who received, a small, you know, an art award, you know, for, for some of her work and things. And, she’s a single mom, you know, an artist and just, you know, a just a fabulous, just a fabulous girl, you know?

00:45:26:13 – 00:45:47:06

Jennifer Cairns

She’s lovely. it was so empowering for her to receive that, even though it wasn’t a lot of money. Just the fact that other people also believe in her and see the potential that she has. And so, yes, money is part of it, but it’s also just letting others know that we believe, you know, we believe in what they can do.

00:45:47:06 – 00:46:04:18

Jennifer Cairns

We believe in their potential. And. Yeah. but that also that’s carving that out. And I think, you know, part of our message is, yes, we shouldn’t have to hide. And it goes back to hiding and we shouldn’t have to hide who we are, our disability, our neurodiversity or whatever it is. Right. That can apply to to a lot of us in many different ways.

00:46:04:18 – 00:46:23:14

Jennifer Cairns

Sure. In order to be seen as valuable, or capable or or accepted, you know, and I think that that’s, that’s a huge part of our overall, movement and, and, and I guess, message, you know, that we have in general.

00:46:23:16 – 00:46:24:12

Speaker 3

Yeah. so.

00:46:24:12 – 00:46:26:06

Steven Schauer

Your hashtag no more hiding.

00:46:26:08 – 00:46:45:13

Jennifer Cairns

Yes, yes. So that’s, that’s a huge, a huge part of because that’s the first step, I think for all of us. And it was only when I stopped hiding from myself. Right, right from others that I could really own. Who all of who I was, but also, again, you know, and this applies to, you know, our general life as well.

00:46:45:13 – 00:47:01:12

Jennifer Cairns

But in business, I could actually start to I could really look at all of the things. Right? Because we all have strengths and weaknesses. Well, things we’re good at. We all have things that so not so hot out, right? We need to start with maybe we need to, you know, uplevel our skills or what, you know, or whatever it might be.

00:47:01:14 – 00:47:18:01

Jennifer Cairns

and once I really start to look at all that, I could really figure out how is it that I need to work best? Get rid of the cookie cutters, get rid of all you know the gurus. Go away. This is how you have to do it. Let’s figure out how I need to do it. So yeah, it was both working within the context of the business.

00:47:18:03 – 00:47:42:07

Jennifer Cairns

but then also figuring out, well, what does actual success look like for me? What is it that I want out of this? and yes, of course, there’s like, you know, big giant, you know, visions and visions that we have that we want in the impacts that we want to make. Then on a personal note, there’s things that are important to me as well, you know, and being happy, actually being happy in the business, being happy doesn’t mean I’m going to.

00:47:42:08 – 00:47:54:00

Jennifer Cairns

Things aren’t going to be hard at times. Everything’s going to be easy. Being happy, doing the work that I’m doing. and and the purpose that I’m doing it for is very, very, you know, important to me.

00:47:54:02 – 00:48:01:11

Steven Schauer

Yeah. Adding in life is. Yeah, we all need that. We all. Yes. We all need that. Yeah. Purpose. Right?

00:48:01:13 – 00:48:17:04

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. And I don’t think a lot of us, though, who, you know, when we go into business, we even if we have that aspiration initially because it is difficult many times, you know, we have to start again and we try something new and sure, you know, and that’s very, very common. Of course we’ve done that, you know, as well.

00:48:17:06 – 00:48:42:11

Jennifer Cairns

But there’s, you know, there’s other opportunity for. Just for us to, to be able to connect with what it really looks like for us. You know, whether it’s I don’t want to make 100 million pounds a year, you know, I’m happy to make this. What’s most important to me is to have that time with my family or whatever it might be.

00:48:42:13 – 00:48:47:06

Jennifer Cairns

I think, too often we have people, you know, again, we have those cookie cutters and this is.

00:48:47:06 – 00:48:48:05

Speaker 3

What we need to fit.

00:48:48:05 – 00:48:49:01

Steven Schauer

In this box.

00:48:49:01 – 00:48:50:18

Speaker 3

Exactly. Yes. Right.

00:48:50:20 – 00:48:59:18

Jennifer Cairns

so yeah, we’re it’s in fact, that’s, you know, a new hashtag. You’re going to start to actually see it soon is kind of like bound the boxes and the cookie cutters, because I think that those are important.

00:48:59:18 – 00:49:00:01

Steven Schauer

I will.

00:49:00:01 – 00:49:00:18

Speaker 3

Support those.

00:49:01:00 – 00:49:01:13

Steven Schauer

Tags.

00:49:01:15 – 00:49:04:11

Speaker 3

Absolutely, absolutely.

00:49:04:13 – 00:49:30:13

Steven Schauer

So if someone goes to Lady Rebel club.com, they’re also going to see I think, you’re promoting a one day rebellion. A global hybrid event is coming this October 2024. What is that? What is and how what is it? How can people get involved in it and support you? Oh, even if it’s not, then how can people support you and or the event?

00:49:30:14 – 00:49:52:18

Jennifer Cairns

Yes. Well, the event is So yeah, it’s just kind of what it says on the tin. It’s meant to just be a global hybrid event. So we’re gonna have a very small local event in Dublin. and then we have some partners, you know, globally that, will be working with to bring some content from their locations and different things like that.

00:49:52:19 – 00:50:18:22

Jennifer Cairns

it’s all about creating a truly inclusive and diverse entrepreneurial festival, if you will. So it’ll start off very small. Of course. This is the first one. Yeah. but we yeah, we, we want to have like a diverse, tea room fashion show. We’re going to have some arts, we’re going to have some music. But of course like speakers, you know, and different things like that in different breakout rooms to do different things.

00:50:19:02 – 00:50:26:21

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. and a little bit of a tech theme as well. So we have yeah. I won’t go into too much detail because I want.

00:50:26:22 – 00:50:28:10

Speaker 3

To say that sign up. Yes.

00:50:28:14 – 00:50:29:21

Steven Schauer

Attend the event if you like.

00:50:29:21 – 00:50:32:19

Speaker 3

Exactly about the, the tech thing.

00:50:32:19 – 00:50:33:12

Steven Schauer

Absolutely.

00:50:33:12 – 00:50:40:09

Jennifer Cairns

Exactly. Yeah. and there’s going to be, you know, no cost to, to our community as well, which is, which is a good thing. Yeah. So,

00:50:40:10 – 00:50:40:17

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:50:40:18 – 00:50:57:03

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. And it’s all about that having those barriers and. Right, it’s going to be wrong as well as our, you know, of course, our community can, you know, they can work with us at the magazine. They can, you know, if they wanted to, to pay to be a sponsor, they could do like different, you know, buy merchandise or different kinds of things like that.

00:50:57:04 – 00:51:00:15

Steven Schauer

And it’s we roar we roar magazine. Right. I want to make sure that.

00:51:00:15 – 00:51:23:19

Jennifer Cairns

So that’s a that’s a big a big platform. So we have so one of the things specifically for our community as a whole, what we could see after, you know, years of kind of researching and things like that is that it is that equity of opportunity that’s missing. So, especially for them to have more money, and then to make more impact.

00:51:23:19 – 00:51:46:03

Jennifer Cairns

Again, a lot of us are very impact driven. So, part of that process to, to allow both of those to happen, we could see in the media. And I know with your background, you’ll probably, you know, may understand this as well. but a lot of times when we bring stories to the media, and I’ve had quite a lot of media PR and it’s been fantastic and I’m very thankful for all of it.

00:51:46:05 – 00:52:12:09

Jennifer Cairns

but, you know, we have to adapt ourselves and our story to what that needs, how it needs to be positioned. And, you know, I’ll, you know, all of that kind of stuff. so it doesn’t always suit us, you know, it might, might not always have the benefit for us that we would like. and I think also in the media, unfortunately, a lot of times people like us are either super ified, meaning we’re complete superheroes and everything.

00:52:12:09 – 00:52:32:02

Jennifer Cairns

Look at all this wonderful stuff and, you know. Yeah. And it kind of the example I always like to give because I will never forget this. was, a lady I saw, she was the photographs were just brilliant, you know, dressed all in white House, immaculate 12 kids or something like, I think it was 12, 10 or 12 kids all in white.

00:52:32:02 – 00:52:38:00

Jennifer Cairns

You know, life is perfect. And I’m know she was ADHD. And I’m going, this is not true.

00:52:38:02 – 00:52:41:07

Speaker 3

Right? So first of all, if you.

00:52:41:07 – 00:52:42:05

Jennifer Cairns

Have ten kids, you.

00:52:42:05 – 00:52:48:21

Speaker 3

Know, yeah, there’s no way they just got calm at home right? Yes. Yeah. Right.

00:52:48:23 – 00:53:08:05

Jennifer Cairns

But yes. Super fight. And unfortunately the effects that that, that has, you know, on others were going well why can that why is my life not like that. Why do right. Why does my house not look like that? How come I can’t function like that? Right. Or on the other side? Worse. Sad puppies and. Yeah, it’s like what?

00:53:08:07 – 00:53:16:23

Jennifer Cairns

What is the point of going on living, right? Because we’re so sad and miserable. Yeah. Which again, of course affects, you know, a lot of us and, and negative ways.

00:53:17:01 – 00:53:18:03

Steven Schauer

It’s a stigma.

00:53:18:05 – 00:53:44:09

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. So we could see where there was a huge void of having really our genuine stories and missions. You know, even if it’s something whatever it is that we want to talk about, some of us have created businesses, you know, like I have that’s around disability or adversity. Some of us haven’t, you know, and if it’s if it’s not, and if that isn’t critical to the story, everything shouldn’t hinge on, you know, that one fact.

00:53:44:09 – 00:54:04:03

Jennifer Cairns

Right? So yeah, the way that we conduct all of our interviews and everything is, you know, it’s it’s not poised around that, that this is the thing that you have to talk about. Let them again, share their stories in a way that really kind of suits them. Yeah. And we’ve had really great. Yeah, we’ve had really great, successes.

00:54:04:03 – 00:54:18:08

Jennifer Cairns

Not perfect, you know, by any means. but we’ve have some really great collaborations with partners who share the magazine, you know, with, with their communities. And everything that we do is about collaboration. So, yeah.

00:54:18:09 – 00:54:19:04

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:54:19:06 – 00:54:23:02

Jennifer Cairns

these what we call them rebel collaborations, of course, because we have to brand it, right?

00:54:23:04 – 00:54:27:02

Speaker 3

Yeah. Of course. Yes, of course I love it. Love it.

00:54:27:04 – 00:54:46:20

Jennifer Cairns

But it’s. Yeah. So it’s it’s working with with partners who, we’ll share the, you know, share the magazine with our communities. We give them maybe some of them space. Not even all of them, have asked for it. The space of the magazine. Well, we can then, you know, promote them, but also their community, for instance. so it’s a it’s about creating is win win wins for everyone.

00:54:47:02 – 00:55:04:06

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. Which I think is really, really important. And it’s allowed us, you know, off the back of just our second issue, it was over a million people that the magazine had gone out to so direct vivo. and considering it at that time, I think our, our list was only like 200 people because we just started it, you know, it was.

00:55:04:11 – 00:55:37:07

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah, it was really powerful. So, and then we have like a podcast. It’s starting back up soon. and TV network as well. Okay. streaming network. Yeah. So again, the more that we can get like with the event, like with the media, with the tech things that we’re working on, just trying as many ways as possible, you know, to think of how we can create this equity of opportunity for our community, as well as, you know, collaborating with our allies to, to improve things for all of us.

00:55:37:09 – 00:55:59:18

Steven Schauer

Fantastic. Well, I want to be respectful of your time as well, Jennifer. So, let me transition into, you know, kind of giving you the floor again. But what what’s your call to action if you know somebody listening to this and, and inspired by everything that you shared, which I can’t imagine, they won’t because it’s a wonderful story that.

00:55:59:20 – 00:56:00:20

Speaker 3

They found you and your.

00:56:00:20 – 00:56:22:07

Steven Schauer

Journey is very powerful. And I appreciate your willingness to share it on my show. what’s your call to action? What can people do to support Lady Rebel Club support? you know, making a more equitable world, around gender and neurodiversity. What what do you want people to take away from, listening to this episode today?

00:56:22:09 – 00:56:56:01

Jennifer Cairns

Although I would say the first and foremost would be, that. If and if you identify with any of the things that we’ve talked with today is to know that you’re not alone. Yeah. No, you’re not broken. You’re not less than, that you have immense worth. and yeah, just and I would just encourage you to try to work to, to find that if you don’t feel that you have it right now because it’s there.

00:56:56:03 – 00:57:01:10

Jennifer Cairns

Yeah. even if that means getting external support, you know, to do that, which at times we all have to do.

00:57:01:11 – 00:57:03:01

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:57:03:03 – 00:57:20:02

Jennifer Cairns

You know, and I guess beyond that is just connect with us, you know, we have a saying or we say, like, there’s nothing that you have to join or you have to join this membership or you have to do that. If you’re one of us, you’re one of us. That’s it. You know, if you would like to connect with us more of, feel free to, you know, go to the website.

00:57:20:02 – 00:57:40:13

Jennifer Cairns

You can drop us an email. you can, you know, follow us on, of course, on our socials. and yeah, we’re very happy to connect with with with people. And even if maybe you don’t feel like you’re in our community, but you want to support our community, like our mission and you, you know, could see it aligned values.

00:57:40:13 – 00:57:52:20

Jennifer Cairns

Again, feel free to reach out to us. in any way. And we’re we’re continually looking for more partners connect with us and, and then hearing from our community and how we can better support them.

00:57:52:22 – 00:58:18:00

Steven Schauer

Fantastic. Well, it’s again Lady Rebel club.com. I’ll make sure to put in the notes page of this link, the link, all of the social media channels and the other links, that you shared with me offline, that will all be available for anybody who’s listening, who wants to, you know, get engaged, contact you, support you, you know, you know, just join you in the movement that you’re starting.

00:58:18:02 – 00:58:36:08

Steven Schauer

or someone who needs your help and, you know, direction and and as you said, they need that support system that they can identify with. So I hope, that, people can connect and continue to, to, you know, find this equitable space that we can all share, right?

00:58:36:09 – 00:58:36:20

Speaker 3

Yeah.

00:58:36:21 – 00:58:40:15

Steven Schauer

So we’re, I think trying to accomplish so.

00:58:40:17 – 00:58:46:21

Jennifer Cairns

And thank you as well, Steven, for being such a gracious host and, for inviting me on to the show. It’s been lovely.

00:58:46:23 – 00:59:09:12

Steven Schauer

Yeah, I would you’ve I’m so grateful to have the opportunity to speak with you. so, Jennifer, we end the show. Every show ends. this the same. We talk about different subjects all under kind of this broad umbrella of sustainability. And social equity is certainly part of sustainability. Undoubtedly an important part of it. but these are these are hard subjects, right?

00:59:09:12 – 00:59:32:05

Steven Schauer

We talked about some, some difficult things today. And I like to, follow up these calls to actions by ending each episode with, with a little bit of hope and hope being defined as this idea of you can envision a better future, but you also feel you have the agency to help make it come to be now, without hardships, not without challenges, and maybe not without failure.

00:59:32:05 – 00:59:53:17

Steven Schauer

But there’s this vision and you feel you can do something to help it become reality. So, I love hearing from my guests what their hope is for the future. So I’m going to throw three questions out at you. Real quick and just give me a your kind of gut reaction of of what the what the answer is to the to the question.

00:59:53:18 – 00:59:57:15

Speaker 3

I would do my best. Yeah. Of course. First I’ll try not to believe me.

00:59:57:17 – 01:00:11:22

Steven Schauer

Yeah. You’re going to because you. So what is your vision for a better future? Jennifer. And it could be just personally. Professionally or for the globe. Just what’s your vision for a better future?

01:00:12:00 – 01:00:34:01

Jennifer Cairns

I think it’s just that we see that we understand that everyone has value, you know? And I think if we can, when we look at people, when we speak to people, we first meet people, we first hire them. Whatever the situation is, if we can say it ourselves, you know? Yeah, maybe not. Maybe we don’t know the value that they bring to the table, but yeah, they have value.

01:00:34:03 – 01:00:40:21

Jennifer Cairns

and that being different in whatever way, you know, it doesn’t necessarily make them less than. Right.

01:00:40:23 – 01:00:46:23

Steven Schauer

Right. So why is that your vision for a better future?

01:00:47:01 – 01:01:12:03

Jennifer Cairns

Because I think that we as I’ve said previously, we all are individuals. We all are unique. You know, it’s been so many things, whether it’s nature, whether it’s environment, you know, the journey to to where we are today, right now, having this conversation, you know, has made me, who I am and you who you are. And we’re very different, you know, people were all we’re all unique.

01:01:12:03 – 01:01:37:14

Jennifer Cairns

And if we can actually understand that and appreciate and see the wonder, I think in that as well. Right. The wonder and the curiosity, you know, this is probably why kids in general, especially when they’re younger, get along so much better. And. Yeah, and I think we almost need to go back to that, like childhood, we were inquisitive where we don’t assume we know all the answers because this is a previous experience that we’ve had.

01:01:37:16 – 01:01:57:09

Jennifer Cairns

or this is what I’ve been taught. This is what I’ve read or, you know, or whatever it might be. so we can have that curiosity, that that interest really, you know, want to understand people and learn from them. And again, if we see something different, not necessarily go, oh, well, that that’s not for me, you know, why are they that way.

01:01:57:11 – 01:02:26:07

Jennifer Cairns

right. But go over, you know, approach it with curiosity. Well, you know, I wonder, I wonder, you know, how they do x, y, and Z a lot of times, you know, ask us this. We don’t we don’t mind, you know, we’re humans. We’re all, you know, inquisitive in some way, shape or form. so, yeah, just having those conversations and being curious and, and seeing the wonder I think in life in general is a big biggie.

01:02:26:09 – 01:02:53:08

Steven Schauer

So the final question, imagine your future scenario where everybody is seen as having inherent value, and we’re treating each other with kindness and compassion and inquisitive natures, as opposed to boxing people in their, things. So that future is a reality. It’s it’s happening right now. How does that make you feel?

01:02:53:10 – 01:02:56:11

Jennifer Cairns

Content. Like job done.

01:02:56:13 – 01:02:57:16

Steven Schauer

Nice.

01:02:57:18 – 01:02:59:10

Speaker 3

Yeah. Right.

01:02:59:12 – 01:03:13:04

Steven Schauer

Well, Jennifer, I am going to join you in working for that vision. I hope to do my part with it, however small that is to to help create that world, because it’s a beautiful vision, and I want to be part of that, too. So.

01:03:13:06 – 01:03:15:03

Jennifer Cairns

we are helping right now, so thank you.

01:03:15:05 – 01:03:35:16

Steven Schauer

Wonderful. well, thank you so much for your time. And it’s been an absolute joy speaking with you and I. I wanted there was one other thing. I think I wrote a note that I want to make sure I share, because I thought it was something that was really important. Part of your message. I saw this on one of your LinkedIn posts.

01:03:35:18 – 01:04:01:20

Steven Schauer

and it’s I’m going to summarize it. So please, clarify it if I, if I’m off base in my summary. But you’re you’d basically said something to the effect of if I tell you I have autism, don’t tell me you’re sorry. And don’t ask me to do a trick. you know, and I think that’s beautiful. It’s it’s just summarize, like, treat you as another person with inherent worth.

01:04:01:22 – 01:04:07:12

Steven Schauer

The inherent value is, I think, what you’re asking us to do. And and did I capture that correctly?

01:04:07:14 – 01:04:09:07

Jennifer Cairns

Yes, very much so.

01:04:09:09 – 01:04:10:06

Speaker 3

Yeah.

01:04:10:08 – 01:04:11:00

Jennifer Cairns

Thank you.

01:04:11:02 – 01:04:22:07

Steven Schauer

Jennifer, thank you very much for your time today. and I look forward to supporting Lady Rebel Club and all of the things that you’re doing next to make this world a better place. So thank you for all that you’re doing.

01:04:22:09 – 01:04:23:18

Jennifer Cairns

Thank you. Steven.

01:04:23:20 – 01:04:25:07

Steven Schauer

All right. Goodbye.

01:04:25:07 – 01:04:56:18

Steven Schauer

All right, well, that wraps up another episode of Stories Sustain Us. I want to extend my sincere gratitude to Jennifer Cairns for sharing her powerful and inspiring journey with us today. To me, Jennifer’s story highlights the importance of creating equity of opportunity for all. I really appreciated the point she made when saying that investing in disabled founders not only brings economic benefits, but also enriches our global economies with unique perspectives and innovative problem solving skills.

01:04:56:19 – 01:05:27:04

Steven Schauer

Equity clearly fits into conversations about sustainability because a truly sustainable future must be inclusive, supporting and empowering women and other marginalized genders, as well as individuals with disabilities and neuro divergences, is crucial for building a more equitable society. We all have a role to play, including institutions and governments, in recognizing the value of employing and supporting disabled and neurodivergent individuals in their entrepreneurial endeavors.

01:05:27:06 – 01:05:56:00

Steven Schauer

Connecting with organizations like Lady Rebel Club can help us support the mission of creating equity of opportunity for all. Fostering a diverse and inclusive entrepreneurial landscape. For me, Jennifer’s experiences also underscore the need for real conversations about mental health and neurodiversity to foster a more inclusive and supportive society. Normalizing these conversations can reduce stigma and promote a culture of understanding.

01:05:56:02 – 01:06:30:01

Steven Schauer

You know, I think something happened in this interview that I hope you picked up on. It was clear to me while it was happening, and it’s this idea of a positive reinforcement loop, as Jennifer was sharing so openly and honestly and vulnerably about her experience with mental health, issues and neurodivergent diagnoses, it really created the safe space for me to share about my, issues with, mental health.

01:06:30:03 – 01:06:57:11

Steven Schauer

I didn’t know when or if I was ever going to share on this podcast, that I am an alcoholic in recovery or, you know, have a diagnosis of substance use disorder. thankfully, I’ve been in recovery a long time, been sober for over 18 years, and it’s a wonderful life. And, I can’t imagine going back to what it used to be, but it’s something that I wasn’t sure I was ever going to bring up on this show.

01:06:57:13 – 01:07:23:09

Steven Schauer

not because I’m, you know, embarrassed about it, but it’s. I didn’t know if I’d ever fit in to the to the purpose of the podcast, but really witnessing Jennifer speak so openly and honestly and vulnerable about her life and her journey and normalizing the conversation around those hard subjects really opened the door for me to share about my story and my journey as well.

01:07:23:11 – 01:07:56:18

Steven Schauer

And I think that’s how we do that. Someone is open, honest and vulnerable. normalizing a conversation gives that freedom for somebody else to join in and be open, honest and vulnerable, which then further normalizes that conversation and that positive loop then continues. So I would encourage you all, to find those safe spaces, you know, with family or friends, counselors, support groups, wherever you, may need to find that safe space.

01:07:56:19 – 01:08:22:11

Steven Schauer

doctors, therapists, whatever the lists are out there. but find that safe space where you can be open, honest, and vulnerable about, whatever mental health challenges or neurodivergent diagnoses or physical health challenges that you’re facing. you know, for far too long, these types of issues, mental health and neurodivergent, issues in particular, were seen as something that shouldn’t be talked about.

01:08:22:11 – 01:08:54:08

Steven Schauer

And, and for far too long, people would live in the shadows and suffer alone in silence. And that’s not necessary anymore. We don’t need to be afraid of having hard conversations around these very real issues of mental health and neurodivergent diagnoses or physical health, diagnoses, for that matter, as well. the more we shine light on these issues, the more folks can come from the shadows and get the help that they need.

01:08:54:08 – 01:09:30:10

Steven Schauer

There is help out there. And as someone who has spent a portion of my life living in the shadow of suffering silently, my life changed immensely for the better. When I finally acknowledged I had a problem and sought help for it. so I want to sincerely thank Jennifer for demonstrating how to do it, how to have a conversation where you’re open, honest, and vulnerable so that you can normalize, a difficult conversation for someone else to feel safe and get the help they need.

01:09:30:11 – 01:09:55:19

Steven Schauer

I really, truly can’t thank Jennifer enough for leading by example. and you audience members, thank you, for being here as well and joining us on this journey today. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please subscribe, leave a review and share it with your friends and family. Helps spread the word. would really appreciate it. Together, I’m confident we can create a more sustainable and equitable world.

01:09:55:20 – 01:10:22:07

Steven Schauer

And before we go, as I do every week, I want to give a quick plug for the next episode of story. Sustain us next week. My guest is a passionate tech enthusiast with a, remarkable interdisciplinary background in digital media and game development. Her entrepreneurial spirit and visionary mindset has seamlessly combined the physical and digital realms, revolutionizing the way fashion is experienced.

01:10:22:09 – 01:10:47:20

Steven Schauer

Personally, I learned a lot of new information about AI and extended Reality, or XR, which is an umbrella term for technologies that combine the real and virtual worlds to create immersive experiences. It was a truly fascinating conversation, and you’re not going to want to miss it. So you can catch episode number seven of Story Sustain Us on July 30th wherever you listen to podcasts or on story, sustain us dot com.

01:10:47:22 – 01:10:55:10

Steven Schauer

So until next time, I’m Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself and each other. Take care.

Listen to the podcast or watch the full interview.

Summary

Yemi Scott, a Nigerian-born creative professional, shares her journey of adventure and exploration that led her to Aberdeen, Scotland. From a young age, Yemi had a passion for movement and risk-taking, always seeking new adventures. She traveled to Brunei with her husband and embraced the opportunity to volunteer and meet new people. After five years, they returned to Nigeria, where Yemi enjoyed being back home and spending time with family. Eventually, they decided to move to Aberdeen, where Yemi instantly fell in love with the city. Yemi’s childhood was filled with creativity, from making clothes for her dolls to coding her first game at the age of seven. She pursued a career in mass communication and TV production, where she honed her skills in editing and animation. Yemi’s story is a testament to the power of following your passions and embracing new opportunities. Yemi Scott discusses her transition from game development to fashion and how she incorporated digital technology into her fashion brand. She explains how she discovered the potential of virtual environments and 3D simulation for fashion design. Yemi emphasizes the importance of sustainability in the fashion industry and the need to challenge the fast fashion model. She praises Generation Z for their conscious consumerism and their ability to hold brands accountable. Yemi also credits Clubhouse for helping her find her community and build her confidence in pioneering the digital fashion space. Yemi Scott envisions a future of equality and collective collaboration, where humanity works together for the betterment of the planet. She believes in the power of technology to bring people together and create positive change. Yemi’s hope is for a world where everyone is seen and valued, and where cultural diversity is celebrated. She encourages people to stay open-minded, ask the right questions, and maximize the potential of technology. Yemi’s vision for the future is one of peace, belonging, and unity.

About the Guest

Yemi Scott is a passionate tech-enthusiast with a remarkable interdisciplinary background in digital media and game development. Her entrepreneurial spirit and visionary mindset have propelled her to trailblaze in the captivating world of phygital fashion. This unique approach seamlessly combines the physical and digital realms, revolutionizing the way fashion is experienced. As the founder of Quirky Couture Inc and XRology Ltd, Ibiyemi has ventured into the emerging Web 3 space, establishing herself as a pioneer. With an unwavering passion for immersive technology, she dedicates herself to helping businesses harness the power of cutting-edge AI and XR technologies, aiming to optimize processes and make significant strides towards achieving low carbon emissions.

Yemi Scott LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yemi-scott-8b2a1028/

Show Notes

XRology LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/xrology-ltd/?originalSubdomain=uk

Key Words

adventure, exploration, Nigeria, Brunei, Aberdeen, creativity, TV production, editing, animation, transition, game development, fashion, digital technology, virtual environments, 3D simulation, sustainability, fast fashion, Generation Z, conscious consumerism, Clubhouse, equality, collaboration, technology, collective, future, peace, belonging, unity

Transcript

Transcript

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:31:18
Steven Schauer
Welcome back to another episode of Stories Sustain Us, the podcast, where we’re exploring inspiring stories of creativity, passion and innovation that help shape our sustainable world. I’m your host, Steven Schauer, and today we have a guest who embodies all of these qualities and more. In this episode, we’re joined by the incredibly talented Yemi Scott. Emmy’s journey is a testament to the power of embracing opportunities, following your passions, and never being afraid to try something new.

00:00:31:20 – 00:01:04:11
Steven Schauer
By transitioning from game development to pioneering digital fashion, Yemi has seamlessly blended creativity with technology to redefine the fashion landscape. We’ll dive into how Yemi discovered the potential of virtual environments in 3D simulation for fashion design, and how she’s been challenging the fast fashion model with a strong emphasis on sustainability. Yemi will also share her insights on how Gen Z is leading the charge, with conscious consumerism and holding brands accountable.

00:01:04:13 – 00:01:33:02
Steven Schauer
Emmy’s experiences with family, cultural influences, and the journey from game development to fashion are filled with lessons on the importance of staying open minded, asking the right questions and collaborate for positive change. Her story highlights the importance of equality, equity and the power of technology to bring people together for a more inclusive world. Let me tell you just a bit more about Yemi Scott and then we’ll jump into the interview.

00:01:33:04 – 00:02:11:06
Steven Schauer
Yemi is passionate about tech and she has a background in digital media and game development. Her entrepreneurial spirit and visionary mindset have propelled her to trailblazer in the captivating world of phygital fashion. This unique approach seamlessly combines the physical and digital realms. Hence the term phygital fashion, and this is revolutionizing the way fashion is experienced. As the founder of Quirky Couture Inc. and Ecology Limited, Yemi has ventured into the emerging Web3 space, establishing herself as a pioneer with an unwavering passion for immersive technology.

00:02:11:11 – 00:02:37:03
Steven Schauer
She dedicates herself to helping businesses harness the power of cutting edge AI and XR technologies, aiming to optimize processes and make significant strides towards achieving low carbon admissions. Look, if you’re like me and all of those tech words and acronyms don’t make any sense, you’re going to want to stick around and listen to this interview, because I learned a lot, and I’m sure you will too.

00:02:37:05 – 00:02:48:05
Steven Schauer
So let’s dive into this conversation with the incredible Yemi Scott here on Story Sustain Us, where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

00:02:48:05 – 00:02:54:09
Steven Schauer
Well. Hello, Yemi. Welcome to Story Sustain Us. Thank you so much for joining me. How are you today?

00:02:54:13 – 00:02:57:18
Yemi Scott
I am doing very well. Thank you. Stephen. And you.

00:02:57:20 – 00:03:05:08
Steven Schauer
I’m doing well also. It’s it’s, early morning for me here in Seattle and I think, later afternoon for.

00:03:05:08 – 00:03:06:00
Speaker 3
You and.

00:03:06:00 – 00:03:09:15
Yemi Scott
Austin in here for. Yeah, ten, to be exact.

00:03:09:17 – 00:03:13:19
Steven Schauer
And you are in Aberdeen, so everybody knows. Is that right?

00:03:13:21 – 00:03:16:01
Yemi Scott
Yes, I am, I’m in Scotland.

00:03:16:03 – 00:03:26:19
Steven Schauer
Fantastic. Well, your story, though takes you, I think, around the world, and I’m looking forward to to hear in more of the adventures you’ve had before you got to Aberdeen. And I can’t wait.

00:03:26:19 – 00:03:28:05
Speaker 3
To tell you. Yeah.

00:03:28:10 – 00:03:51:21
Steven Schauer
And I, you know, I just read your, you know, your bio and introduced you and, I also have to point out when we get to your current profession, I’m sure there’s some words you’re going to have to help me understand in the audience. Understand the the physical and digital, the fidgeted, the general, the phygital, digital fashion. See, I already need your already need education.

00:03:51:21 – 00:03:52:18
Yemi Scott
Among the students.

00:03:52:20 – 00:03:53:22
Speaker 3
Yes, yes.

00:03:53:22 – 00:04:14:02
Steven Schauer
So so that and, you know, Web3 and XR technologies are some terms I just use that I’m going to need you to tell me about later, but definitely, before we get there, why don’t you tell everybody about you? Like, what’s your story? Where were you born? How did you eventually, you know, travel around the world and then up in Aberdeen.

00:04:14:02 – 00:04:16:07
Steven Schauer
What? What’s your story?

00:04:16:09 – 00:04:37:03
Yemi Scott
Oh, my story. Okay, so first, yes, my name is Yemi Scott. I, Nigerian by birth, from the Yoruba tribe. It just so happens that we do have a couple of, families that have English names because of the colonization and then the. So. Yes. So the so when people hear my concern and they’re like, I’ll show you, I might remind you.

00:04:37:03 – 00:05:10:01
Yemi Scott
And I’m like, yeah, yeah. Yes, I am Nigerian, I’m Yoruba I so for me, what I see my journey, how it all started. I will go into the tech one, but just my migrating and moving around. I think as a child I always kind of also knew that I liked to move like I, I was I was literally always very, you know, not never comfortable staying in one place for too long, you know, always wanting to go on adventures.

00:05:10:06 – 00:05:11:23
Yemi Scott
The more, the riskier the better.

00:05:12:04 – 00:05:14:05
Speaker 3
You know?

00:05:14:07 – 00:05:41:11
Yemi Scott
So, yeah. So, fast forward to 2009 or was it mainly 1112? Yes, at least 12 months for me and 12 my, husband. Then he was with shell. okay. We got, an exploration, contract to go to Brunei, for, for four years. And so I was just about to have our first child, then I was pregnant.

00:05:41:13 – 00:06:15:15
Yemi Scott
then, that move came. I literally landed in Brunei with a fresh new baby. and there’s a whole new culture. Completely different. Sure. and that, for me, was thankfully wasn’t much of a culture shock because we were on the camp. So we had diverse cultures, different communities. It was an expert community. I was volunteering with the outpost, for show, welcoming new experts, families in, settling them in, taking them around town and all that kind of stuff.

00:06:15:17 – 00:06:34:17
Yemi Scott
I instantly realized that this was my first exploration. isn’t you realize once I go in, I have to quickly shoot my mindset. You know, I tell myself that, well, this is an opportunity. You can’t complain about the things that you would like to have the best you can. The most you can do is make the best of this right now.

00:06:34:17 – 00:06:56:06
Yemi Scott
So I go inside volunteering and meeting people. So by the time we were done, we ended up spending five years, and in that five years, there was a lot of movement. Yeah. You know, all right, close your eyes and just throw that into the center of the southeast Asian map. Like, where are we going tonight? So there was a lot of travel in between that period.

00:06:56:12 – 00:07:23:10
Yemi Scott
Did Cambodia, did Malaysia, different aspects of, Sarawak? did, the U.S. a couple of times as well? did, of course, I don’t know the time, but I wasn’t really smitten with London, to be honest. I had done London back in 2016 or 2009, and I wasn’t impressed, you know. So so when when we left Brunei after five years, we had to go back home to Nigeria.

00:07:23:12 – 00:07:31:16
Yemi Scott
I in that moment, I just felt like I’ve had my second child. I wanted to be back home. I wanted my kids to learn the culture, be more.

00:07:31:16 – 00:07:32:05
Speaker 3
Sure, sure.

00:07:32:06 – 00:07:50:02
Yemi Scott
Getting to that. Also get some, meet their cousins and their grandparents. So for me, it was let’s just go back home. So five years in Brunei was all I needed. It was an amazing experience, but I was ready to go home, went back home. The plan was to be there for two years and then pick up our bags again and migrate.

00:07:50:04 – 00:08:10:02
Yemi Scott
Well, you know what? The universe has plans for us. And it was maybe five years ago in Nigeria, but it was such an amazing time to be home for me, for my sisters to be integrated into my children’s lives. And then it was supposed to be Canada. That was that was the plan. You know, my husband then had not left shell.

00:08:10:08 – 00:08:27:03
Yemi Scott
I was not looking to pursue his career in, renewable energy as opposed to fossil fuel because he was a geophysicist. So he was like, I want to change my career. I want to do something new. So he had applied to, university in Quebec. But then the war broke out. They were bringing in, a lot of refugees.

00:08:27:03 – 00:08:47:12
Yemi Scott
So a lot of visa processes got delayed. And then out of the blues, I think between October 2021 into December, Aberdeen became came on our, you know, radar. And they’re like oh okay. Aberdeen or Stirling you know like oh well let’s do Aberdeen. We do have family here. I’m like well.

00:08:47:14 – 00:08:48:05
Speaker 3
That.

00:08:48:07 – 00:09:08:16
Yemi Scott
Yeah that’s a good choice. And it was a good choice because it was instant love at first sight for me. So Aberdeen I’d had so many gloomy dairy. Tales of Aberdeen is so boring. It’s a gray. It’s always where it’s a it’s so cold and it’s. I can’t believe that expectation. I mean I’m like, what is.

00:09:08:16 – 00:09:10:02
Speaker 3
Sparkly?

00:09:10:04 – 00:09:20:14
Yemi Scott
Yeah it’s right, it’s sparkly. It’s beautiful. There’s culture. So yes. Hence my new, I’m home now in Scotland and I’ve been here since 2010.

00:09:20:14 – 00:09:37:10
Steven Schauer
It’s a nice, nice I had in Seattle when my wife and I, we moved here a couple of years ago and we heard similar stories. It’s so gray and gloomy and rainy. But no, we we love it. It’s so it’s beautiful. There’s, there’s just because it’s so wet, there’s so much green and there’s so much. Yeah, it’s. Yeah.

00:09:37:10 – 00:09:58:12
Steven Schauer
It’s just such a beautiful place. So let me take you back a little bit in. In time. Yeah. I mean so your, your family, you have siblings, you know what was what was life like for you growing up? You said you were a risk taker an adventure or some child. What are some stories? If you don’t mind sharing some of the adventures you got into as as a youngster?

00:09:58:14 – 00:10:01:18
Yemi Scott
Well, this is I was like, if you repeat them, you all know what’s going to happen.

00:10:01:20 – 00:10:02:16
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00:10:02:18 – 00:10:04:06
Steven Schauer
The safe stories you can tell.

00:10:04:12 – 00:10:05:18
Speaker 3
And.

00:10:05:20 – 00:10:20:19
Yemi Scott
Yes, as it’s called, I was I happened to be the last of three girls. I have two oldest siblings. Sisters. And this. It doesn’t happen that I. I was the terror within the.

00:10:20:21 – 00:10:21:01
Speaker 3
Well.

00:10:21:01 – 00:10:24:06
Yemi Scott
Of the last. I was the one that would get away with murder.

00:10:24:08 – 00:10:25:03
Speaker 3
you know.

00:10:25:05 – 00:10:31:08
Yemi Scott
Something asked of approval. They were like, yeah, me. Go. Go talk to the folks.

00:10:31:10 – 00:10:33:01
Speaker 3
Yeah. you know, they.

00:10:33:01 – 00:11:01:12
Yemi Scott
Listen to you anyways and everything. but I was also very, very outspoken as a child. I would always speak my mind in a lot of situations. And coming from an African culture where we all know that it’s normal for children to be seen and not heard. Boom. Strangely, my parents never closed that with me. They allowed me to express myself to the fullest, even two points when they are mortified by what I’ve said and how to apologize sometimes.

00:11:01:12 – 00:11:22:04
Yemi Scott
Yeah, like for a slow with like who does a child? You know, I have toys. as when I was like, three years old, you know, having guests come into the house and I just noticed. But still, I guess he always seems like. Right when we’re having, tea, you know, we’re having dinner. So a day he shows up, and he was really well-dressed.

00:11:22:04 – 00:11:32:09
Yemi Scott
I’m like, oh, I must have been three. I’m like, oh, is it your birthday? He said, no. I said, oh, interesting. I said, how is it possible that you keep up here only when we’re about to eat?

00:11:32:11 – 00:11:38:05
Speaker 3
Yes, that’s a fair question. That’s how my parents are.

00:11:38:05 – 00:11:39:16
Yemi Scott
Oh my goodness.

00:11:39:17 – 00:11:41:03
Speaker 3
The smell has been.

00:11:41:05 – 00:11:50:17
Yemi Scott
You know, I mean was like no thank you. That was the last time I had you showed up. I had such times a gave the.

00:11:50:19 – 00:11:51:20
Speaker 3
Guests. Wonderful.

00:11:51:21 – 00:12:09:13
Yemi Scott
Also my my immediate older sister. We used to have this thing we used to do. She used to tell me stories. so she’ll make up stories for me. We used to read a lot of blanks in books. so eventually she would tell me, oh, you know what? I’m going to come up with a story. And because she gave me more detail than the than the book.

00:12:09:18 – 00:12:30:04
Yemi Scott
So I will ask, you know, it was real time storytelling for me. It was telling as early as I am that so what was a doll wearing? So she would give me full explanation. Why wasn’t there something at, oh, level? Hey, so the into that story, and then my dad got a computer. What? We were like, I was seven and she was nine.

00:12:30:06 – 00:12:38:15
Yemi Scott
The first computer that we had then was back in 1990s, and he’s a civil engineer, so he was using it for his AutoCAD, project.

00:12:38:17 – 00:12:39:05
Speaker 3
Sure, sure.

00:12:39:05 – 00:13:03:18
Yemi Scott
Well, whenever he was done, he’d be like, oh, you know, he knew that we’d like to explore an idea. You can have a system and play around with it. So was I playing game games like where in the world is Communist Django? Prince of Persia. So we’re learning how to what? Mixing chemicals, potions. We have to read the whole two volumes of the encyclopedia back to back by then, because there were so many questions within the window.

00:13:03:18 – 00:13:16:14
Yemi Scott
What is come in so dangerous? So we’re learning places. We are learning things. what velocity was? What was speed? We understood the concept of physics because we, wrote and put it our own game.

00:13:16:16 – 00:13:17:12
Speaker 3
Right.

00:13:17:14 – 00:13:30:01
Yemi Scott
glory love was it was the two gorillas on the opposite side of the screen, throwing bananas at each other. And they have to aim so that they can blow off the other gorilla. So that was how it was.

00:13:30:03 – 00:13:32:17
Steven Schauer
How old were you when you coded your first game?

00:13:32:19 – 00:13:35:02
Yemi Scott
That I was seven years old.

00:13:35:04 – 00:13:38:18
Steven Schauer
Seven. That’s fantastic.

00:13:38:20 – 00:13:41:15
Yemi Scott
I was, when I knew touching the computer, I would.

00:13:41:15 – 00:13:42:13
Speaker 3
Never hooked.

00:13:42:15 – 00:14:02:07
Yemi Scott
Up with myself. I was I was very proficient in doing slides, proper animated slides. By the time I was ten years old. nice. My dad used to use his, his team then. Oh, look at you. She’s only you can teach you also useful.

00:14:02:09 – 00:14:21:21
Yemi Scott
have not played games all night. I would, I would literally just sit on the computers. I knew at that age that I never wanted to do anything that was not related to computers. And again, of course, I also loved my goals. Yeah, I had so many of them. I would make clothes for them. I’ll make hats. at some point.

00:14:21:21 – 00:14:40:04
Yemi Scott
My mom means I have to count our exercise books. Back then when we used to have exercise books given in school and, you know, you had the 60 leaves and the 40 leaves and 30 leaves, so you literally had to count them leaf by leaves to make sure we hadn’t ripped out pages to make paper dolls, you know, come up with some ridiculous stuff.

00:14:40:04 – 00:14:53:12
Yemi Scott
Her magazines were like, it was free game for us. We will cut out stuff on magazines. We’ll stick them on our dolls. And she was like, you need to stop putting my things. when sex, when you didn’t get into too much.

00:14:53:12 – 00:14:54:18
Steven Schauer
Trouble, too much trouble.

00:14:54:18 – 00:14:56:20
Speaker 3
Right.

00:14:56:22 – 00:15:17:14
Steven Schauer
So I could see where your passion for computers and passion for fashion started. You know, at such a young age, it’s. Thank you for for sharing that with me. That really helped me see where it started for you and and where where this journey really began. And so did you as you progressed through your childhood and into teen years.

00:15:17:14 – 00:15:27:18
Steven Schauer
And, did you, you know, ever progression to formal education into programing or was it all self-taught? I mean, how you how did you get to to where you are?

00:15:27:20 – 00:15:48:17
Yemi Scott
Interestingly, I when my, when I, when I went into senior secondary school, they call them S1 here at the the primary school. And when you get to those mid mid senior school, you are allowed to pick your subjects and focus on in in the particular area. So we had the arts, we had the sciences and then we had the commercial class.

00:15:48:19 – 00:15:49:08
Yemi Scott
I was there.

00:15:49:08 – 00:15:52:03
Steven Schauer
Like when you were a teenager. Yes, as a teenager.

00:15:52:03 – 00:16:15:03
Yemi Scott
So yeah, between 1213 and 14. So when that time came, I wanted to do sciences. I really wanted to be a surgeon. Like, I felt like I could handle some brain surgery. I’d been reading a couple of a books, like really old books from the 80s, you know, where they write in the very old English and learning about some kind of science.

00:16:15:03 – 00:16:36:07
Yemi Scott
So I wasn’t like always with people on that, you know? But then I figured I had to do physics, I had to do technical drawing. I’m like, okay, that’s not going to happen. I wasn’t an option. I couldn’t pick arts for obvious reasons. You know, African parents do not classify ads as a formal study. You know that.

00:16:36:07 – 00:16:37:05
Speaker 3
Profession?

00:16:37:07 – 00:16:42:00
Yemi Scott
It’s a profession. Yeah, that is serious. And mostly it’s like, well, like, this is what I do.

00:16:42:02 – 00:16:47:12
Steven Schauer
So if you’re a civil engineer, father was pushing you or encouraging 1 in 1 direction or another.

00:16:47:12 – 00:17:07:03
Yemi Scott
Oh, funny thing is that he never he was he even he was. So he, he he was quite, very supportive of what am, I suppose I wanted to do. I used to love dancing as well. So he, he used to tell me that, oh, if I, if I had had the money, I would of taking you abroad, you know, go to a ballet school or something like that.

00:17:07:06 – 00:17:28:23
Yemi Scott
So my parents were very open that they their likes to actually explore what I wanted to do, and they supported us really great. And we even used to like draw little miniature comic books. Myself and my sister, they used to tell me stories. We got up to a lot of stuff. We had a radio station that we would record all the action, the door slamming.

00:17:29:03 – 00:17:50:03
Yemi Scott
That was the whole production behind that nice. So we explored a lot and he saw it and he was like, oh, I will help you publish your books. So he was always, always encouraging us to do whatever you want to do. If you are happy with it, then I’m fully supportive of that. So he never pushed anything, but I just knew that I never wanted to have a 9 to 5 job.

00:17:50:04 – 00:18:11:11
Yemi Scott
I did not want to work behind a desk. I wanted to have a job that allowed me to be outside doing stuff, interacting with people and definitely being creative. So the commercial class with me was the only other option. I just figured, okay, if I do commercials, it’s not arts and sciences, but I still get, you know, it’s almost like a nice round of balance.

00:18:11:15 – 00:18:21:00
Yemi Scott
And that’s what I did too. I had no intention of doing anything in the commercial classes. but when it was time for uni, I enrolled in mass communication as my undergrad.

00:18:21:01 – 00:18:22:05
Speaker 3
Okay, okay, so.

00:18:22:08 – 00:18:35:17
Yemi Scott
Mass communication majored in copywriting and advertising. finished university, didn’t get to have a career in that field. I immediately jumped into, TV production.

00:18:35:18 – 00:18:36:10
Speaker 3
Okay.

00:18:36:12 – 00:19:02:16
Yemi Scott
But then so I was I was trained from the ground up. I was behind the cameras in front of the camera at some point, presenting, produce, doing, travelog shows, and all that kind of stuff scripted. And it was literally all hands on deck. We did everything. Yeah, the camera, camera, plus the lighting technician, makeup artist, wardrobe consultants, set designer.

00:19:02:18 – 00:19:18:09
Yemi Scott
We did it all this, it was it was while I was doing that. And then there was an opportunity to now be in front of the camera. And I did that for a while, but I just realized that I don’t like to be the camera. I like to be behind. I want to be the mind behind things.

00:19:18:09 – 00:19:36:01
Yemi Scott
I want people to do that. I during the course of doing this, I did went to awards for like the most creative editor and like the fastest rate rise in a video editor within the organization then. So I think for me it was like, okay, at least you are doing what you like to do in my life.

00:19:36:01 – 00:19:59:13
Yemi Scott
Yeah, exactly. That thing that you wanted for at least and, and in something and it was still related to mass communication. So it was a win win for me in that moment. And then I started dabbling into 3D animation as well, designing my title animation for my recordings, and so that I could have a unique, presentation. How I did my my show was very unique, some my own style of editing.

00:19:59:15 – 00:20:00:22
Yemi Scott
and yeah.

00:20:01:03 – 00:20:03:19
Steven Schauer
And where was it? Where were you producing the show?

00:20:03:20 – 00:20:05:19
Speaker 3
Where what were you working for?

00:20:05:21 – 00:20:12:17
Yemi Scott
It was. Okay. Well, the ization had, it was a religious organization.

00:20:12:23 – 00:20:13:17
Speaker 3
Okay. Yeah.

00:20:13:19 – 00:20:37:05
Yemi Scott
I just think that. So it had branches, spread across different parts of the world. So the type of work, most of what we’re doing was, in, in South Africa because they had, network station. So everything was hand in, let’s programs with certain, channel within that network station. but ours was more into like the travel.

00:20:37:07 – 00:20:49:13
Yemi Scott
So we got to travel within country and outside the African continent as well. And for us, we were just looking for opportunities to meet people and just literally like, what you do just interview there like.

00:20:49:15 – 00:20:51:00
Speaker 3
Yeah, no. Yeah. Beautiful.

00:20:51:00 – 00:20:59:17
Yemi Scott
What are you doing? And all that kind of stuff. But then I get I got tired I guess, of constantly having to prepare for the camera. It takes a toll on you.

00:20:59:17 – 00:21:20:02
Steven Schauer
Does. Yeah. These shows take a lot of effort behind the scenes to create. I can understand that and appreciate that. It’s a lot of work. People don’t see that work. They just see the final product. They don’t see everything that went into making that final product. So I can appreciate that the energy it takes to put into producing something that that is winning awards and something that you’re very proud of.

00:21:20:02 – 00:21:21:15
Steven Schauer
So I get it.

00:21:21:16 – 00:21:24:21
Speaker 3
Thank. Yeah. You.

00:21:24:23 – 00:21:28:19
Yemi Scott
And what are the questions to ask? I think I might have skipped something now.

00:21:28:19 – 00:21:31:17
Steven Schauer
I think you got it. Yeah. I asked you where you were working at the time and.

00:21:31:21 – 00:21:55:18
Yemi Scott
Yes, I was working. I was working, at this, TV, station owned by the church. So yes, it was, it was, it was a massive organized, like I said. So I had a team of sometimes five, six, ten, we were going to have to record, like, proper, crusades where you had like, ten thousands of people in a stadium setting.

00:21:55:18 – 00:22:03:00
Yemi Scott
You were doing like, you were either being part of the security detail, you know, controlling the crowd.

00:22:03:00 – 00:22:03:18
Speaker 3
Sure.

00:22:03:20 – 00:22:24:14
Yemi Scott
Doing some form of marketing for church publications. And so I was literally doing everything. So that was what it was. It was fun while it lasted again, like, I’ve come to realize, I remember that my husband would be like, you have to choose one thing you can be, you know, you can do this, you can do that, you can do all that.

00:22:24:14 – 00:22:27:00
Yemi Scott
I mean, all that. Well, like what? Why not?

00:22:27:02 – 00:22:27:18
Speaker 3
Why not? Yeah.

00:22:27:18 – 00:22:48:22
Yemi Scott
Why not? If I, if I like to do this thing, then I have the capacity to do all of these things without letting anything slide behind. And why not? So for me was always, why not? I will do it if I’m interested or if it excites me enough to want to do, I will do it. And during that period, of course, also came the the self-learning.

00:22:49:00 – 00:23:09:15
Yemi Scott
I had to teach myself soft ways because I was like, ooh, I like this animation. If I say something a little, how can I do that? So go out, download different alters, I’ll learn them. I’ll exploit, and then I get feedback that he has good, and I keep pushing on until I have my own thing. And yeah, so for me it was always the fun of the tech behind all of that.

00:23:09:15 – 00:23:13:09
Yemi Scott
Like, I was working with technology. That was all that mattered to me.

00:23:13:11 – 00:23:37:04
Steven Schauer
Yeah, well, I gather you know what I’m imagining from your what you’ve shared so far. You’ve got this spirit and energy about you. That part of the joy of life is, is learning these new things and pushing yourself and experiencing and growing personally. And that’s what I’m picking up from you, I think. And that’s such a, a wonderful way to live, that you’re always expanding your mind and always growing.

00:23:37:04 – 00:23:39:15
Steven Schauer
And I can appreciate that very much.

00:23:39:17 – 00:23:40:04
Yemi Scott
Thank you.

00:23:40:04 – 00:23:42:20
Speaker 3
Stephen. Yeah, yeah.

00:23:42:22 – 00:24:05:05
Steven Schauer
So so you transition a little bit, I guess. How did you get into, kind of the world that you’re in now where you’re, you’re matching your, your digital game background and game development background and then eventually, you know, I think we’ll transition into how do that connects to fashion. So so tell me a little bit about that.

00:24:05:07 – 00:24:11:16
Steven Schauer
You know, transition in life as, as you’re getting eventually here towards Aberdeen again.

00:24:11:18 – 00:24:14:16
Yemi Scott
the transition I think I skipped a bit, but I’ll quickly touch on it.

00:24:14:16 – 00:24:16:13
Speaker 3
So why a place Brunei.

00:24:16:15 – 00:24:35:22
Yemi Scott
Yeah. Yeah. Because I was going in as an accompanying spouse. You were not allowed to work. Oh, you were allowed to they would sponsor your for the studies if you wanted to go into it masters or anything. So I had to do my masters in that moment. So I did my master’s in, digital Media with the University of Newcastle, Australia.

00:24:36:00 – 00:24:57:11
Yemi Scott
It was it was a virtual it was an online course, but there was a part in that course that we needed to log into a virtual environment. And it was the course that was on game design. So the lecture that all of that guys over next lecture I need you guys to hop into and create an avatar and show up in this world.

00:24:57:11 – 00:25:12:03
Yemi Scott
I’m like, I have never heard of this one before. It was called Second Life. I’ve always been a gamer. Like I said, I play games. My favorite title is, Grand Theft Auto. You know, I.

00:25:12:05 – 00:25:14:04
Yemi Scott
That’s a fun thing. Well.

00:25:14:06 – 00:25:18:09
Speaker 3
You are a hardcore. Yeah, I hey, how about.

00:25:18:09 – 00:25:37:04
Yemi Scott
This? This this place? No, I’m not your name. You know, I’m signing in and fitting my avatar in the process of creating avatar for second Life, I wanted to I wanted my avatar to be an exact representation of who I am. Person. I wasn’t planning to go into the dragon.

00:25:37:04 – 00:25:37:19
Speaker 3
No. Yeah.

00:25:37:23 – 00:25:58:11
Yemi Scott
Oh, like a like a lizard. if I wanted to go in as myself. And what I realized was that the, selection of, clothes to pick from the digital clothes, it wasn’t a very large selection of African prints and all of that. I wanted Queen Mary, but I didn’t have real. They didn’t have all the things I like.

00:25:58:11 – 00:26:27:09
Yemi Scott
So I’m like, it will be nice to design for this face. And that was back in 2015. fossil Stone 16. I finished my masters and I was browsing. You know how they say Big Brother is always listening? Sure. Browsing on Google and suddenly this software pops up on my feed called Marvelous Designer. And I’m seeing what they were doing using, 3D simulation for fashion.

00:26:27:11 – 00:26:27:19
Yemi Scott
I’m like.

00:26:27:19 – 00:26:28:13
Speaker 3
Wow.

00:26:28:15 – 00:26:52:19
Yemi Scott
This is this is incredible. And I need to go and download this software learning myself. So I’m downloading the substance. I was 16, logging in, so excited I get it. 30 days free trial and I open it and I see patterns, like actual dress patterns, like I need to understand bodies drafting in. And I had no idea, you know, I’m like, okay, okay, I see what the problem is here.

00:26:52:21 – 00:27:03:15
Yemi Scott
So I close down the software and I can’t enroll with a proper seamstress. So I go in and actually started to learn how to make a real world seamstress.

00:27:03:15 – 00:27:04:12
Steven Schauer
Not virtual world.

00:27:04:12 – 00:27:05:15
Speaker 3
No, not a virtual. Yeah.

00:27:05:18 – 00:27:16:11
Steven Schauer
All right. So yeah, just once you’re you’re learning the real world skills so you can, eventually make the virtual world match the real world.

00:27:16:12 – 00:27:19:04
Speaker 3
Exactly. Right. Right, right. Yeah, yeah.

00:27:19:06 – 00:27:38:22
Yemi Scott
If I want to do this, then I’m going to do well. I need basic knowledge that I don’t have. Yeah. Yeah. Course. So I went in and today teaching me I, I, I think I supposed to do three months, but I think I did maybe two and a half, no, one one month and a few weeks because I would go home and I would go on YouTube based on what, whatever actually has taught me.

00:27:38:22 – 00:27:56:17
Yemi Scott
I was for that long by my learning whatever sure did something that she did not give me to do and then take you back to class. Just that I could get her feedback. I knew what I was on the right track, and if I hit oh good already. Good idea. As soon as I got good already, that was done for me and the class.

00:27:56:19 – 00:28:18:20
Yemi Scott
I went back into the software. Now I have knowledge I needed to be able to create in that software. So I started to create and I started to research. And the more I research into this, all through 2016 into 2018, I was like, I was seeing so many potentials with the technology. I was seeing the routes to sustainability.

00:28:19:01 – 00:28:36:23
Yemi Scott
I was seeing the routes trying to sort of finally, shining light into the creative indigenous communities that have, you know, kept the craft for so long. I was seeing how I could tie this into a virtual that of my own, brand, my own fashion brand. But it was.

00:28:37:01 – 00:28:37:23
Steven Schauer
Exciting.

00:28:38:01 – 00:29:03:19
Yemi Scott
A Phygital brand. And so the Phygital is the physical and that digital component that will phygital means you have it physical and a digital component. So I would send designs to my clients, using like augmented reality or I’ll send them a video of the simulated, design so they can see how the fabric moves. and they can see how we will flow, how great.

00:29:03:20 – 00:29:28:04
Yemi Scott
And so they would give me that feedback then I oh, can I get this news that way. So for me it was slowing down fashion. Yeah. Prior to even starting with I think when I started exploring with the two was when I stopped shopping, I literally just, I, I stopped going in so fast fashion, any kind of normally you go on holidays, you’re constantly looking for the, you know, the outlet malls.

00:29:28:06 – 00:29:53:14
Yemi Scott
Yeah, yeah. He wants to shop. You want to do that? Well I in that software I it completely changed my, the way I consume fashion. I rather thrift before I buy anything new I would upcycle, I would recycle what I had. So for me are like, okay, if this is the pathway that you would take in, then you can also start to recreate that and extend it into the the into the larger public.

00:29:53:18 – 00:30:11:07
Yemi Scott
Of course, I didn’t understand what I was doing with the digital aspects. my clients, all they knew was that I was creating these pieces. So I was hand making each piece that was ordered by myself. it was just the one the printer business. And then Covid came.

00:30:13:05 – 00:30:44:15
Yemi Scott
So we came. Yeah. Covid was it was for me. I thought that I it was essential to helping me to pivot at the time, I needed to pivot the business into where it should be going, because by the time I started the brand in 2018, I had hemorrhaged. I wasn’t making any money because I only I was just charging like, I will charge for regular, you know, seamstress, you know, because I wanted people to, be open to the idea.

00:30:44:15 – 00:31:15:18
Yemi Scott
So for me, it was not profit. First it was, how do I make them aware she had knowledge that this is an option. and then Covid came. I had to check my account. I had to go do some tax, you know, reconciliations. And she was like, oh, it’s as if I had left the intents and initial purpose of why I started, what I started to do, and the reason why I said I wanted to do what I wanted to do back in 2015, which was really the tech to drive sustainability.

00:31:15:18 – 00:31:37:04
Yemi Scott
So I had to completely restrategize my whole business plan, and I just went off the physical and just focused on the digital aspect. I started to build on that as I to find my community, because back then I was just in Nigeria. There was I talk about what I did. People was glass glazed. Look, you know, they’re like, you say you.

00:31:37:04 – 00:31:38:14
Yemi Scott
So for who I gave.

00:31:38:16 – 00:31:40:05
Speaker 3
Yes.

00:31:40:07 – 00:31:42:13
Yemi Scott
No human beings. I’m like, no.

00:31:42:14 – 00:31:43:14
Speaker 3
Not yeah.

00:31:43:16 – 00:31:45:18
Yemi Scott
They couldn’t wrap their heads around it.

00:31:45:20 – 00:32:19:03
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Let me, let me tell you in a term you used a little while ago, just in case there’s folks listening or watching who might not have picked up on on the term. But you’d mentioned fast fashion and that in, in the realm of sustainability, that term is used for, you know, as, as you mentioned, Amy, I think you can correct me if you think differently, but, you know, how we typically, you know, traditionally over the last several decades have have viewed fashion where folks go to the mall, like you said, or, or now order online because you can get things, but, you know, things.

00:32:19:03 – 00:32:44:13
Steven Schauer
It’s it’s the physical clothes that we wear, but it’s the fashion industry kind of telling us to be in, to be cool, to be, you know, fashionable. And we always have to buy the next new thing every new season. We have to get something different and you know what? What folks might not recognize is the fashion industry is a very heavy, resource, intense industry.

00:32:44:15 – 00:33:09:00
Steven Schauer
because of this business model of always, you know, forcing the consumer, if you will, through advertising to get the next new thing. Yeah. and the consequences of that, particularly for, you know, for us, maybe in the West who don’t want to, you know, think about where our clothes come from or think about the consequences, is that, you know, we don’t think about where those clothes are made, you know, and in Bangladesh or wherever.

00:33:09:00 – 00:33:31:20
Steven Schauer
And there’s all kinds of environmental harms and, and problems happening in these places where our clothes are, are made and know there’s this constant demand for the next new thing, next new thing, next new thing. So that fast fashion is really not sustainable. It’s not really what is, you know, the, the way the world should be functioning as far as how we clothe ourselves.

00:33:31:20 – 00:33:55:17
Steven Schauer
So, so I really appreciate that you, you picked up on that, and that’s something that we, we need folks like you to start changing the way we do business around fashion, because it is such a resource. and pollutant heavy, industry that we just don’t think about. So did I, did I capture all that? Right, as far as fast fashion from from your perspective.

00:33:55:17 – 00:34:00:15
Steven Schauer
So folks understand this sustainable significance of what you’re what you’re doing.

00:34:00:17 – 00:34:26:03
Yemi Scott
Indeed. You did capture perfectly, Steve. If in fact, the fashion industry, the second largest pollutant industry, second to the aviation industry, you know, when because we don’t think about it that deeply. When you think about year, like if the aviation industry is the first and fashion is the second, you must. How much are we really, really, you know, what is the damage that is really being done, right?

00:34:26:04 – 00:34:51:03
Yemi Scott
You know, I, I, I’m from Nigeria. I see the how fast fashion has completely destroyed our own landscape with a landfilling of, you know, a second hand clothes being dumped on our, in our waters, on our shores. I and I know that this this I’m not just speaking for Africa. I can I think I can extend this into Asia and other parts of Asia.

00:34:51:03 – 00:35:10:05
Yemi Scott
Well, this question, like, did damage the damage that this is doing is, is so significant. And the thing about fashion is you I mean, you have to interact with fashion. It doesn’t matter whether you’re fashionable. It doesn’t matter whether you’re trendy. I don’t that I did not show up on this for this podcast naked. You know, I.

00:35:10:10 – 00:35:12:05
Speaker 3
We all we all got to wear clothes. Right.

00:35:12:07 – 00:35:38:18
Yemi Scott
Exactly. So everybody is constantly interacting with fashion one way or the other. And fashion is such that nature provides us with a lot of the materials that we use to create this. You know, these garments, of course, because nature Canvas meets humanity’s over consumerism. Right? Then there has been the introduction of this, pseudo materials, the plastic fiber ones, you know, that is damaging to the earth, the skin.

00:35:38:18 – 00:36:12:06
Yemi Scott
It does not degenerate. It doesn’t decompose. There is no circularity planned into the whole fashion design. Right? You know, the garment production people are just producing. And then again, you look from the other angle of the fast fashion and you’re like, well, there’s been a major economic decline when it comes to financial, you know, the, the financial, the economic stability generally globally, like people are literally struggling to feed themselves, keep their homes warm, you know, how do you tell these people that, oh, you should be sustainable or buy right, right.

00:36:12:06 – 00:36:12:17
Speaker 3
You know.

00:36:12:20 – 00:36:18:21
Yemi Scott
They’re like, what are you talking about? Like they don’t have money. I’m not going to pay you $150.

00:36:18:23 – 00:36:21:10
Steven Schauer
Premium prices for sustainability.

00:36:21:12 – 00:36:25:16
Yemi Scott
Exactly this way. They’re not they’re not thinking in that line. They’re just thinking of survival.

00:36:25:18 – 00:36:26:05
Speaker 3
Right.

00:36:26:06 – 00:36:57:08
Yemi Scott
The quickest, the cheapest. You know, you can’t blame people in the same way. So hence the technology, you know, how can we use that to level level the playing field for anybody? Everybody. And the joy for me is that this generation, the Gen Z, I love them, I love the generation Z. They I’ve been mom, you know that I they’re phenomenal when when they are driven in the right direction.

00:36:57:08 – 00:36:58:13
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Tell me more. Tell me what?

00:36:58:14 – 00:37:00:07
Speaker 3
Why are they okay? Yes.

00:37:00:10 – 00:37:01:05
Yemi Scott
Please.

00:37:01:07 – 00:37:04:01
Steven Schauer
Yes. Please tell me why you love them. Why are they driven?

00:37:04:07 – 00:37:08:09
Yemi Scott
Why did you say I’m a millennial? So I, I, I, I definitely know Gen Z.

00:37:08:11 – 00:37:08:22
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:37:09:00 – 00:37:12:07
Steven Schauer
I’m, I, I’m an Xers so I’m even older.

00:37:12:09 – 00:37:14:11
Yemi Scott
Oh, completely.

00:37:14:13 – 00:37:16:01
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:37:16:03 – 00:37:40:11
Yemi Scott
Oh my goodness. Oh yeah. So the generation Z for me coming in as a millennial you know we saw the good eye. We saw the bad. We knew when there was new technology and then we came in when technology’s always seen both sides of the coin. and you see this generation now that they do not have, brand attachments, you know, they’re not they don’t have that.

00:37:40:11 – 00:38:02:16
Yemi Scott
Oh, it has to be Gucci. It has to be Hermes. It’s a generation that does not care for brand names. They are very individual in this in how they want to identify themselves. You can choose to wear a plain beige hoodie and joggers, and that’s the entire look for the entire month that happened to me that, you know, they like that t shirts, they like their sneakers.

00:38:02:21 – 00:38:24:05
Yemi Scott
Street fashion for the Gen Z is like, second, he’s like breathing, you know, so that that that not that they’re not concerned with acquiring luxury, that they don’t rather actually even put their money into, an indie designer, somebody that, you know, is a smoker, you know, and they like what you do. Oh, and also like Skull and Bones.

00:38:24:11 – 00:38:42:10
Yemi Scott
Oh, I do graphics. And so a lot of them. But I love them. And do you do them t shirts. Well yes. You get a community. You started your own fashion line. So for the Gen Z I like the fact that they’re also very conscious. Yes. You know, when people when people hire them, they’re like, oh, they are not, they don’t have work ethic.

00:38:42:11 – 00:38:42:17
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:38:42:17 – 00:38:46:21
Steven Schauer
They’re they’re not working hard. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That’s always a Gen Z complaint.

00:38:46:23 – 00:39:06:07
Yemi Scott
Due to human nature, you know, be concerned about their mental health first. Right? Right. I’m just he’s just that gender is just like nope. If it if it is not helping my mental stress and this is giving me, I will leave. You know, they will not stay in a place that they feel comfortable or they feel like they are being pulled from side to side.

00:39:06:07 – 00:39:39:15
Yemi Scott
So for me, those amazing qualities, of course, we now look at the cancel culture. You know what? Where they can cancel, a legend, you know, that has been in the industry for years. And just by one thing, they completely just alienate you, you know, and there’s no coming back from it. So I like the fact that when they are channels to a cause, they can make such very massive changes on like our generation, like you are Gen X or you know what I’m talking about.

00:39:39:16 – 00:39:42:15
Yemi Scott
You know, I really kind of smile and take it. Yeah.

00:39:42:15 – 00:39:44:01
Speaker 3
You know. Yeah.

00:39:44:02 – 00:40:02:07
Yemi Scott
talk about it. You know, at work is, you know, the reward for, you know, success. That’s how we were trained, you know. So for us, when we see this generation that is so they almost seem erratic. They almost seem as if they’re not, you know, but they’re very conscious. They’re very conscious in the sense that they’re asking questions.

00:40:02:07 – 00:40:15:00
Yemi Scott
Now, where is that coming from? Doesn’t it’s only because of the generation Z. They were starting to see the amount of greenwashing that, you know, fashion, you know, industry has been tabling and giving everyone and feeding all sorts.

00:40:15:01 – 00:40:23:18
Steven Schauer
Of all industries are greenwashing, absolutely. All trying to sell us on their sustainable. When you think deeper marketing.

00:40:23:20 – 00:40:44:18
Yemi Scott
Yeah. When you strip this material down to the nitty gritty, there is material there that is still not toxic and should not be included. Of course we we for us, like I said, we just want to buy whatever is available. Who is asking questions, you know. But this generation, they will ask you and you better have answers because you will have the right answers.

00:40:44:18 – 00:40:51:23
Yemi Scott
They will cancel your brand. Yeah, that’s simple. Even Mark Zuckerberg had a taste of it. So if you.

00:40:52:01 – 00:40:52:11
Speaker 3
Say.

00:40:52:13 – 00:41:13:11
Yemi Scott
You can’t mess with this generation, they can’t. They can smell BBS from a mile off as we’ve come to them. And you are not authentic and you’re not being honest and you’re not being transparent, then they will call you to account. And if you cannot give account, I cannot answer their questions. That’s it for you, your brand. This is the generation we’re talking about, generation Alpha.

00:41:13:17 – 00:41:42:18
Yemi Scott
This is the next generation that will be the ones spending for the economy. How do we attract these guys? You know, they’re already showing signs that there are no means by names. You know, there are no means by all these things. How do you, you know, engage with them to get them excited about you as a as a business, as a product developer, whatever it is you do, you need to be able to appeal to this generation in more ways than just, you know, looking pretty.

00:41:42:20 – 00:41:50:11
Yemi Scott
They have to know that there’s there’s substance, you know, to your to your brand. And that’s why I love Gen Z. So that’s my t shirts.

00:41:51:10 – 00:42:13:12
Steven Schauer
I can I appreciate them all for the same reason. They’re really shaking things up because of everything you just said. So I don’t need to repeat it, but I agree. And it took me a little while to to get there because at first I was stuck in my mentality of like, what? What are they doing? But then everything you said about, you know, how they are questioning and how they are.

00:42:13:14 – 00:42:39:05
Steven Schauer
And, you know, I had a couple weeks ago on the show a Gen Z or I’m on deep and, you know, just lovely the energy that she brings and and you know, I just I as I’m getting older, I’m feeding off that young energy because it’s, it’s it’s inspiring. It’s and the fact that they won’t take BS like you said, they see it and they call it out and they won’t take it.

00:42:39:07 – 00:43:01:14
Steven Schauer
you know, unlike maybe my generation, like you said, we’re just supposed to just, you know, go along to get along. I really appreciate the the way they’re shaking the world up. And because the world needs to be shaken up, we need we need to do things differently. And, it’s their future, and they know that. And they’re they’re not afraid to to, you know, ask those tough questions and hold you accountable.

00:43:01:14 – 00:43:20:17
Steven Schauer
And that’s that’s what we need. We need more of that. So yeah. So yeah, me, Howard, let’s get back home to you and your business. How how are how are you doing them? How are you then making your transition? What what is it that you’re doing these days in this digital physical space that that, you know, I want to make sure we give you proper time to talk.

00:43:20:17 – 00:43:24:19
Steven Schauer
About what? What’s your business model and what are you doing?

00:43:24:21 – 00:43:25:10
Speaker 3
Okay.

00:43:25:10 – 00:43:54:09
Yemi Scott
So. Okay. So yes, indeed, I have the Phygital fashion brand that is, that exists in Nigeria is registered as a Nigerian entity and also in Canada, although the now inactive, because I’m here in Aberdeen and I can’t split myself into three. So I arrive in, in Aberdeen. Oh, by the way, I should give credit to a platform that really helped me to build and find my community.

00:43:54:11 – 00:44:15:19
Yemi Scott
Yes, that was clubhouse. I remember that when I did start my fashion thing, everything was back in Nigeria. And of course I couldn’t get the kind of interest that I needed. But a friend told me once, so have you tried clubhouse? I think I’ve had some very, very random and strange conversations within the clubhouse, but I think you might find your tribe interesting, you know, and I.

00:44:16:00 – 00:44:35:19
Yemi Scott
Yeah, yeah. I’m like, what’s this clubhouse? You know, this was just after the lockdown, and I had not had all of this activity. I’m like, okay, I’m going to go find them. So I went into clubhouse and then I started to go into spaces where you’re talking about digital fashion. I was coming to spaces with the fabric dress ads, you know, and all these big players in this in the field.

00:44:35:19 – 00:44:53:01
Yemi Scott
And I started to realize, because every time there’ll be an opportunity to come on stage and, you know, you know, ask questions and share experiences. I’m never one to have questions to ask. I always just have something to add. So I will go on stage and then I will, you know, add something. My experience, what I’ve been working on.

00:44:53:07 – 00:45:10:09
Yemi Scott
And, you know, it was always the same reaction. Oh wow. Oh, wow. And I started to build it started to build my confidence. And what is it that been able to accomplish? And as I say, oh, you know, you have you actually pioneer in the space. Like when I started to do digital fashion, it wasn’t a thing.

00:45:10:15 – 00:45:23:10
Yemi Scott
There was nothing like NFTs back then. You know, I had already created my own metaverse store back in 2019, when there was nothing like metaverse back then. I just knew I never wanted to.

00:45:23:12 – 00:45:24:22
Speaker 3
well, while, like.

00:45:25:00 – 00:45:28:11
Yemi Scott
I do have it do something for walls, I just don’t like them.

00:45:28:14 – 00:45:29:15
Speaker 3
So, yeah, I wanted.

00:45:29:15 – 00:45:51:12
Yemi Scott
To have on a virtual space where I could, you know, explore. And I did build myself one. So building all of that, working within the cookie brand, having this metaverse integrated into it. also during the lockdown, I had an opportunity to do a game development, bootcamp. and then, it was like a boot camp for 20.

00:45:51:12 – 00:46:20:10
Yemi Scott
And I ended up being, one of the top three developers that got picked to work on this project. And it was a project that was sponsored by the Templeton Foundation. And it was, to help see if, children or teenagers could be taught empathy through immersive games. And, and, we were working on that together with, yeah, the Vici lab, that is a house with the Lagos Business School.

00:46:20:12 – 00:46:39:01
Yemi Scott
So that project for me was it was almost like it was the final puzzle piece I needed from back in 2015, which was, oh, I would like to create for this space, but how do I make it more immersive? So doing the whole bootcamp was okay, okay, now I know how to create digitally. I actually know how to sew physical garments.

00:46:39:03 – 00:46:59:09
Yemi Scott
I know how to design, the 3D spaces. I know how to create my own digital avatars for my brand. So I didn’t by any models. I, because I had the background coming from, the media aspect as well. I was able to I could go into like virtual editorials. I would go into the spaces.

00:46:59:10 – 00:47:33:01
Yemi Scott
I was creating digital, movies for artists that wanted a nice, replica of themselves. but I didn’t want to do their videos in using their own, you know, regular video recording. And then and I would you, you know, do this, create an avatar that looks like me and these, my songs for my album. And I did what we wanted them, to create song things that I would experience is now coming into Aberdeen for me was like, okay, you have this, this is a new opportunity.

00:47:33:03 – 00:47:58:07
Yemi Scott
What what is lacking here? And I started to attend events. I was talking to a couple of people because of the clubhouse being out near the park or networking. I own the studio now, so I was integrating myself fully into the ecosystem. I had my ear down to the ground, I was listening, I was meeting people space very intentionally.

00:47:58:09 – 00:48:10:08
Yemi Scott
It was not I wasn’t random. I would hear their names and I would hear what was their field. Oh, maybe the head of digital transformation. For the moment, I’m like, she’s the one I’m going to talk to.

00:48:10:10 – 00:48:12:00
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:48:12:02 – 00:48:36:09
Yemi Scott
I don’t have any names. you know, and we’re having conversations. And as I talk to these people, I could see that this ecosystem was so supportive. You know, that you have the business gateway, you have, the one tech hub. There’s so many. It was the Barclays Eagles lab. I have, startup grind, for us, there are so many solid ecosystems here that are so supportive.

00:48:36:12 – 00:49:02:21
Yemi Scott
So for me, it was a no brainer. I’m like, well, you better start. I know that’s something I’ll see here a while. Yeah, but it can’t be just one aspect of what it is. You don’t. It has to be, a full integration of everything that you now know in this space, in this, during this time as well, I had consulted for Newton X, unsurprisingly, my first, client happened to be met.

00:49:02:23 – 00:49:05:11
Speaker 3
Nice guys. I was having just a just a.

00:49:05:11 – 00:49:07:10
Steven Schauer
Little player in the virtual space.

00:49:07:11 – 00:49:10:13
Speaker 3
I know. And graduations.

00:49:10:15 – 00:49:30:04
Yemi Scott
The space were building. And I’m like, you should have done this first. You know, this was like, two years after the whole thing just went, you know, very open. And then there was that whole thing about all the metaverse dead. and then they were losing money and they were having to fire stuff, from meta because they were not making any money from this venture that they were focusing on.

00:49:30:05 – 00:49:41:03
Yemi Scott
And, and they were asking questions. And I remember the lady telling me that, oh, everything you told us that nobody else has given us this kind of insight, you know, and and I know that. So again, that confidence boost like.

00:49:41:05 – 00:49:41:23
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:49:42:00 – 00:50:02:11
Yemi Scott
Now you can see that the consultants and actually help people understand the full spectrum of Web3. Web3 is not just, NFTs and crypto and blockchain, which once people hear, you know, Web3 is that instance, you know, association.

00:50:02:13 – 00:50:03:02
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00:50:03:02 – 00:50:24:08
Yemi Scott
And honestly, crypto has no giving. It hasn’t been the best, you know, in terms of helping us to, to to convince people that this technology is actually is worth it. So, so I’m sure space and I’m like, okay, now I can start to show people that there’s more to it. Three Web3 is the entire doc technologies. It is DeFi.

00:50:24:08 – 00:50:59:07
Yemi Scott
It is. I, it is, digital twinning. It is augmented reality. It is quantum computing. Like this is all aspects of technology and anything else coming on top will be layered on this technology. So that way you get in the better for you. Yeah. So I, I now started XR ology limited here in Aberdeen in 2022. And in this short space of time it’s been there’s been so many opportunities that have been presented.

00:50:59:09 – 00:51:35:01
Yemi Scott
I was able to do an accelerator with elevator UK. I finished that. I also had an opportunity to go, with a cohort of 45 strong tech, female startups in Scotland. We had a woman in the in the group. Well, we was sponsored by the Scottish Government for the Lisbon, Web summit last year. for me, that was like, okay, then, you know, I was able to pitch what was there from 30, like 60, and then we’ll cut down to like 20.

00:51:35:03 – 00:52:12:13
Yemi Scott
And then we had another addition. So that for me was it was almost like, this is like everything that you have done, this is this is, you know, everything coming to fruition. It’s coming together and just recognize, being part of this cohort where you know that strong female leaders doing amazing stuff, they have raised six. They had, you know, these are people that their revenue was already in hundreds and thousands, you know, to be in that space and form that bond, even when it was not related to business.

00:52:12:14 – 00:52:36:10
Yemi Scott
also being here, I have collaborated with a group called Latin Spot. we had a spot, a little, little form from the Aberdeen City Council and it was to create, new West African pieces that was donated to the Aberdeen City Library. so we have three pieces now sitting there. So my populous help them integrate technology into the whole design process.

00:52:36:10 – 00:52:49:02
Yemi Scott
So I took them when I workshops. These were designers that had been in the space for 20 years. So for them designing has is always to these sketches are like oh yeah ladies let me show you the new technology.

00:52:49:08 – 00:52:50:23
Speaker 3
Nice. Yeah yeah yeah.

00:52:51:01 – 00:53:10:22
Yemi Scott
So on and there were so open to it. And we did this amazing thing. We created, a metaverse gallery, you know, where people can go in that can access the physical pieces. And we also had other assets of the same pieces with the virtual models, and they could, you know, interact with them in the space. So cool.

00:53:11:00 – 00:53:14:14
Yemi Scott
You know, if you ever come to Aberdeen to stop by the central Library.

00:53:14:17 – 00:53:15:14
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:53:15:16 – 00:53:53:16
Yemi Scott
I have live them I mean, there’s just been so much going on. I also have something comes up with Tech Fest. I do something with the, University of Aberdeen. did, like, on a, a workshop on health tech. And I, just teaching the, the cohort how to maximize use that GPT for, like, developing business models, your business canvas training that, that, I to actually have all your information and you you can still go back to it and keep on regenerating different aspects of that business regardless or whatever it is.

00:53:53:18 – 00:54:28:11
Yemi Scott
I also did something with a great school of art in, in like the Black Spot event. So we took a workshop with, fashion, department, the one, two, four, in them, you know, the designers came, they bought the pieces that they, you know, they could touch them. And we just realized, well, we have that workshop that everything we are saying from our cultural aspect with Africans is still the same thing that they are also trying to, you know, achieve here in Scotland, which is how do we, you know, retain our traditional textiles?

00:54:28:11 – 00:54:47:08
Yemi Scott
How do we find that place where we can cross culture, bring these fabrics and make them more modern? You know how? Yeah, we have waste. Can we take what we have wasted and we upcycle them and we don’t realize that there are so many, you know, very similar threads. Yeah. Through I mean, like, we should be working together,

00:54:47:10 – 00:54:48:09
Steven Schauer
These connections.

00:54:48:11 – 00:55:07:16
Yemi Scott
That are creating pieces that we can showcase, you know, to show this cross-cultural integration because Aberdeen is so multiple. True. And we wanted to show that. And it’s just been it’s been I don’t know I know it’s you know yes indeed the business is still a startup. Let me just put that there.

00:55:07:18 – 00:55:08:09
Speaker 3
Yeah I think.

00:55:08:09 – 00:55:09:19
Yemi Scott
There’s any revenue.

00:55:09:19 – 00:55:12:06
Speaker 3
We really got to start somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:55:12:07 – 00:55:25:01
Yemi Scott
What they me is that is just the joy of being able to share that knowledge. So when people ask me, what do you do? In the words of my friend Nico Fara, unlike, a Web3 evangelist.

00:55:25:02 – 00:55:58:09
Steven Schauer
You definitely are. You are that so? They thank you for bringing me up to speed on everything that you’re doing. And I want to give you, a little time here before we get to the end. for a call to action. What? You know, what do you want people to take away from this, discussion? And they can, you know, how they can support your, you know, new business or how they can support, just this, technological evolution that we’re in the midst of or whatever.

00:55:58:09 – 00:56:04:13
Steven Schauer
What’s what’s your call to action? What do you want people to do now that they’ve gotten to know you a little bit? Yeah. I mean, what’s all you know.

00:56:04:15 – 00:56:07:17
Yemi Scott
To do to do people let’s me look into the camera.

00:56:07:19 – 00:56:08:20
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00:56:08:22 – 00:56:13:03
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Tell us, tell us what? Tell us what we should do. Now that we know more.

00:56:13:05 – 00:56:40:02
Yemi Scott
They open. Stay open. I always say stay open. Be open minded. Be open to listening, to learning. to get more information, to exploring these technologies, you know. Yes, I is the new kid on the block. and it seems to have taken over and we’ve already talked about, GPT, Midjourney, but there is so much going on.

00:56:40:04 – 00:57:03:21
Yemi Scott
Yeah, there is a lot going on. I think they must have, like, AI tools coming out every other week must be in their hundreds. So there’s so many tools out there. Do not get don’t try to learn it all. Just ask the right questions. and again I’ll see whatever it is you want to do. We have left the realm of where you need somebody that knows somebody to help you get.

00:57:03:21 – 00:57:30:06
Yemi Scott
Get a leg up in, you know, your carry out, anything you want to do. They maximize technology. Anything is possible. Right now. When I speak to, younger kids because I mental younger kids, I tell them everything you do is contents protected. It’s your data that is your data. Yeah. While you’re watching other people produce content, you should also learn to start producing your own content.

00:57:30:06 – 00:58:04:16
Yemi Scott
Because content is king. Once you start to learn to create from your own space, you finally have the opportunity to bypass a lot of the government regulations, the, you know, the things that do not really there is never for the betterment of the of the public is always is. Home is a government that has a hidden agenda. You know they’re going to profit from this, but with these technologies that are coming in, there’s always a way to equitably, you know, transparently, you know, find your niche, you will find your community.

00:58:04:18 – 00:58:19:16
Yemi Scott
And that’s the beauty of this age. Now is the tech age. I tell people this, you know, when we had a dotcom age, when you had to go online and you had to first press the more than you have to wait for that little connecting sound before you go online.

00:58:19:18 – 00:58:20:05
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00:58:20:07 – 00:58:21:12
Yemi Scott
But how far back that was?

00:58:21:15 – 00:58:23:06
Steven Schauer
The dial up the ages.

00:58:23:06 – 00:58:24:11
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.

00:58:24:13 – 00:58:50:02
Yemi Scott
Your phone connects all free public life of the world, you know, and unlike that age, it took such a long time for it to come to where it is now. But this tech age, it’s not. This is accelerated exponentially really fast. What kinds of scare people? Well, the truth is that if you do not adopt now, you will die as a business.

00:58:50:02 – 00:59:06:22
Yemi Scott
It is unfortunate because by the time you want to catch up, the technology will have changed again. Again. And then you, you, it’s redundant and then you it’s overwhelming. And then you don’t know what to do. Just ask the right questions I am available call to action. You can always reach out to me.

00:59:06:23 – 00:59:07:06
Speaker 3
Yeah, I.

00:59:07:06 – 00:59:10:00
Steven Schauer
Had a people get in touch with you at x x x.

00:59:10:04 – 00:59:11:00
Speaker 3
XRology

00:59:11:02 – 00:59:11:19
Yemi Scott
XRology

00:59:11:19 – 00:59:15:01
Steven Schauer
So XRology. How do we get in touch with you there?

00:59:15:03 – 00:59:36:03
Yemi Scott
So talk to me. I’m very active on LinkedIn as myself, as Yemi Scott. but I also have my XRology, business page that I linked to that. But most of the time it’s mostly me on LinkedIn. Just sharing knowledge, sharing what side I’m doing, what I’m seeing in the space. You know, the people that are also doing amazing stuff in the space.

00:59:36:08 – 01:00:03:07
Yemi Scott
I have a lot of different ventures that I’m working on. I’m helping them to build their one MVP right now. so I help people to build Web3. I don’t know, design spaces, whatever, but, very, very, effective and efficient cost. Because when you talk about Web3 building and development, it’s always the high cost and the high, the financial barrier that is.

01:00:03:08 – 01:00:22:02
Yemi Scott
So it scares people away. Sure, sure. I know that there are tools that we can maximize and leverage on to give you one. If it is just a little, you know, dip your toes in a dip before you commit full scale to it. So help people to build. You want to test the metaverse, how you want to test how you can integrate Web3 technologies.

01:00:22:07 – 01:00:26:03
Yemi Scott
And just as a cost that does not in order to break the bank.

01:00:26:05 – 01:00:27:00
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:00:27:02 – 01:00:50:06
Yemi Scott
Call me I’m your girl. and perfect network and a pool of amazing Web3 developers that works with them that are doing phenomenal stuff. You’re talking about Unreal Engine, blockchain technology, smart contracts create an NFT, tokenization, gamification, interoperability and I’m giving you all the words now.

01:00:50:10 – 01:00:50:18
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

01:00:50:18 – 01:00:51:08
Speaker 3
You are.

01:00:51:08 – 01:00:54:09
Yemi Scott
Somebody you.

01:00:54:11 – 01:00:56:14
Speaker 3
Have haven’t been. Yeah.

01:00:56:14 – 01:01:20:09
Steven Schauer
Well I will put on, the show notes page, your LinkedIn connection and in your XRology connection. So anybody listening to this or watching you, this can, can get in touch with you and and. Yeah. Take you up on that offer to, dip their, you know, toe in the, in the Web3 pool with your assistance. So we’ll make sure to promote that so people get in touch with you.

01:01:20:11 – 01:01:39:23
Steven Schauer
so we, we’re kind of nearing the end, and I and I and every episode in a, in a similar way, my folks have been, we’re on episode seven now, so folks are, have been watching all of these or listening to all these. They know we end every episode in the same way. and I end by asking all the guests the same three questions.

01:01:39:23 – 01:02:03:00
Steven Schauer
And, these questions are about, hope, you know, hope is in a strategy, right? We need it. We need to have other things that are our plans of actions. but hope is needed in order to get us to that, you know, desire to do the plan of action. and we’re, you know, we’re living in a, in a world that’s full of some really hard things.

01:02:03:00 – 01:02:23:15
Steven Schauer
And, you know, we talked about fast fashion and all of the, you know, pollution and damage that that does. And so hope is important. yes it is. So I’ve got three questions for you. And I just kind of give you the first response that comes to your mind. It doesn’t have to be a long answer, just kind of what’s your gut reaction to these questions?

01:02:23:15 – 01:02:44:13
Steven Schauer
And, and I’ll throw the first one out there. and it’s this idea of hope is, not only can we envision a better future, but it’s, something that we have some agency that we can take steps to, to make that vision a reality. So the first question for me is, what’s your vision for a better future for you personally or professionally or for the world?

01:02:44:13 – 01:02:49:01
Steven Schauer
What’s what’s your hope? What’s your vision for a better future?

01:02:49:03 – 01:03:10:17
Yemi Scott
I may sound cliche. Well, equality for all, man for me will be will be one thing like everybody should be saying yes, we know that. Yes, I say all the things are not equal, but equity for me is very, very important.

01:03:10:19 – 01:03:14:16
Steven Schauer
So tell me why. Why is that, your vision for the future?

01:03:14:18 – 01:03:39:23
Yemi Scott
Because I feel like if everybody’s working as a collective, you know, when nobody feels like you know, I’m better than that person, or this person is better than me, you know, it removes a lot of the the unnecessary, bias, the unnecessary, you know, having to overthink things. Everybody’s just. They’re working for the same purpose, you know? So for me, it’s how can we work together as a collective?

01:03:39:23 – 01:04:06:16
Yemi Scott
Because humanity needs to come together. I mean, the planet that we are on, anything could be total loser. When humanity steps back, the planet itself. So clearly we are the best. You know? Yeah, yeah. The past on the planet. If those those, someone say that. What if we’re all on Mars because Mars had water and then we destroyed it, and then Adam and Eve had to take a pod and escape pod.

01:04:06:16 – 01:04:30:08
Yemi Scott
I landed on Earth, and that was what caused the Big bang, you know, the big bang. And then that was how we had to start a new evolution in reality. like, I wouldn’t, you know, there’s that possibility. We clearly need to think as a unit. And if we can’t come together and it is focused on pure intentions, you know, it’s everybody is it’s all for one and one for all.

01:04:30:10 – 01:04:37:20
Yemi Scott
Basically, like we need to come together. Ubuntu mentality that if I can do for one they can do for me.

01:04:38:01 – 01:04:42:17
Speaker 3
And yeah. I know it’s a.

01:04:42:19 – 01:04:44:15
Yemi Scott
It’s a, it’s a dystopian, you.

01:04:44:15 – 01:04:46:09
Speaker 3
Know, but it’s.

01:04:46:13 – 01:04:52:03
Yemi Scott
Idealistic person. I have been told that. But I’m also again I’m like, why not?

01:04:52:05 – 01:04:55:12
Speaker 3
Yeah. Idealism. Idealism can can come together.

01:04:55:12 – 01:05:21:01
Steven Schauer
So the final question is, now imagine your better future, an equitable future. We’re all working together and and and striving. you know, for for more, pure intentions in the world and making a sustainability and, advantages equitable for everyone. Imagine that’s happened. It’s it is the world we’re living in now. How do you feel?

01:05:21:03 – 01:05:22:22
Speaker 3
Oh.

01:05:23:00 – 01:05:47:00
Yemi Scott
That I never have to work a day in my life that I can finally travel the world, you know, visit the Asian sites I feel I, I feel at peace, not, peace. Right now I feel peace, but to have that’s at a larger scale, not just what you’re creating within your own internal bubble. I think it would be such a breath of fresh air.

01:05:47:02 – 01:06:17:15
Yemi Scott
You know, they’ll be that sense of just belonging, that you know, that there’s no strife. Humanity can finally go back to what we’re supposed to be. We’re supposed to be nomads. We’re never supposed to be citizens stagnant in one place. We’re supposed to move like Moana. Yes. That’s what makes us become blossom. Traveling the sea, sharing our culture, bringing in new culture, you know, so that there’s that oneness with, humanity’s past and realize that there’s really no difference between the all of us.

01:06:17:15 – 01:06:19:09
Yemi Scott
We are all just the same.

01:06:19:10 – 01:06:21:03
Speaker 3
Yeah. Oh, we all want.

01:06:21:03 – 01:06:21:21
Yemi Scott
The same things.

01:06:22:02 – 01:06:40:12
Steven Schauer
Yes, yes. Well, I’m going to do my little part to help your vision come to be. That’s, I share your vision for a better future, and I. I hope whatever little goodness I can add to the world gets us there one step at a time. So. And and I know you’re going to do the same on your end.

01:06:40:12 – 01:07:02:15
Steven Schauer
And, thank you so much to me for thanks for time today. It’s been lovely to get to know you. And I wish you and in your startup grand success and Steven. Yeah, we will, follow you and watch you and, you know, continue to support you and cheer you on as your as your dreams grow and become reality.

01:07:02:17 – 01:07:03:05
Speaker 3
Thank you.

01:07:03:05 – 01:07:23:10
Yemi Scott
Stephen. Thank you for the opportunity as well. Thank you to the Change Makers Alliance because they, they they were like, you need to speak to Steve in an hour. That I’m the sustain thing. I’m like, I’m all down for that. So thank you for here heeding the call and doing this, because I know this is not your 9 to 5.

01:07:23:10 – 01:07:39:10
Yemi Scott
So this for you as well is the sacrifice of the collective that made this. And I am I am so grateful that you, you decided to set out to do this and to give us this platform to, you know, share stories and, and just be honest as best as we can.

01:07:39:15 – 01:07:40:13
Speaker 3
Yeah.

01:07:40:15 – 01:07:44:02
Yemi Scott
thank you so much. It was such a lovely, lovely podcast.

01:07:44:04 – 01:07:55:22
Steven Schauer
Well, thank you as well. Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s a pure joy for me because I get to meet people like you around the world. And how wonderful is that? That my world is just now expanded even more.

01:07:56:00 – 01:08:00:11
Speaker 3
I might be. Yeah.

01:08:00:13 – 01:08:07:02
Steven Schauer
All right. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. And with that, I wish you well. And cheers. goodbye.

01:08:07:04 – 01:08:09:06
Speaker 3
Thank you. I thank you.

01:08:09:06 – 01:08:36:13
Steven Schauer
And that wraps up another inspiring episode of Stories Sustain Us. I want to extend my thanks to Emmy Scott for sharing her incredible journey with us today. The Emmy story is a powerful reminder of the magic that happens when we follow our passions and embrace new opportunities. From her adventurous world travels to her creative evolution, from game development to pioneering digital fashion, Emmy’s journey is truly remarkable.

01:08:36:15 – 01:08:57:06
Steven Schauer
Her emphasis on sustainability in the fashion industry and her challenge to the fast fashion model are both timely and essential. You know, I was really eager to talk to Yemi this week for a number of reasons. I knew she was going to have a lot to teach me about tech, but I also want to learn more about her challenge to the fast fashion industry.

01:08:57:08 – 01:09:24:22
Steven Schauer
As we talked a little bit about that in the episode. The fast fashion industry is really notorious for not being sustainable. it creates these inexpensive clothes that, are just bombarded to us by advertising. So it creates this kind of consumer loop where we have to buy the new clothes to be in this season and the next season there’s new clothes, and the next season there’s new clothes.

01:09:25:00 – 01:09:56:10
Steven Schauer
So it’s this really, consumerism, intense, unnecessarily consumerism, intense, type of industry. And look, the human brain is just hard wired to want to belong. Right. We’re a social species. We we need other people. We need to be part of a group. And those who are really adept at marketing and advertising, they know that. And they use that desire to belong, to help sell their products.

01:09:56:10 – 01:10:19:14
Steven Schauer
Right. You better buy this to fit in. You got to buy this to be cool or be part of the in-crowd or whatever, right? In the fast fashion industry is really notorious for that. And particularly targeting teens, by making the teens, really kind of feel or understand that they have to look a particular way to belong or they have to wear these clothes to belong.

01:10:19:16 – 01:10:51:08
Steven Schauer
So that’s, really harmful to the teens in, many ways. And again, it creates this unnecessary consumerism where we’re buying more stuff than what we really, truly need. And on the environmental side, fast fashion is also notorious. It’s a very water intensive type of industry. It’s, kind of notorious for pollutants, you know, the dyes and other things that go into make the clothing can be problematic environmentally.

01:10:51:10 – 01:11:14:13
Steven Schauer
And then socially, you look at where these, garments are often made in places like Bangladesh or other developing nations, where these individuals aren’t paid a whole lot to make these clothes. And then they’re also, the societies that have to deal with the environmental fallout of the water intensive usage and the pollutants that are part of this process.

01:11:14:15 – 01:11:48:16
Steven Schauer
also that these clothes could be made and then shipped across the world to places like the United States and Western Europe to be bombarded with advertising. So that we buy more and more and more. So the fast fashion industries is notorious, for not being sustainable. And it’s really, I think, a mess. So embracing sustainable fashion alternatives, I think, is crucial to mitigating these harms and promoting a more ethical and environmentally friendly fashion industry.

01:11:48:18 – 01:12:13:15
Steven Schauer
So I want to thank Yemi for her challenge to the fast fashion industry. Additionally, Amy’s vision for a future of equality, collective collaboration, and the positive power of technology is something I think that we can all aspire to. I’d like to thank you, Amy, one last time, for sharing her hopes for a world where everyone is seen and valued, and where cultural diversity is celebrated.

01:12:13:17 – 01:12:36:21
Steven Schauer
Her encouragement to stay open minded. Ask the right questions and maximize the potential of technology leaves me inspired. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. If you found your story inspiring, please be sure to share this episode with your friends and family. Click the like button, leave a comment, and follow the show so you know when new episodes are released.

01:12:36:23 – 01:13:05:06
Steven Schauer
Speaking of new episodes next week on story, Sustain Us will be traveling from Scotland where we just spoke yummy to Singapore, where my next guest is a sustainable city manager who is on the frontlines of reducing mining emissions and carbon intensity, proving that business and sustainability can go hand in hand. You’ll learn why tracking and measuring impact is crucial for driving improvement in sustainability efforts, including sustainable finance.

01:13:05:08 – 01:13:30:03
Steven Schauer
And you’ll learn about the importance of balance in ESG reporting. And the triple bottom line, which is people, planet and profit. And if you don’t know what ESG is, you’ll learn about that next week. And you’ll also learn about Muay Thai boxing. Yes, we talk about Muay Thai. So from mining emissions to Muay Thai, you’re not going to want to miss next episode of Stories Sustain Us, which is available on August 6th.

01:13:30:05 – 01:13:41:19
Steven Schauer
Wherever you listen to podcast or on stories, sustain is.com. Until next time, I’m Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself and each other. Take care.

Listen to the podcast or watch the full interview.

Summary

Louis Chan, a sustainability professional, shares his journey and expertise in the field. He grew up in Singapore with a strong connection to nature, which influenced his passion for sustainability. He currently works for an investment holding company, focusing on reducing mining emissions and carbon intensity. Louis emphasizes the importance of tracking and measuring impact to drive improvement. He is also involved in various organizations and co-founded a startup in the air conditioning space. Louis is an advocate for balance in ESG reporting and believes in the significance of the triple bottom line: planet, people, and profit. Louis Chan discusses his morning reading resources and how he stays up to speed on sustainability information. He mentions Work on Climate, a community where people discuss sustainability happenings, and the green or sustainability section of the Wall Street Journal. He also emphasizes the importance of staying aware of the energy transition and geopolitics, particularly in Australia. Steven Schauer asks about the pushback against sustainability metrics in the United States and how it is impacting the rest of the world. Louis explains that in Singapore and Southeast Asia, sustainability is not as divisive as in the US, and there is generally support for climate action. They also discuss the Arctic Glide Company, which has developed a patented COI technology for air conditioning that reduces electricity consumption. Louis shares advice for consumers on combating greenwashing and finding truly sustainable companies. He emphasizes the need for government regulation and innovation in the marketplace. They also discuss the importance of long-term thinking and the life cycle of products. Louis shares his vision for a future where business incentives and sustainability are aligned, and he feels that it would be a step forward and a place where he truly belongs.

About the Guest

Louis Chan is currently the sustainability manager for an investment holding company. In his role, he assumes leadership in the formulation of sustainability strategies and policies, conducts ESG due diligence and also the sustainability reporting efforts with the subsidiaries. In addition, as a Trustee for a UK charity, Louis has played a key role in the establishment and enforcement of robust sustainability policies. His visionary approach ensures the charity’s unwavering commitment to achieving carbon neutrality by 2030, thereby making a tangible impact on global environmental goals. Louis has also co-founded and advised various start-ups such as a company called ArcticGlide which has a patented coil technology to reduce electricity consumption in air conditioning. His advisory work lies primarily in the climate-tech space and he specialises in helping businesses scale and doing investor relations work. Personally, he enjoys navigating the intricacies of capital markets to drive positive change and sustainable investments.

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/chan-jin-wei-louis
Personal website: www.chanjinweilouis.com

Show Notes

ArcticGlide: https://www.linkedin.com/company/arcticglide/

Keywords

sustainability, Singapore, nature, mining, emissions, carbon intensity, tracking, reporting, ESG, balance, morning reading, sustainability information, Work on Climate, Wall Street Journal, energy transition, geopolitics, pushback against sustainability metrics, support for climate action, Arctic Glide Company, COI technology, electricity consumption, combating greenwashing, government regulation, innovation, long-term thinking, life cycle of products, business incentives, aligned sustainability

Transcript

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:33:06
Steven Schauer
Welcome back to another episode of Stories Sustain Us, the podcast, where we dive into the inspiring journeys of those making a difference in the world of sustainability. I’m your host, Steven Schauer, and today we have an exciting episode for you. My guest today is Louis Chan, Sustainability Manager, whose story begins in the vibrant city of Singapore. Growing up surrounded by the natural beauty of Southeast Asia, Louis developed a deep connection to nature that has fueled his lifelong passion for sustainability.

00:00:33:08 – 00:00:58:05
Steven Schauer
In this episode, Louis takes us through his fascinating journey from his childhood in Singapore to his current role at an investment holding company. He’s on the frontlines of reducing mining emissions and carbon intensity, proving that business and sustainability can go hand in hand. Louis shares valuable insights on the importance of tracking and measuring impact to drive improvement in sustainability efforts.

00:00:58:07 – 00:01:26:13
Steven Schauer
He emphasizes the need for balance and ESG reporting, and highlights the triple bottom line. People, planet and profit. We’ll also dive into some pressing issues, like the divisive pushback against sustainability metrics in the United States, compared to Southeast Asia. Louis also provides useful tips for consumers to combat greenwashing by identifying red flags and marketing, researching company history, and giving feedback.

00:01:26:15 – 00:01:56:01
Steven Schauer
Let me tell you a bit more about Louis Chan before diving into the interview. In his role as the sustainability manager for an investment holding company. Louis assumes leadership in the formulation of sustainability strategies and policies, and he conducts ESG due diligence and sustainability reporting efforts with the subsidiaries. In addition, as a trustee for a UK charity, Louis has played a key role in the establishment and enforcement of robust sustainability policies.

00:01:56:02 – 00:02:31:16
Steven Schauer
His visionary approach ensures the charity’s unwavering commitment to achieving carbon neutrality by 2030, thereby making a tangible impact on global environmental goals. Louis has also co-founded and advises various startups, such as a company called Arctic Glide, which has patented coil technology to reduce electricity consumption and air conditioning, which we talk about in this interview. His advisory work lies primarily in the climate tech space, and he specializes in helping businesses scale and doing investor relations work.

00:02:31:18 – 00:03:03:22
Steven Schauer
Louis personally enjoys navigating the intricacies of capital markets to drive positive change in sustainable investments and in all his free time. If that’s not enough, Louis is a Muay Thai boxer, which is also fascinating to me. In the interview ahead, Louis paints a hopeful vision for the future where business incentives and sustainability are perfectly aligned. So get ready for an enlightening conversation with Louis Chan on Stories Sustain Us, where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

00:03:03:22 – 00:03:15:19
Steven Schauer
All right. Well. Hello, Louis. How are you? I guess it’s this evening for you. It’s good. Early morning for me in Seattle. It’s evening for you. Correct. Where are you in the world?

00:03:15:21 – 00:03:24:00
Louis Chan
One. Yes. Thank you for having me. So, yes, I’m currently based in Singapore, so in the evening for me, but I’m still very much of it. Yes, sometimes it is.

00:03:24:00 – 00:03:45:08
Steven Schauer
Well, well thank you for for staying up late and joining me. I appreciate, working with you kind of beforehand to schedule this to make find time that would work for both of us. I’m really excited to have you on the show. so, I guess, Louis, let’s just jump in and, tell me a little bit about yourself.

00:03:45:08 – 00:03:58:16
Steven Schauer
We’ve I haven’t had the pleasure of meeting you yet, so, I’m looking forward to getting to know you. Tell me, you know, where were you born? What was, you know, your childhood like? And how did you get to this point in your career with what’s your history? What’s your story?

00:03:58:18 – 00:04:14:21
Louis Chan
Thank you. Yeah. So, I was born in Singapore, so I’m a Singapore citizen, and I have, generally stayed in Singapore since then. So I think, how was I think Singapore? I’m not sure if you have ever visited here, but if you have not or if you have, you can always let me know if you ever come back here.

00:04:14:23 – 00:04:35:12
Louis Chan
But Singapore is a mix of urban and stuff of nature, so I think I was quite lucky for me that actually I was born, while I live in a building and everything. I had a constant exposure to the environment because my parents would always bring me out to nature parts I do. Yeah, yeah. To just experience. What is it like to get out of your house?

00:04:35:14 – 00:04:52:10
Louis Chan
So they actually taught me a lot about the value of what nature can do for us. And why we should actually protect it. And so that’s how I did the sustainability, which is, my current area of work. And, I’ve been doing this for quite some time, and I think that, I can introduce a bit of what I do, my company.

00:04:52:12 – 00:05:19:02
Louis Chan
So basically I work for an investment holding company and by we look into, investments, into commodities, into the mining space. And what I do in sustainability for them is to basically a few things, one of which is to look for technologies to actually reduce our mining emissions or carbon intensity, because we all know that, okay, I know, and most people do know that mining is very much needed for the energy transition in terms of the minerals and that need it.

00:05:19:04 – 00:05:43:07
Louis Chan
So it’s a bit hard to just completely stop mining. But it’s more important to know that since the materials are needed, what can we do to reduce the negative impact. And that is two different ways, for example, to carbon capture, to hydrogen, to solar and so much more. So I don’t think that I do is to do reporting, because I think that it’s always important to actually measure and track what you are actually doing, or the impact actually making onto the planet.

00:05:43:09 – 00:06:03:18
Louis Chan
If you don’t check it, you never know, how can you improve it? So checking is the first line for that, but you should never be the last, that it should be the first step to then a plan to actually improve the information. That’s why there’s a job amongst other things. Other things that I do is also be on the board member for for organizations because I believe in contributing my expertise.

00:06:03:20 – 00:06:28:05
Louis Chan
I don’t know everything, but I think I want to share what I do know and to also learn from others. So that involves, for example, being on the trustee board of trustees for an organization in the UK called the about. We look at LGBTQ plus, communities. And what I look at specifically is the sustainability angle on how, those individuals actually more affected or more prone to certain climate disasters.

00:06:28:07 – 00:06:47:11
Louis Chan
Other things that I do is also, I co-founded a startup is, called Arctic Light, but we are in the electric, air conditioning space about we aim to reduce the electricity consumption, because we believe that this is buildings, country or air conditioning contribute significantly to our buildings emissions. There should be a focus as well.

00:06:47:13 – 00:06:53:16
Louis Chan
So, I think that I volunteer a lot in the Glasgow, and I in Hobbes. I do maritime, which is a form of, Muay Thai Boxing, I guess.

00:06:53:17 – 00:06:55:11
Steven Schauer
Thank you. Yeah.

00:06:55:13 – 00:06:56:15
Louis Chan
Thank you.

00:06:56:17 – 00:07:20:08
Steven Schauer
So let me back. Back? Yeah. Well, I want to dive into a lot of your professional experience in just a minute, but can we go back in time? So for for folks who may not be, familiar with Singapore, I haven’t been to that area of the world yet. I’ve been, you know, to India, a little to the northwest of you and the China northeast of you and Australia kind of southeast of you.

00:07:20:08 – 00:07:39:15
Steven Schauer
But I haven’t been into that area of Singapore, which for for folks who may not be, fully where’s is kind of in the Malaysia area, is that correct? And it’s an independent nation. you know, 5 or 6 million, residents, I believe, if I understand that correctly.

00:07:39:17 – 00:07:55:13
Louis Chan
Yes, that’s correct. Five, 6 million of we are very close to Malaysia. So oftentimes not me, but oftentimes a lot of my friends actually just drive over to Malaysia, to enjoy the food and the things that they have to offer as well. And also, a lot of Malaysians actually come over to Singapore to work and vice versa.

00:07:55:15 – 00:08:23:19
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Nice. So your childhood growing up, then you said you grew up in a in a high, high rise building. Did you have siblings? What was your childhood like in, in how far away were the some of the nature parks and things that you visited? Tell me a little bit more about growing up and, how you kind of got onto this sustainability path that your parents, helped, you know, kind of, bring you along on.

00:08:23:19 – 00:08:27:12
Steven Schauer
But I’d love to know a little bit more about how you got here.

00:08:27:14 – 00:08:46:02
Louis Chan
Yes. So, yeah, I’m the only child. So I was the only one, in the family. And my family is quite small. It’s just my parents and I of course, I always have interactions with my relatives. I grew up with my grandma and grandparents actually, now, so my aunties and uncles. So while I’m the only child, I think I’ve always received a lot of loving care.

00:08:46:04 – 00:09:06:11
Louis Chan
So I don’t neglect or anything, which I guess is a good thing looking back. But of course you you. I’m not sure if I felt lonely when I was a child, but looking back, I may have felt lonely, I guess because it’s only one. I didn’t have any pets features, if I remember correctly, but I think it’s fine until I accepted it then, and I think I grew up fine after that.

00:09:06:13 – 00:09:25:05
Louis Chan
But I think what, what allowed me to have a social gathering or social interaction is because, I mean, in Singapore there’s a lot of nurseries and playgroups. So I think I grew up quite closely with my childhood friends. I think there was a lot of interaction. My parents were more allow me to grow more and gave me more freedom, so I didn’t have to go back that early.

00:09:25:08 – 00:09:52:04
Louis Chan
On certain days when I was in family school or secondary school, but I could just hang out with them and learn from them, and stop and and basically enjoy what the world has to offer besides just the textbooks and all sorts of things. And that taught me the how I love human interaction. So I know that I mentioned in my professional career sustainability, but actually my degree in university was actually in pharmacy, and I chose pharmacy because I love, bio and chemistry, and I still do.

00:09:52:06 – 00:10:10:01
Louis Chan
And I also wanted to meet people because I did my impression then in Houston did that in the pharmacy, warts and everything. You get to work a lot with the patients, usually they elderly, the Asian whatever. But I think that I love interacting with them, which is why I chose to, pursue a degree in pharmacy at that point in time.

00:10:10:03 – 00:10:25:15
Louis Chan
I think along the way I realized that I think sustainability was more for me, and may also be because my childhood, how I said power, I was for that is not just the urban sort of things, even though I’m in Singapore, but also the nature sort of things. I guess maybe that influenced me. No way. I’m not sure if you ever did.

00:10:25:15 – 00:10:31:23
Louis Chan
By looking back, I think it did. So that’s why I always in.

00:10:32:01 – 00:10:44:02
Steven Schauer
You know, sports or any extracurricular activities or anything as you, as you were growing up, that you were involved in, besides your your studies, what what kept you the interested as, as you were growing up?

00:10:44:04 – 00:10:57:10
Louis Chan
I mean, in tennis. Quite. I played table tennis. so that’s what this means. What I did in secondary school, not so much, but in JC and in university, I did a lot of, I did Dragon Ball for a while. Oh, I think wow.

00:10:57:10 – 00:10:58:10
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

00:10:58:12 – 00:11:16:17
Louis Chan
Like fun actually. Looking back. Yes. And then, I went to then that got me interested in gaming cause I think that in Dragon Ball you have to be fit and then gym. Sure. So that’s why I went to the gym. And then somehow I got interested into Muay Thai boxing, Muay Thai because I think it’s so important to learn self-defense.

00:11:16:21 – 00:11:30:03
Louis Chan
And I think it’s fun to me. Fun. It is tiring. I think that you only have to go through hardship to actually be a better person. So, can you tell us what, has kept me doing for the past 3 or 4 years? So that’s.

00:11:30:05 – 00:11:42:16
Steven Schauer
competitive and, and moiety competitions, or is it more just for the training and the, the self-defense and kind of being, staying physically fit, or do you actually compete in Mai Tai matches?

00:11:42:17 – 00:11:58:10
Louis Chan
I mean, I’ve only done sparring, so I’ve not been to any competitive match, but that is actually one of my goals to achieve this year because I think it’s it’s just different. I think it’s going to be it’s going to be quite tough my first match, but I think that I have to myself that I will be and even if I do something, I think that’s fine for, that is just going through it.

00:11:58:10 – 00:12:05:07
Louis Chan
And anyway, it’s not, I’m not doing it representing a country or anything. So the pressure should not be that high, I hope.

00:12:05:09 – 00:12:31:11
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Yeah. I am super impressed with with with that and anybody who is in those types of, of physical combat type sports because, yeah, it’s as much, mental as it is physical. I’m sure to be able to, to, you know, compete in something like that’s super, super impressive. I didn’t know that about you. So thank you for for sharing that and good luck.

00:12:31:12 – 00:12:37:22
Steven Schauer
Hope you make your goal and get into a competitive, match. This year. That’s amazing.

00:12:38:00 – 00:12:38:16
Louis Chan
So when think you.

00:12:38:16 – 00:12:40:12
Steven Schauer
Were in.

00:12:40:14 – 00:12:55:13
Louis Chan
Go ahead. I was going anyone, regardless of who you meet. Hi. So, there will be people in the gym who’s like, 60 and just. You doing great. So I think that whoever is listening, you know, even if you are 60, 50, I think you can just try it. Because if you never try, you never know it. Maybe it’s the right thing for you, but.

00:12:55:15 – 00:12:56:00
Louis Chan
Yeah.

00:12:56:02 – 00:13:25:03
Steven Schauer
Yeah. That’s wonderful. I, yeah, very, very impressive. yeah. I have to say, touch of the. I want to, you know, see how you do, because that’s that’s something that, I, I would love to see, you in a a competition and, support you in that way. so, as you mentioned, you were doing pharmacy in, in university, and you eventually made a switch to the sustainability career that you’re in.

00:13:25:05 – 00:13:40:07
Steven Schauer
Tell me a little bit about that transition. How how did you go, you know, were you a practicing pharmacist first and then made the transition, or did you make that transition before you even got, you know, fully engaged in the in the pharmaceutical field?

00:13:40:09 – 00:14:00:21
Louis Chan
yes, I did. Made the transition before I got fully engaged in the pharmacy surgical field, so I did I graduated with a bachelor’s in pharmacy, but I did not. my first job was in sustainability as a consultant. So that was, that’s my career as well. How did I do it? I think is two internships in university and event life in general.

00:14:00:21 – 00:14:32:11
Louis Chan
I like trying out different things. I think that it’s important to take this and learn and see what the world has to offer, because you only live for that amount of time. So let’s try one of the internships to actually expose me to sustainability. More than what I had taught in the past. I used to think that sustainability was, as I said earlier, about the nature of biodiversity, which is great, but I didn’t really see or know about what companies can and should do, about this particular, incident or this particular phenomenon so as to internship to learn more about, sustainability.

00:14:32:11 – 00:14:55:18
Louis Chan
And I felt I was I learned quite fast. I’m a fast learner. And so I was able to get concepts quite quickly. And I did more things of different programs with the WWF, with, you in the United Nations Environment program as well, and a few others. And it firmed up why I chose why I love sustainability and why I felt a meaning or purpose being in this field as compared to pharmacy.

00:14:55:18 – 00:15:11:20
Louis Chan
Not saying that pharmacy is not a good place to be in. Sure, I’m very much needed in this society, especially in Singapore where there’s an aging population, but I think that my calling was more on sustainability, and I’m sure someone else is definitely much better fit for pharmacy anyway. So yeah.

00:15:11:22 – 00:15:25:20
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Was your first internship in the mining industry or what industry were you? Was that first internship with it kind of sparked your interest in in sustainability and learning more about it?

00:15:25:22 – 00:15:30:20
Louis Chan
My first internship in sustainability was in, Deloitte. So it’s a consulting about.

00:15:30:20 – 00:15:37:07
Steven Schauer
Deloitte Treasure big consulting firm. Yes. Yeah. So that’s kind of where you started.

00:15:37:09 – 00:15:55:14
Louis Chan
Go ahead. Yes. Give me the exposure. And I guess and I got to meet a lot of people who are also passionate about, this particular field. So to me that, you know, I think it’s fine to you should not for me personally believe you, that you should not be dragged down by what major you chose, because I think that if you really believe in wherever you want to go, you just go for it.

00:15:55:15 – 00:16:00:12
Louis Chan
I mean, you want to be great for the next 40 years working in the place you don’t belong. So, yeah.

00:16:00:14 – 00:16:22:08
Steven Schauer
Yeah. No, that’s that’s great advice. And we had on several episodes again. And he had similar advice with his career path. And, you know, as you just mentioned, you know, go and go in for just trying, you know, even though you might be educated this direction. But if your passions are pulling you somewhere else to follow your, your passions.

00:16:22:08 – 00:16:36:20
Steven Schauer
So, so is it in Deloitte that then that you started to kind of be exposed to the environment, social governance, the ESG, type of, of tracking is is that correct?

00:16:36:22 – 00:16:54:20
Louis Chan
Yes. It taught me about me, about where can I look for the different sustainability reporting standards and how to apply to help companies? Actually, we bought plus in Singapore, listed companies have to do this mandatory sustainability reporting at that point. I mean, even till today. So yeah.

00:16:54:22 – 00:17:33:18
Steven Schauer
Yeah. And for for folks, who may not be familiar, I’m going to tell you what I think ESG is and other sustainability. And then I’d love for you to educate me and others. But, so the, the, the environment, social governance, the ESG type of, reporting, as I understand it is, is really looking at other metrics beyond just the shareholder value, the financial benefits of a company and your, you know, you might be looking at energy efficiency or greenhouse gas emissions or biodiversity targets, water usage, those types of things in the environmental area.

00:17:33:20 – 00:18:02:01
Steven Schauer
On the social side, you might be looking at, you know, employee, employee compensation, health benefits, you know, training, diversity, equity, inclusion type of things. And on the, on the governance side, you might be looking at, board independence and, you know, board attendance, litigation risks, transparency, things like that. So is my understanding, correct. And, you know, how how does how does this work?

00:18:02:01 – 00:18:08:16
Steven Schauer
I guess just to explain it to folks who might, might not be familiar with these types of reporting procedures?

00:18:08:18 – 00:18:34:06
Louis Chan
Yes, I think understanding is definitely correct. I think I like I like that when you mention about the environmental, you also up biodiversity. I think oftentimes when we hear environment, we just hear about, carbon emissions because it’s much easier to track. And that for biodiversity is so hard to track. There’s no clear. Yeah. Okay. We do I think yes I think I maybe I can add on that actually these see two ways to look at but these are what we call material topics.

00:18:34:08 – 00:19:02:11
Louis Chan
So companies in certain industries have certain material topics that are more important to them or things that they should care more about. Because if it’s a topic that you don’t have any influence over and there’s no point to actually correct it, and we all understand it, companies have different or limited resources. So there’s actually two forms of materiality, one of which is impact materiality, which I think is what you’re also mentioning, which is basically the impact that a company does on to the environment or to the planet onto society.

00:19:02:13 – 00:19:25:21
Louis Chan
So these external and the key reporting framework for this is the Griffin Global Reporting Initiative. I think another another sort of materiality dimension is what we call financial materiality. So it’s basically how do those factors actually affect the company and therefore shareholder value. Because I know we all see in sustainability that shareholders should not be the key focus and it should be stakeholders.

00:19:25:23 – 00:19:51:07
Louis Chan
But when you actually implement particularly it has to also influence shareholders. They have to be buying by the shareholders. Sure. Shareholders should be exposed on what factors. How can this actually affect them. For example, I think you mentioned something about litigation this. So maybe if a company has an environmental impact which affects the company’s reputation or actually, affects it because what more countries are actually pricing in carbon these days.

00:19:51:09 – 00:20:14:00
Louis Chan
So if you’re pricing carbon through your financial statements, you will affect the valuation, even the shareholders value. And therefore shareholders are forced to actually consider these topics. So that is more of a financial materiality. So there are these two forms of materiality. The the gold standard. In my opinion, it’s what we call double materiality, which is to consider both and how they influence and affect one another.

00:20:14:02 – 00:20:29:11
Louis Chan
Only then. Then we can have a a good framework to help companies. But I had to say, I think most regions do not actually, require double materiality, but I believe that eventually will be a requirement in most legislation.

00:20:29:13 – 00:21:02:22
Steven Schauer
I appreciate clarifying that and explaining it in a way that that, a novice like me and probably other members of the audience can understand so that this is, you know, I was really excited to bring you on because of your expertise. And this is such an important aspect of sustainability. you know, obviously, we we talk a lot like you mentioned about, you know, climate change and carbon issues and getting to net zero and some of those things I think are beginning to be understood by the public a little bit more.

00:21:03:00 – 00:21:33:14
Steven Schauer
but this financial side of it, you know, sometimes is a mystery to, to novices because it’s it sounds so complicated. And we need, you know, good folks like you doing that work to, to help. And I also appreciate you mentioning that, you know, it’s really a balance, as I interpreted what you said, this, you know, the triple bottom line of, you know, planet and people and profit has to be balanced because there does need to be a profit for the shareholders in this.

00:21:33:14 – 00:21:58:23
Steven Schauer
Otherwise they’re going to lose interest or try to go to a different direction in order to to keep that profit margin. So I think what I understood you to say is that that that’s the that’s kind of the sweet spot is how do you balance all of these things so that businesses are making good decisions that are healthy for the planet and healthy for society, but also make money because that’s not a bad thing to make money.

00:21:58:23 – 00:22:06:08
Steven Schauer
So is that kind of that that balance is what you’re trying to help companies find. Is that what is that what your goal is?

00:22:06:10 – 00:22:28:08
Louis Chan
Yes, because I think that eventually whenever if we work in a company, but you have to always get stakeholder management by. And so it cost savings is obviously the key priority, for all these companies as well. And this in my opinion, I think those companies who are willing to sacrifice a bit of profit or revenue are those bigger masses, but they have enough bandwidth to actually sacrifice one area over the other.

00:22:28:10 – 00:22:51:15
Louis Chan
I want to mention something about balance. I think that beyond just, planet people. And I think what is important is even in the ESG itself, the term using ESG has to also be a balance, because oftentimes whenever I’ve articles or see companies report to me talk about the improvement in the the environmental side of things, but they did not mention about the drawbacks they did to the social element side of things as well.

00:22:51:17 – 00:23:17:18
Louis Chan
I mean, the in the mining space, we can clearly just reduce the emissions by shutting down the mines or whatever, by the social equity. When it comes to the, the miners life, the miners life, whereby the whole family actually depends on the miners actually be greatly affected. So I sure that more companies who actually report more transparently on how ESG as a whole is being affected by their actions and not just glamorize, the improvement in one certain aspect.

00:23:17:23 – 00:23:19:22
Louis Chan
So, yeah.

00:23:20:00 – 00:23:52:13
Steven Schauer
So you, let me transition into mining a little bit because it is such an important industry. We we do need it. And certainly for, you know, if we’re going to be moving our world away from fossil fuels in a sense, and moving towards more battery and electricity, you know, batteries are heavily dependent upon, you know, the materials of the world that we need to mine to get to those materials in order to create the batteries, we need to get away from oil and gas and other, you know, carbon emitting.

00:23:52:13 – 00:24:05:11
Steven Schauer
So how did you get into that field? How did you move from Deloitte in transition your career to to eventually get into the the mining industry? That sounds like a an interesting story to me.

00:24:05:13 – 00:24:32:13
Louis Chan
I think. I think for me, I was in the like, I had exposure to different sectors as well and different functions and how to help different companies or clients. Events over healthcare, even data centers, telecommunications, etc. so I was open to any sector, but I did not work on any mining projects also because I mean Singapore, Singapore. I don’t think there’s any mines here that most of them are in Canada, US, or even in, Australia, which is where the mines are based.

00:24:32:15 – 00:24:49:00
Louis Chan
So how do I how do I transition? I think about someone who just reach out and say that, you know, this, mining, there’s this, unique opportunity whereby it’s an investment firm and they are doing in the mining space. It’s a pretty unique space for someone who is in Singapore. So go and check it out. I think that I check it out.

00:24:49:00 – 00:25:03:22
Louis Chan
I thought it was quite interesting. I wanted to be in a, what we call a hot to a bit sector to actually, so that we can have most impact, because for my personal opinion is that it is not. I do not want to be in a space that is already so green in a sense, because I would not have much material impact to them.

00:25:03:22 – 00:25:15:01
Louis Chan
I may improve by 100%, but it is not significant as compared to in mining. Even if it’s one 2% improvements in the emission intensity. I think that’s quite a big deal from an investment environment.

00:25:15:03 – 00:25:15:13
Steven Schauer
You.

00:25:15:15 – 00:25:35:01
Louis Chan
So I say yes to and that’s how I translate here. But luckily a lot of skills that I learned in, Deloitte and also in other places and a lot of courses that I took definitely helped in me being extremely well equipped for this role. I mean, the only thing that I, of course, had to only learn on the job was the mining techniques.

00:25:35:03 – 00:25:48:08
Louis Chan
But the sustainability side, I think I was more or less there. That being said, I always did the first thing in the morning about the data sustainability happening, so that is quite a good habit I think I recommend. So yeah, that’s how I got into mining and investments.

00:25:48:08 – 00:26:08:10
Steven Schauer
Yes. What what are some of your morning reading resources. So if, if folks listening to this are watching to this, you know, would would like to follow your good, good habits of, you know, staying up to speed on all the latest information, where, where do you get your sustainability information from?

00:26:08:12 – 00:26:27:18
Louis Chan
So I think a few places, I think one of them, which I found, which I find quite useful, is, a slack channel called Work on Climate. So basically it’s a community by different people, chat about sustainability happenings. And some of them are job seekers, some of them are investors or whatever. entrepreneurs, I think, get to see the whole, sphere.

00:26:28:00 – 00:26:47:18
Louis Chan
And most of them are not in Asia. So I think that gives me a different perspective as well. On what is it out of Asia? I also have different news articles online. Wall Street Journal, I think that is a good source for me. There’s a green or sustainability section in Washi China this way, without specifically I do also the others and this in Singapore.

00:26:47:20 – 00:27:10:02
Louis Chan
But what I do is basically to just search, for example, sustainable finance news, and then I will go to Google and I will make the outwardly to be past 24 hours. For that. I get to see what has happened in the past 24 hours. And because my mines are in, Australia. So then I think it’s important to keep to be keep aware about the energy transition or energy mix in Australia.

00:27:10:04 – 00:27:28:08
Louis Chan
And that not only involves about what kind of energy is being used in Australia, but also the geopolitics that is happening, because I think in most part of the world, including Australia, is the election season this year or next year. So, how do the opposition, for example, actually propose? So the forms of energy and weather, is it feasible?

00:27:28:09 – 00:27:54:14
Louis Chan
Because if it’s feasible and if it’s completely different for what the country has traditionally planned, how would it influence the mining operation? So for example, I think the as of this recording, the opposition mentioned something about, having nuclear, but Australia traditionally was against nuclear, or at least in a law that a nuclear is not, recommended. So how will this actually affect and what this opposition we know the sort of things that I would consider in the morning, I think.

00:27:54:14 – 00:27:58:03
Louis Chan
Give me a little give me away. Yes. Yeah.

00:27:58:05 – 00:28:18:18
Steven Schauer
At night I’ve got a few weekly newsletters that I subscribe to. So I, I do my reading on, kind of on the weekends on a weekly basis, summing up everything that I’ve seen as opposed to a daily basis. But I think it’s really important. However, it works for you as an individual to stay informed and stay educated.

00:28:18:18 – 00:28:48:14
Steven Schauer
There’s so much information happening, some of it really fascinating and interesting and positive and some of it, as I’m sure audiences where’s is not great, you know, and and it’s important to stay up to speed on all of that. You mentioned, geopolitical issues given your work is, is, you know, multinational with how you run your, investments in different countries.

00:28:48:16 – 00:29:39:08
Steven Schauer
I’m curious. here in the United States, as we’re in election season in the last year or so, there’s been a really big, blowback by the, conservatives folks, more on the right side of the political, spectrum against, these types of, sustainability measurements and metrics in business, you know, ESG measurements and, diversity, equity, inclusion measurements, these types of things have really there’s been a very active, push by the many Republicans here in the United States to do away with those or minimize those or, generally, you know, push back on those types of measurements.

00:29:39:10 – 00:30:09:15
Steven Schauer
How how are you seeing, that play out in the rest of the world? Is there a similar pushback on these types of sustainability metrics? and, and how is that impacting your work in seeing, at least here in the state, such a blowback? But if it’s happening in other places, I know in Europe as well, there’s, you know, kind of a, hard line push, from the right to, to minimize some of these, advances that have been made.

00:30:09:15 – 00:30:21:04
Steven Schauer
So what what’s your experience saying about global politics in the, either advancing of these types of measurements or the the pushback against them?

00:30:21:06 – 00:30:40:08
Louis Chan
thank you for the question. I think, in Singapore, at least on Asian, actually, the Asian or Southeast Asian region, sustainability was a pretty decent phenomenon as compared to, let’s say, in Europe or even in the US. So I think that we have not reached a stage where there’s huge, debate between both sides on whether they are for or against climate change or climate action.

00:30:40:08 – 00:31:18:12
Louis Chan
So I think it’s definitely, not as divisive as compared to the US, even in Australia. I think that, generally, for my sentiment, I do not travel down there often, but based on my sentiments, is that they’re generally supportive of the climate, action climate regulations as being made in Australia, also because the government has different initiative or regulations, for example, renewable energy targets or in, what they call set up mechanism whereby the limit or the require certain polluters to actually reduce their carbon intensity by 4.97 on a yearly basis.

00:31:18:14 – 00:31:22:19
Louis Chan
So I think that, yeah. So let me finding some more.

00:31:22:21 – 00:31:24:00
Steven Schauer
Okay.

00:31:24:02 – 00:31:28:02
Louis Chan
Yeah. So,

00:31:28:04 – 00:31:33:14
Steven Schauer
Go go ahead. I was I didn’t mean to interrupt you. Yeah.

00:31:33:16 – 00:31:50:09
Louis Chan
I was going to say that, like, in the US, I think that maybe one reason why there was, is that, Division. I’m not from the US and have not been much exposed to us. I think it’s because of the link between sustainability or climate change. You know what culture? Maybe it’s how it was being portrayed in the initial.

00:31:50:10 – 00:32:13:05
Louis Chan
So by people had the impression that it’s going to cost them a lot, or the waste and policies are being done. Because I think you mentioned about DNI, and I’m a huge proponent on how bought and how companies should have diverse employees of different backgrounds and everything, but maybe it’s the way they buy. They say that there’s a huge focus on gender representation, whereby companies must have a certain percentage by is female.

00:32:13:07 – 00:32:39:14
Louis Chan
Maybe it’s not what it is, but how they actually presented it, because I guess my thing is that there is some pushback of individuals. But how event and I, I think it’s more important to actually consider beyond just the gender, but also maybe the background, the socio economic background or the, educational background. But I also understand why gender is the first thing that is being considered, because it’s quite easy to implement, and I think there are some positive benefits of doing so.

00:32:39:14 – 00:32:58:13
Louis Chan
But maybe it’s the framing that can be improved. And I also think maybe in certain parts of the world it’s because it’s become it becomes a political issue. So a certain party mechanism to gain more credibility or get more votes. So that’s why the yeah get is just increasing. But always unfortunate I think hope is not lost.

00:32:58:13 – 00:33:19:16
Louis Chan
I think us is doing at least if the current party is doing quite well with a lot of with the Inflation Reduction Act, especially giving grants, giving tax credits that enables more startups or more firms to actually do things which may not be commercially profitable initially, because there has to be a gap that has to be filled by government, grants, you know?

00:33:19:17 – 00:33:24:20
Louis Chan
So, and good to see what is happening, but I think more can be done by, it’s good for now.

00:33:24:22 – 00:33:53:10
Steven Schauer
Yeah. I appreciate your your insight, and I agree, I think some of the political challenges that we have here in, in the States is about, in some part about framing, sustainability is often framed as a, as an either or. Either you save the planet and do socially good, and then you go broke doing it, or you make all the money you can make and and you don’t worry about those other issues.

00:33:53:10 – 00:34:23:11
Steven Schauer
It is, you know, our our political system is often, you know, this either or choice. And going back to your earlier comments about no you you can you can do sustainable things and make a profit at the same time. I think our politics here in this country, are really don’t allow that type of messaging because you know, though, somebody has, you know, politically you have to have kind of somebody to, to fight against.

00:34:23:11 – 00:34:54:07
Steven Schauer
So they, you know, they, they, they formulate these arguments that aren’t necessarily based in reality that we can do both. We can protect the planet, advance, you know, social equity and, make profit for, for shareholders. So I appreciate your insight around that. let me I want to give you a chance. Also, you mentioned, transition away from some of the GOP politics and getting back into your career path.

00:34:54:09 – 00:35:15:18
Steven Schauer
We want to make sure we we bring up, the Arctic Glide Company. You had mentioned that that’s, a, air conditioning space that you’re working in. Tell us a little bit about what that company does and what you’re hoping to accomplish. I want to make sure to give you time to promote that, activity as well, that you’re doing.

00:35:15:20 – 00:35:40:21
Louis Chan
Thank you. So, this, I think, like, basically came, all the co-founders actually came up with a decoy technology which is being used in air conditioning. So in Singapore, it’s, it’s a tropical in the summer, every day in the year, it’s actually humid. And that’s why a lot of people actually use air conditioning. I think while air conditioning contribute significantly to carbon emissions and electricity consumption, it’s not possible to tell everyone to just stop using it.

00:35:40:23 – 00:36:12:13
Louis Chan
So then the solution for that, we realized, was actually, what if there was a way to actually reduce the electricity consumption needed, by air conditioning? And so, what the co-founder, the CTO actually came up with, this whole technology whereby if we, change the design of the icon fitting and piping and put this coin inside, basically we use what we call conventional carbon system and what is also known as passive displacement cooling to actually, reduces or remove the need for a fan.

00:36:12:15 – 00:36:16:14
Louis Chan
So you should get air conditioning is always a fan inside there, but it blows the code out.

00:36:16:14 – 00:36:17:12
Steven Schauer
Sure.

00:36:17:14 – 00:36:38:04
Louis Chan
How the technology. There is a way to actually, push the cool air down to, dock or to a pipe, and then it will actually rise up naturally as a human body. Why? Because human is obviously hotter than the cold air. So is the become popular and therefore invites us. So that is a limited way of explaining it.

00:36:38:06 – 00:36:59:00
Louis Chan
Yeah. Basically we realized and calculated that there is a cost, electricity saving of 30% if we use, this technology, of course. I mean, it is, if you ask me, is it going to be cheaper or much cheaper than traditional air conditioning? I think it’s not going to be, but long term, over a 15 year lifecycle, cost calculation is actually disagreeable.

00:36:59:01 – 00:37:13:20
Louis Chan
There’s actually a lot of savings. If a payback period of about four years only so long term it will save immediately. You won’t, obviously, but I believe the most economical has for 15 years. So it makes financial sense as well. Yes. Yeah. Thank you.

00:37:13:22 – 00:37:37:12
Steven Schauer
a fantastic idea technology wise. I mean, I think, you know, some of what’s going to kind of help us get out of the climate mess that we’re in is is obviously advancing technologies and, and things that we can do smarter and more efficient and more effectively. What a what a great idea. I just think cool air drops and, warm air rises.

00:37:37:12 – 00:38:03:10
Steven Schauer
So what a what a great, concept there to to you know, get that type of technology into such an important, thing that we need, right? We need air conditioning. And particularly in major urban areas that are getting hotter and hotter as our temperatures around the globe are rising. you also touched on something, I think, there in that story that I want to dig a little deeper on in.

00:38:03:12 – 00:38:34:03
Steven Schauer
So I think this is important in many different aspects of sustainable technology, is looking at the life of the product, because the cost savings at the beginning might not be apparent. but if you look at, the life cycle of a particular product in that I think is a concept that’s really important. But, you know, people don’t always grasp that because we’re looking for that immediate savings or that immediate benefit.

00:38:34:05 – 00:39:00:16
Steven Schauer
so how do you how do you market the product or how do you, educate the public to, to get people to start thinking longer scale about, you know, things like your air conditioning technology or solar technology or other things that you might not see the immediate cost benefit from. But over the life cycle of that product, you’ll you’ll get more benefit than, than the current technology.

00:39:00:16 – 00:39:08:01
Steven Schauer
So what’s your insights around how to get people to think differently? think long term instead of short term?

00:39:08:03 – 00:39:35:02
Louis Chan
Thank you. Yes, I think I don’t have the perfect answer for that. But what I do whenever I get into conversations is to actually do estate developers or maybe to, mechanical engineering consultants to actually ask them, you know, what are their pain points? And often their pain points is about, energy saving or electricity savings. And luckily in Singapore, there’s also an increasing push for sustainability whereby buildings have to be have to get a sense of waiting, green map so that if not, I think they can be built.

00:39:35:04 – 00:39:53:10
Louis Chan
So therefore, there’s all these push to mix conversations with developers much easier. And I think that it also happens to be the, in this case of USD in construction, most of the consumers or customers actually think long term because they’ll have a building for a long time to actually build the building to be demolished in ten years, maybe for over a hundred years, for example.

00:39:53:10 – 00:40:15:05
Louis Chan
So that makes the conversation actually easier. with them as well. I mean, I’ve also realized that maybe initially when I was in you need it. I think that conversations maybe a bit too idealistic to think of just pushing or to persuade people through the act of climate change by just telling them that, you know, you need to save the planet, if not the sea level rise or whatever, because they may not actually feel it.

00:40:15:07 – 00:40:38:13
Louis Chan
And especially in Singapore, whereby we are quite sheltered, so we do not have hurricanes or typhoons, so we don’t actually see the impact. So it’s harder to convince them even from an emotional point of view. But is sure Singapore is generally actually more practical. So the financial element has to come in as well. Of course, we do look at also different business models, and we do experiment with different schemes.

00:40:38:15 – 00:40:59:05
Louis Chan
For instance, sometimes we issue research that can be is a suggestion to, people who are listening. This is what we use as well. We quite as a software as a service or cooling as a service by people do not actually have to pay upfront for particular equipment, but they can pay for every for, for whatever savings to actually get.

00:40:59:07 – 00:41:22:08
Louis Chan
Okay, then pay a premium or revenue to this particular technology. So by doing that, I think it reduces the pain from a bias perspective, but they will only have to pay when they see it also makes sense. But of course this does not mean that idea, because a lot of things to consider whether the company is able to have the initial capital to actually get all your payments and everything.

00:41:22:08 – 00:41:24:18
Louis Chan
But these are just some ways.

00:41:24:20 – 00:42:00:09
Steven Schauer
Yeah, I like that. And I think I heard, I heard in your answer a few things that are important. One, it sounds like there’s some some need. And you mentioned here, in the States as well with some of the recent legislations that’s been passed. But there’s and, and one tool is, is government regulation. It sounds like in Singapore there’s, there is certain standards that have been established for new buildings and, you know, industries to, to hit the targets established via government regulation.

00:42:00:09 – 00:42:27:20
Steven Schauer
And then there’s also then the innovative side of, the marketplace. and so, you know, how can you innovate and find the technology and then, you know, market that through different, you know, mechanisms and schemes such as, you know, paying when you save. I mean, that’s a that’s a fascinating type of, tool as well. If a business can absorb that, as you said, that that initial financial, impact.

00:42:27:20 – 00:42:53:08
Steven Schauer
So is that in my interpreting you correctly, that there’s kind of a need for both some governments to set some standards so that the industries know the targets to hit, but then the industry itself can, become innovative and do what you know, so great about capitalism is that it can find the new ways quicker and faster and, and, hopefully more efficient.

00:42:53:10 – 00:43:07:11
Steven Schauer
then then just government oversight can provide. So is that kind of what I’m getting from you as far as that? We need a little bit of both government regulation as well as the entrepreneurial, innovative spirit of of business.

00:43:07:13 – 00:43:36:17
Louis Chan
Yes, I think that’s definitely correct. And just to add on to that, besides, enforcing from a governmental point of view, I think it also be good if society or even government can actually promote innovation, because I think that it’s my understanding in Asia people are generally more conservative. But if there’s a lot but I think I’m getting an increasing sense that there’s more accelerators or incubators that’s being created in the Asia region, which is good because it shows that, money and for input to look together different people who have different ideas.

00:43:36:19 – 00:44:00:16
Louis Chan
But obviously no one has a complete, full set of skills that can scale up a business, but by having accelerators for them. So I think that it brings people with complementary skill sets together to solve a problem that they both or everyone cares about, and that can create more innovation. So basically the point I wanted to share is to create an environment whereby, such innovations can be culture and also maybe instill the mindset that it’s okay to fail.

00:44:00:19 – 00:44:17:05
Louis Chan
I think it is. It is a bit idealistic to think that although not want to fail, I think that if you for me at least, every failure is a step forward still and there’s something you can learn. Maybe time is wasted, maybe time is not wasted. But there’s always things to learn. To an extent. I don’t really believe that people can succeed the first time anyways.

00:44:17:07 – 00:44:18:10
Louis Chan
Yeah.

00:44:18:12 – 00:44:27:03
Steven Schauer
Sure, that failure is part of the process. I appreciate that perspective as well. I mean, we, if you’re if you’re not failing, you’re probably not trying.

00:44:27:05 – 00:44:29:21
Louis Chan
Yeah. Okay.

00:44:29:23 – 00:45:13:18
Steven Schauer
so let me ask when, kind of changing subjects again a little bit on on you, but tapping back into your expertise in sustainable investing and, you know, the, the idea of businesses, maybe, being a little, exaggerating their sustainable footprint, you know, greenwashing, in that area is becoming a more and more, well known, problem that, you know, businesses might do a great job marketing about how green they are or, you know, whatever buzzword that they’re using on their products.

00:45:13:18 – 00:45:50:17
Steven Schauer
But if you dig deeper into the business practices, you might find out that they’re not very sustainable at all. So what is your advice for, just an average consumer? how do we know how to where can we find information, or how can someone, really learn if a company that they wanted to buy a product from, is, you know, is following some of these ESG metrics or, you know, doing the best that they can do to make a profit, but also be, sustainable as well.

00:45:50:17 – 00:45:57:04
Steven Schauer
So how can we how can we come back? Greenwashing, I guess, is the question.

00:45:57:06 – 00:46:18:14
Louis Chan
Thank you for that question. Yes. I think that, greenwashing phenomenon has actually seen an increase. But I think that with more regulations nowadays, I think there is at least a decrease of what I’m sensing. For example, even in the fund space, I think that there was a EU taxonomy whereby the European Union actually declared on some metrics they needed to consider a fund dividend in in two different articles as well.

00:46:18:16 – 00:46:39:14
Louis Chan
That’s basically humor. from a retail perspective, how do we know or how can we be more astute when it comes to such claims? I think the first is the easiest, which is basically look at the product, look at the advertisement. If it’s obviously just green stuff, and by the use imagery of forest, by the, the, by the company has nothing to do with forest at all.

00:46:39:16 – 00:47:04:05
Louis Chan
It’s a huge flag to me because it shows that they are trying to just, deceive the general audience by pretending that everything is green. For example, there was some, advertisement thing about banks. I’m not obviously any names, but it basically was just green and then there was no. And it put some claims about net zero by then, or they have stopped financing a certain coal company, but actually behind the scenes, some of their funds are actually still financing coal.

00:47:04:07 – 00:47:26:22
Louis Chan
I mean, it’s a huge tax to me. If I see those are the most I will suspect these firms more then general firms, which just use normal content like or any other color. So that’s number one. I think number two is to then check the claims, because it’s important to know that certain claims can be deceived. Now, those claims does not have to be lies, because those claims could be just part of a wider set of data.

00:47:27:00 – 00:47:55:22
Louis Chan
But just pick certain form of information. So if it’s me and if I’m at a time, I’ll look into whether those things are actually true. But is it true that you have invested 50 billion in carbon credits for a particular area, and where have those funding actually been to? I think it’s a check. The information. I mean, nowadays with Google and Yahoo and everything, the the so much information out there, you can just set up such a companies, sustainability reports as well, and you can actually see and find out what’s actually there.

00:47:56:00 – 00:48:15:14
Louis Chan
It’s number two I think number three, what I would also do is to then, look at the history of a particular company. If a company has traditionally done some form of greenwashing, I think you could be more skeptical about that. That’s not being said that a company can never change. I think companies should and should change, but I guess there is some form of things I have to consider as well.

00:48:15:16 – 00:48:37:03
Louis Chan
The last thing I wanted to share is that I think it’s to just give a chance to companies, because some companies, maybe the marketing professionals or communications professionals, might not be trained in sustainability, or they just have a marketing lens to everything. And that’s why there’s some, what, some disease, being shown by I think is not to just criticize, but to also maybe inform them.

00:48:37:03 – 00:49:04:03
Louis Chan
Maybe a lot of companies have their contact Us page on their website anyway and just let them know, you know, that is this truly what you claim and is there any implication, do you want to reconsider this? And I think with the mindset, it makes companies less fearful of sharing their green initiatives because besides greenwashing, there’s also I think all of us know about green hashing, whereby companies just hide behind and not claim anything because they fear that if they claim something, some green activists will just come after them.

00:49:04:04 – 00:49:14:08
Louis Chan
So I don’t want that to happen as well. So it’s hard to strike a balance. But I think as long as we go in to a conversation with that balance in mind, then I think that it’s a good step forward.

00:49:14:10 – 00:49:35:09
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Thank you for bringing up the green hashing as well, that that idea that companies are afraid to share what they’re doing because of the, the, the fear of backlash or what may happen. So thank you for bringing up that perspective. from your, you know, obviously being more on the business side, that that’s something that a consumer might not be aware of.

00:49:35:09 – 00:49:56:15
Steven Schauer
So thank you for sharing that. So, Louis, I want to give you an opportunity here as we’re getting kind of, you know, near near the end of the interview. Thank you again so much for your time and your expertise and, explaining everything that you’ve, that you’ve shared with us today. It’s been really helpful to me, I hope, for the audience as well.

00:49:56:17 – 00:50:14:07
Steven Schauer
for now is your time to kind of plug whatever, you know, your own businesses or how can people get in touch with you? What’s your call to action? What would you want? You know, people who are listening to this or watching this, what what do you want them to do? What’s your what’s your call to action for the for the world watching this.

00:50:14:09 – 00:50:32:01
Louis Chan
Thank you. I think call to action to me is something I’ve also been doing is basically to, you know, all of us meeting that being sustainable of making a positive impact is actually very difficult and it does not affect us. But I think we can see or we should be exposed to what climate change can actually do. And I think that let’s look at past data.

00:50:32:01 – 00:50:50:21
Louis Chan
There’s a lot of data which I can obviously share offline as well. That can actually shows that the link between human actions or the huge growth in human population, and the link with carbon dioxide, which is a greenhouse gas, what we can do does not have to be very major if we do not work in a space that allows us to positively contribute that much.

00:50:50:23 – 00:51:12:12
Louis Chan
You can just do a few things. For example, number one, do a baseline. baseline counting of one’s own action, basically looking at what is the small things that we do that we can actually change. You don’t have to change everything at one go. For example, maybe, when we have takeaways, we do not bring our own boxes of food, or we can have what we call our meat free Mondays, meat free Mondays, for example.

00:51:12:12 – 00:51:32:10
Louis Chan
So, yeah, you can think of these these are small things that we can do. And I think that we should do things, for the first step, we should do things which we are comfortable about first. And by transiting that, we I think eventually we do more and more sustainable stuff and changing our lifestyle. And you realize that a lot of these lifestyle changes can actually have cost savings as well.

00:51:32:12 – 00:51:51:06
Louis Chan
there’s a another episode, but yeah, just what we can do on the end. I think also in the point about companies like these earlier, you know, we may be in different jobs. I mean, not all companies have a sustainability role. Not all companies may say that they care about sustainability, but regardless of what functions we are in, I firmly believe that we can actually do our part.

00:51:51:08 – 00:52:09:16
Louis Chan
We can actually look at our job scope and see how can it be more sustainable. What can we do? Let’s say even from a communications angle, how can we communicate in a more clear way the actually faces of certain sustainability elements as well. So my view is that every job can and should be a green job. So there is, a view that I always have.

00:52:09:16 – 00:52:21:16
Louis Chan
And I think that there is a view that, you can consider too, as well. And I mean, if anyone wants to contact me for further clarifications, I’m always available on LinkedIn in my own website as well, and happy to chat as well.

00:52:21:18 – 00:52:48:08
Steven Schauer
Fantastic. And I’ll put your LinkedIn and your personal, website, which is really nice, by the way. I’ll put those, in the show notes. So if anybody does want to contact you, they can they can get those, links from our the show notes page of the podcast. So, thank you for those called actions. I like the this, you know, the kind of those that self appraisal and small actions, matter.

00:52:48:10 – 00:53:19:10
Steven Schauer
so I appreciate, that idea and, and certainly being, as a communicator most of my professional career. I appreciate your kind of business perspective. Their businesses need to continue to improve and clarify their communications and be more transparent and help tell that story. in a more, transparent way that citizens can understand. So I appreciate both your call to actions to individuals as well as the corporations.

00:53:19:12 – 00:53:54:00
Steven Schauer
I guess we’re at the part of the program where I ask people about their hopes for the future. so, you know, when talking about these sustainability topics, they’re they’re sometimes hard and there’s some really, challenging, you know, times ahead of us, with, with regards to a warming climate. so hope is this idea that there’s a vision for a better future and that we have some ability to take steps towards that better future.

00:53:54:00 – 00:54:14:23
Steven Schauer
So, I’m going to ask you three questions and just kind of give me your your first answer is kind of a rapid fire thing. because I want to know what what makes you, hopeful? so the first question is, what’s your vision for a better future? And it can be for you personally or professionally or for the world.

00:54:14:23 – 00:54:18:08
Steven Schauer
What? What’s your vision for a better future?

00:54:18:10 – 00:54:30:12
Louis Chan
I think my vision for the better future is that by business, incentives and drivers actually aligned with sustainability, whereby there is a clear intersection between both of them and they both can go hand in hand.

00:54:30:14 – 00:54:37:02
Steven Schauer
Now second question is why help us understand why that’s your vision for a better future?

00:54:37:04 – 00:54:55:19
Louis Chan
I think after all, my opinion is that, capital is a huge driver of growth, and if you do not get businesses on board, then there’s no way anything’s going to progress forward. And businesses have a lot of capital. So, we just need to get their buy in. And how do you get a buy in is to individual actions and especially about governmental, regulations itself.

00:54:55:21 – 00:55:18:19
Steven Schauer
Fantastic. So the last question is imagine a future where what you hope to be is reality, where we’re now living in the future, where where businesses are aligned with, sustainable goals and making profits. And, how does that make you feel now that we’re living in that future vision.

00:55:18:21 – 00:55:33:00
Louis Chan
I think is just alive? I think I get to be in a place to actually belong and that, everything is aligned with me. I mean, that being said, I’m not idealistic in the sense that, believe that there will still be conflict and disagreements, but I think that’s where further things can be more fine tuned. Therefore there can be more progress.

00:55:33:02 – 00:55:37:18
Louis Chan
But that is a huge step forward. I’m looking forward to that day.

00:55:37:19 – 00:56:07:00
Steven Schauer
Nice. Well, Louis, thank you so much. I’m looking forward to that future day to where businesses are more aligned and the conflicts are always going to be there. But I agree with your hope and for a better future that if we if we get there together, we can also face conflicts with more, compassion and, and not necessarily see, you know, us as, at odds all the time.

00:56:07:00 – 00:56:27:13
Steven Schauer
So I appreciate your vision for the future. And I’m going to do my little piece, to help you get there and help us get there. So thank you so much for for joining me today and sharing your, your expertise and, very appreciated. And I’ve learned a lot today, and I’m sure the audience has as well. So, with that, I wish you well, Louis.

00:56:27:13 – 00:56:36:01
Steven Schauer
And, I will stay in touch and follow your career as it goes. And look forward to your first, white tie fight coming up. Hopefully.

00:56:36:03 – 00:56:39:03
Louis Chan
Thank you so much for having me here.

00:56:39:05 – 00:56:41:06
Steven Schauer
All right. Goodbye.

00:56:41:08 – 00:56:41:20
Louis Chan
Goodbye.

00:56:41:20 – 00:57:06:01
Steven Schauer
That brings us to the end of another enlightening episode of Stories Sustain Us. I want to extend my gratitude to Luis Chan for sharing his incredible journey and wealth of expertise in the field of sustainable finance. His insights on the importance of tracking and measuring impact to drive improvement, and his emphasis on balance and ESG reporting and the triple bottom line are invaluable.

00:57:06:03 – 00:57:30:14
Steven Schauer
And I wish Luis all the best with his Arctic Glide startup. The innovative technology this air conditioner uses highlights Louis’s commitment to practical solutions that benefit both the environment and the economy. Louis vision for a future where business incentives and sustainability are aligned is truly inspiring. It’s a vision of progress and balance, one that we can all strive towards.

00:57:30:16 – 00:57:57:03
Steven Schauer
I also found his tips to be practical takeaways for all of us to consider when combating greenwashing and finding truly sustainable companies to support with our wallets and investments. Look, I really enjoyed this conversation with Louis, particularly around some of the talk and discussion about what’s happening here in the United States with regards to ESG metrics as compared to Southeast Asia.

00:57:57:03 – 00:58:30:02
Steven Schauer
In Australia, where Louis does most of his work. it’s really disappointing to me. It’s not necessarily surprising, but really disappointing to me, nevertheless, that over the last couple of years, there’s been a such a powerful political backlash against ESG, reporting these types of sustainability or environmental, social, governance type reporting. You know, some states have even gone so far as to, to ban this type of reporting in their, state legislatures.

00:58:30:02 – 00:59:01:20
Steven Schauer
And it’s sadly not surprising to me. but also very dangerous and disappointing. Nevertheless, you know, there’s a number of individuals and businesses, leaders and investors who’ve made a considerable amount of money over the last few decades that our economic systems have been really focused on this shareholder first type of system. And, those folks don’t like change.

00:59:01:20 – 00:59:30:16
Steven Schauer
They don’t want change, right? The system’s working well for them and benefiting them and their pocketbooks. immensely. And it’s those business interests that often have a significant hand in helping, elected officials get into office. So it’s not surprising, then, that those elected officials also have a strong dislike, for ESG reporting. You know, they’re supported by the same companies that don’t like ESG reporting.

00:59:30:18 – 01:00:00:11
Steven Schauer
Shocker. So one of the arguments that is often made, by those who are against ESG reporting is that it is, puts at risk shareholder profits. I mean, they’re just making clear, look, they want to continue you with shareholder first economies, which is why they don’t want to look at the environmental, social or governance issues, in a regulatory fashion because it might harm shareholder profits.

01:00:00:13 – 01:00:30:23
Steven Schauer
That’s an old way of thinking. It’s an outward, outdated way of thinking. it’s certainly not visionary. It’s not looking forward. It’s not, looking to see how we can become more sustainable as a society, as as a world. you know, and that’s troubling to me. Yeah, I, I deeply believe that all of our need to move towards a sustainable world hinges largely on this economic piece.

01:00:30:23 – 01:01:03:10
Steven Schauer
If we can’t move away from a shareholder first perspective towards an end to a more balanced, triple bottom line approach for people, planet and profit. Right? Great to make money. But, if you’re making money at the cost of everything else harming people, harming the planet, then that’s not sustainable. So, those who are fighting these ESG metrics, because they want to maintain the status quo of shareholder first, it’s disappointing.

01:01:03:14 – 01:01:32:11
Steven Schauer
And I hope those who, vote pay attention. to what those elected officials are doing and saying in these areas of sustainability might not be top of mind this particular election cycle, but it is certainly important, nevertheless, that you learn what where those who want your vote stand on these, important issues of environmental sustainability and ESG reporting and metrics are part of that and not perfect.

01:01:32:13 – 01:01:57:22
Steven Schauer
but they are moving us towards a more balanced approach to economics that I think is incredibly important if we’re going to live in a sustainable world. And they also help in the realm of greenwashing. I mean, that’s a real thing these days. It’s hard for a consumer to know when a business tells us on their packaging or in their advertising that they’re green, that they’re environmental, that they’re sustainable, they’re they’re doing the right thing.

01:01:58:00 – 01:02:26:23
Steven Schauer
Advertising, is is not always telling us what’s actually happening with these products. And it’s it’s interesting. Right? We live in this world or macroeconomic theory talks about the free flowing of information between the producer and the consumers so that we can have these markets that function properly. We it’s as a consumer, it’s darn near impossible to find out the truth of what’s actually going on.

01:02:26:23 – 01:03:11:08
Steven Schauer
The producer is always going to have more information about their product than the consumer. So without a reliable, and accurate sense of environmental and social, reporting and governance reporting, this ESG type of, reporting, without that regulatory, mandated in, in place, the consumers are going to have a heck of a hard time ever knowing if a company’s telling the truth about its footprint with regards to sustainability and environmental protections that are in place, we’re not going to know about the externalities that a company is aware of, but they’re passing on to us, the consumer, to deal with.

01:03:11:10 – 01:03:41:13
Steven Schauer
So there are regulations in place that can protect the financial systems, that protect the, shareholder first value. So regulations aren’t necessarily bad. They’re already in place to make sure shareholders are protected financially. I’m just simply suggesting that now is the time that we also implement the regulations that look to protect us from the environmental perspective of businesses and their social impact of businesses as well.

01:03:41:15 – 01:04:07:19
Steven Schauer
And yes, those might impact the shareholder first perspective, but that’s the point. We’re trying to have more balance, not do away with profits, but make sure that the system itself is more balanced so that people planning and profit is all getting looked at within our economic system. So it’s a lot to look at, and I’m sure I’ll have more guests on in the future to talk about these types of issues.

01:04:07:19 – 01:04:32:10
Steven Schauer
But for now, I just thank Louis for the work that he’s doing in Southeast Asia. being on the front lines and particularly in the industry of mining, you know, we need mines, clearly. but helping them become more sustainable and more, environmentally balanced is such a crucial thing. And kudos to Louis for, taking on that work.

01:04:32:12 – 01:04:52:23
Steven Schauer
So please join me in thanking Louis Chan once again, for his time and his insights. And I want to thank you, audience, for tuning in. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please be sure to share it with others. Subscribe to the shows channels. Please, rate the show and leave a review. if you leave a comment, I’m going to respond.

01:04:52:23 – 01:05:11:07
Steven Schauer
So, you know, please get in touch. Let me know what you think of the show. Let me know if you have any guest ideas or, somebody that you’d like me to to interview. I’d appreciate that feedback as well. just as I appreciate all your support for this show. So thank you. Now, next week, on story sustain us.

01:05:11:08 – 01:05:43:19
Steven Schauer
I have a really fun conversation with a former work colleague. This is an old friend who I worked with over 20 years ago. my guest emphasizes the importance of storytelling and finding common ground in bipartisan work as she reflects on the challenges and successes of her advocacy efforts, her successful career in Texas and now in Colorado includes legislative wins promoting dark skies and scenic byways, as well as advancing economic development and workforce housing.

01:05:43:21 – 01:06:08:16
Steven Schauer
So join me on August 13th for an engaging conversation about the importance of balancing sustainability and economic profitability, and the need for a more representative and collaborative political system. The episode will be available wherever you listen to podcasts and at Stories Sustain us dot com. So until next time, I’m Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself. Take care of each other.

01:06:08:18 – 01:06:10:02
Steven Schauer
Take care.

Listen to the podcast or watch the full interview.

Summary

Sarah Tober shares her personal and professional journey, highlighting her work in sustainability and advocacy. She discusses her upbringing in the hill country of Texas, her experiences in college and working in various fields, and her legislative wins in promoting dark skies and scenic byways. Sarah emphasizes the importance of storytelling and finding common ground in bipartisan work. She also reflects on the challenges and successes of her advocacy efforts. Sarah Tober shares her personal and professional journey, from her love for the stars and her work in dark sky preservation to her current role in economic development and workforce housing. She emphasizes the importance of balancing sustainability and economic profitability, and the need for a more representative and collaborative political system. Sarah envisions a future where dark skies are protected and accessible to all, and where people can find purpose and fulfillment in their work. She encourages support for Dark Sky Colorado and invites participation in the La Plata Economic Development Alliance’s leadership summit.

About the Guest

Sarah Tober has built a career in entrepreneurship, communications, and advocacy in a wide array of industries including small business, sustainable building, community development, and environmental stewardship. Achieving an MBA at the University of Texas accelerated Tober’s growth as a leader and solidified her prowess to make systemic changes in equity, equality, and resource access.

Tober’s work has centered around building community resilience, and she is currently addressing the housing crisis in La Plata County and SW Colorado. Additionally, Tober helped the Durango Dark Sky effort as a mentor through DarkSky Colorado and the Colorado Tourism Office, working with Visit Durango and the City of Durango to achieve International Dark Sky Place (IDSP) certification.

In her previous role as president of a 40 year-old-statewide nonprofit, Tober focused on educating the public, strengthening partnerships, and city, county, and statewide advocacy. By passing two bills in the 87th Regular Legislative Session, Tober helped establish the State Scenic Byways Program through Senate Bill 941 and further protecting the Dark Skies with Senate Bill 1090. She recruited 14 board members, fundraised more than $500,000, and created the 1 Million Trees Across Texas initiative.

Always community-minded she has served on various boards and commissions and currently serves on the Durango Creative Economy Commission.

Coming from a long line of farmers, ranchers, and gardeners accounts for her passion in horticulture and led her to become a Master Gardener. Living life outdoors has created a deep appreciation for adventuring and whenever Tober has a free weekend she can be found mountain biking, hiking, skiing, sailing, camping, or homesteading on nearly four acres near the Florida River.

She resides in Durango with husband Bobby, son Wyland, dogs Fiona Apple and Henley, cat Calisto, and their micro-farm of chickens, ducks, and turkeys.

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sarahtober/

Show Notes

La Plata Economic Development Alliance’s 2024 Alliance Summit: https://yeslpc.com/2024-alliance-summit/
Dark Sky Colorado: darkskycolorado.org
DarkSky Colorado on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DarkSkyColorado

Keywords

sustainability, advocacy, dark skies, scenic byways, storytelling, bipartisan, legislative wins, dark sky preservation, economic development, workforce housing, sustainability, political system, collaboration, purpose, hope

Transcript

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:24:08
Steven Schauer
Welcome back to another inspiring episode of Stories Sustain Us, where we explore the incredible journeys and impactful stories of those dedicated to sustainability. I’m your host, Steven Schauer, and today we have a special guest whose path has been as dynamic as it is inspiring. Joining us today is Sarah Tobar. Sarah’s journey has been filled with fascinating twists and turns.

00:00:24:10 – 00:00:55:10
Steven Schauer
Taking her through diverse fields like public relations, golf, historic preservation and small business all along the way. She’s not only built an impressive portfolio, but also achieved significant legislative wins, such as promoting dark skies and scenic byways, which highlight the essential balance between economic benefits and environmental preservation. In this episode, Sarah shares the power of storytelling and the importance of finding common ground, especially in bipartisan work.

00:00:55:12 – 00:01:29:20
Steven Schauer
Her experiences emphasize starting small and building on those successes to achieve larger goals. We’ll hear about her efforts to balance sustainability with economic profitability, and her vision for a more representative and collaborative political system. Let me tell you a bit more about Sarah and then we’ll jump into the interview. Sarah Tobar has built a career in entrepreneurship, communications and advocacy in a wide array of industries including small business, sustainable building, community development, and environmental stewardship.

00:01:29:22 – 00:02:07:07
Steven Schauer
Achieving an MBA at the University of Texas Accelerated Sarah’s growth as a leader and solidified her prowess to make systemic changes, inequity, equality, and resource access. Her work has centered around building community resilience, and Sarah is currently addressing the housing crisis in La Plata County, which is in southwest Colorado. Additionally, Sarah helped the Durango Dark Sky effort as a mentor through dark Sky Colorado and the Colorado Tourism Office, working with Visit Durango in the city of Durango to achieve international dark Sky place certification.

00:02:07:09 – 00:02:33:19
Steven Schauer
In her previous role as president of a statewide nonprofit in Texas, Sarah focused on educating the public, strengthening partnerships in city, county, and statewide advocacy. She was successful in her advocacy work, as evidenced through her efforts to create the 1 Million Trees Across Texas initiative, and by getting two important bipartisan bills passed in the Texas Legislature, which we’re going to talk about in the interview ahead.

00:02:33:21 – 00:02:59:09
Steven Schauer
Coming from a long line of farmers, ranchers and gardeners accounts for Sarah’s passion in horticulture and led her to become a master gardener. Living life outdoors has created a deep appreciation for adventuring, and whenever Sarah has a free weekend, she can be found mountain biking, hiking, skiing, sailing, camping or homesteading on nearly four acres near the Florida River in Colorado.

00:02:59:11 – 00:03:24:15
Steven Schauer
Sarah resides in Durango with her husband Bobby, son Wyland. Dogs Fiona Apple and Henley cat Calisto, and their micro farm of chickens, ducks, and turkeys. I’ve known Sarah for over 20 years and I can say with firsthand experience, Sarah is an incredibly talented professional and a genuinely wonderful human being. So get ready to be inspired and motivated by Sarah Tober’s incredible journey.

00:03:24:17 – 00:03:35:02
Steven Schauer
Let’s dive into an episode filled with insights, passion, and a roadmap to making a difference. Here on story sustain us where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

00:03:35:02 – 00:03:42:14
Steven Schauer
All right Sarah, welcome to Story Sustain Us. Thank you for joining me today. How are you doing?

00:03:42:16 – 00:03:46:15
Sarah Tober
Thank you for having me, Steven. I’m doing great this morning. Yeah.

00:03:46:17 – 00:03:55:23
Steven Schauer
I’m great too. kind of on a similar time line. Or. I’m an hour behind you. You’re in Colorado. Where? Where are you these days?

00:03:56:01 – 00:03:58:00
Sarah Tober
I’m in Durango, Colorado.

00:03:58:01 – 00:04:18:20
Steven Schauer
Right on. So, I was thinking about it before the interview, and as I was kind of just getting, you know, doing a little bit of research to make sure I had some thoughts for you when we’re talking that it’s been 21, 22 years since we’ve worked, on the same team. So, yeah, that.

00:04:19:00 – 00:04:19:21
Sarah Tober
We go way back.

00:04:19:23 – 00:04:29:02
Steven Schauer
It seems like on one hand, like it wasn’t that long ago. And on the other hand, it seems like that was a long time ago. It’s just kind of having a hard time wrap my mind around it.

00:04:29:06 – 00:04:31:10
Sarah Tober
So, yeah, it’s a different person back then.

00:04:31:11 – 00:04:32:11
Steven Schauer
Me too.

00:04:32:13 – 00:04:32:23
Sarah Tober
Yeah.

00:04:33:01 – 00:04:57:16
Steven Schauer
I definitely definitely. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for for joining me today. It’s it’s great to see you and catch up. And you’ve had a lot going on in the last 20 years or so, but let’s, let’s start the conversation going back even even further. tell us, tell me, tell the audience a little bit about who you are and where you grew up and what your life was like as a kid.

00:04:57:16 – 00:05:03:14
Steven Schauer
And how you got to to Durango, Colorado. So what’s your personal story, Sarah?

00:05:03:15 – 00:05:20:06
Sarah Tober
Yeah, my journey has not been a straight line for sure. I’ve got I’ve got some twists and turns in there, but, I grew up in the Hill country of Texas, and, I grew up looking at the looking at the stars in the Milky Way with my dad. and no country.

00:05:20:06 – 00:05:22:15
Steven Schauer
For those who don’t know what that means.

00:05:22:15 – 00:05:44:14
Sarah Tober
North of San Antonio. So north of San Antonio. So in the Birney area, Burke is technically on the Guadalupe River. so I spent a lot of my childhood outdoors. I was homeschooled, for the first, until fourth grade. And then I went to a private Christian school, and then I skipped a grade. And then I ended up in public school at the very end.

00:05:44:14 – 00:06:11:05
Sarah Tober
So I got I got to do all the things and have all of the anxieties from it. But it was it was a fun journey of of education. And then I went to college in San Antonio. UTSA and I, met my husband there, and, he really helped me to learn about sustainability, because he was an architect major.

00:06:11:07 – 00:06:33:12
Sarah Tober
And so I got to learn about design sustainability through him. You know, books like Cradle to Cradle and, concepts like that. And so, you know, our first house had some of that sustainability intertwined with that. We did, you know, bamboo wood floors. And we did. We poured concrete countertops with, recycled glass aggregate and things like that.

00:06:33:12 – 00:06:38:18
Sarah Tober
So my journey in sustainability really started with him. And in college.

00:06:38:19 – 00:06:58:10
Steven Schauer
I don’t sound so going back into your siblings, you know what? What was the, you say, the kind of outdoors life growing up in the Hill country. And for those who don’t know, the Guadalupe River in the hill country, it’s a it’s a beautiful area. Texas. It really is a lovely place, if you know, from my perspective. But yeah.

00:06:58:12 – 00:07:01:04
Steven Schauer
Yeah. So what what was growing up like.

00:07:01:06 – 00:07:32:07
Sarah Tober
Yeah. I mean it was the the world was small, you know. and it was, it was small and like Kacey Musgraves said, it was flat, but, you know, it was it was, it was beautiful. And I grew up with two sisters. and, we had similar experiences as well. and, yeah, we and it’s funny, we we all ended up, ended up having boys, too.

00:07:32:09 – 00:08:06:14
Sarah Tober
growing up with two sisters, we didn’t know what we were getting into with children, but, yeah, we had we we I was very religious. I grew up very religious, very conservative, Christian and, again in college just started kind of opening my mind to the world not being so flat and to. Yeah, there being all kinds of folks in it and, just understanding the need to do what I can to make an impact, so that the generations after us can enjoy this world, too.

00:08:06:19 – 00:08:18:11
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Right on. Right now. So you’re in college. What are you studying? What’s your you know, what’s your kind of journey like there educationally?

00:08:18:13 – 00:08:36:14
Sarah Tober
Yeah. I mean, it’s kind of what led me to working with you. I majored in public relations and I minored in business. And after college, I went on to, I had a stint in golf, of all things, for a year. And then I ended up,

00:08:36:16 – 00:08:44:07
Steven Schauer
What does that mean? You’re playing golf? When you were, you were kind of like, you know, doing PR for golf. What does that mean? You had a stint in golf?

00:08:44:12 – 00:09:02:08
Sarah Tober
Yeah, I was working with the Valero Texas Open, and then I was working with, like, the first tee in San Antonio and. Yeah, that program and then all of the amateur golf tournaments. So, yeah, I was working for a golf organization, a nonprofit that was focused on all of that.

00:09:02:10 – 00:09:05:20
Steven Schauer
Yeah. So I t’s like a youth program, you remember correctly.

00:09:05:20 – 00:09:27:06
Sarah Tober
Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. And, and somewhere in there, I, I joined the, the, if I can remember at the state, Canyon State Natural Area. Government Canyon government Canyon area. Yeah, yeah.

00:09:27:07 – 00:09:28:22
Steven Schauer
State park outside of San Antonio.

00:09:29:03 – 00:09:49:02
Sarah Tober
Yes. Yeah. And so I was on their friends group and, helping them to do PR and then, and then. Yeah, and then I ended up at CP Texas, where I met you, where I worked with you for a couple of years, and, and I stayed in PR for a couple more years after that. And then I just, I needed more.

00:09:49:02 – 00:10:25:00
Sarah Tober
And so I ended up at the Texas Historical Commission, of all places. Yeah, but I got to work in, some of the tour guides that were, created, some of the tourism guides and my most, interesting project there was the African American History and Texas project, where I took on a, a tourism guide that was just it was not complete enough, and it needed more than just, the paper document we needed we needed space to tell all the stories.

00:10:25:02 – 00:10:52:05
Sarah Tober
So we actually did a website to, an interactive website and, you know, wasn’t the most ideal person to lead that project, but I made sure to include a number of folks that, did represent, African-Americans and Texans, black Texans. Yeah. of all types and, make sure that their voices were heard. And, so then after after.

00:10:52:05 – 00:10:57:05
Steven Schauer
I up in Austin, you moved from San Antonio. Austin at that point when you got the Texas Historical Commission?

00:10:57:05 – 00:11:12:07
Sarah Tober
Yeah, that’s right. And I ended up in Austin for 15 years. Majority of my adulthood has been spent there. And, I, I went on to work, I ended up having my own neighborhood grocery store, Sarah’s Texas Pantry.

00:11:12:09 – 00:11:18:20
Steven Schauer
I didn’t know that I knew everything about this story up until this point. So what, you had a grocery store, right?

00:11:18:23 – 00:11:44:13
Sarah Tober
Yeah. You know, this kind of, this kind of love for sustainability, you know, fell into my love for the local food systems and slow food systems and, going to the farmer’s market in Austin and then to the farmers market and how to where I lived. and we had a 1920s Arts and Crafts style house that we were restoring downtown.

00:11:44:15 – 00:12:10:12
Sarah Tober
and I had, you know, been visiting all over the state for the historic commission and seeing all these cute little small grocery stores all over at Main Street America, if you will. So I wanted to to have the same, because we didn’t have a grocery store there, and I wanted to have all Texas sourced products. Yeah. So I had, you know, almost 1200 square feet, downtown.

00:12:10:14 – 00:12:36:13
Sarah Tober
And I did I had everything sourced from Texas, everything from the dog and cat food to the bread, the cheese with meats, the salsas with vegetables, you name it. It was from local farmers to the producers. Ranchers. Right on. So it was an amazing part of the journey. It was, it was around 2010. So the effects of the recession were still being felt.

00:12:36:13 – 00:12:43:11
Sarah Tober
So. Yeah. Yeah, I was a little bit, naive and optimistic, maybe. But,

00:12:43:13 – 00:12:46:20
Steven Schauer
entrepreneurs have to be that at least the domestic part.

00:12:46:22 – 00:13:11:12
Sarah Tober
They do. Yeah, exactly. So after a couple of years, I ended up having to shutter it. sold off parts of it, but, and then we ended up moving into Austin proper, and, through that part, I yeah, I learned so much, you know, running my own store and, being a part of that local food ecosystem.

00:13:11:12 – 00:13:43:10
Sarah Tober
And it was an incredible experience. and but moving into Austin was its own fun experience to, to relive another part of my youth, especially before having a kids, and and just at the same time, I worked for, student housing developer for a little stand, and then I, went on to work for small business as, in advocacy at the Capitol.

00:13:43:10 – 00:13:54:03
Sarah Tober
So I spent a decade in advocacy. Yeah. at the state Capitol. I was not a lobbyist. I was never a, quote unquote lobbyist. Yeah.

00:13:54:03 – 00:13:55:05
Steven Schauer
Never heard about that.

00:13:55:05 – 00:14:17:01
Sarah Tober
Yeah, exactly. But I did a lot of grassroots advocacy. So communications, education, outreach. and so for a few years, I spent it, for small business, which I obviously had that experience of. And. Yeah. and then I got my MBA from UT, and, very, very proud Longhorn now.

00:14:17:03 – 00:14:20:05
Steven Schauer
Yeah, I got my master’s from UT also.

00:14:20:09 – 00:14:37:16
Sarah Tober
That’s right, that’s right. And, and then I went on, because I wanted to be in leadership, I knew I wanted to be in leadership, and I knew I didn’t need my MBA to be in leadership. I but I wanted to be the best version of a leader I could be. I felt like that was a part of it.

00:14:37:21 – 00:15:09:02
Sarah Tober
Yeah. So, so yeah, after, I graduated in 2018, that’s when I had my son Weiland to I and, more, more life changing events. And, then I went to work as an executive director for a statewide nonprofit that was focused on the visual environment, and they primarily focused on minimizing, mitigating, billboards, and especially digital billboards.

00:15:09:04 – 00:15:39:01
Sarah Tober
But I kind of expanded that to, preservation of dark skies. Yeah. And some work in that area. And that’s when I really got hooked on, dark Sky international and the work that is being done throughout the country and throughout the world to mitigate light pollution so that children can see, stars at night and consume and experience the Milky Way and all of its vast, you know, reference.

00:15:39:01 – 00:15:51:12
Steven Schauer
So, yeah, you had a couple of good legislative wins during that period, if I recall. Yeah. Yeah. What what were those what were those wins that you got at the Capitol?

00:15:51:14 – 00:16:18:00
Sarah Tober
Yeah, I was very I’m still very proud of that work. it was Senate Bill 941 and that was in the regular session of 2021. and so that was carried by Senator Tom Buckingham at the time, who went on to become a land commissioner, and that Senate Bill 941 allowed for us to join the National Scenic Byway program, which we were the last state to join the National Scenic Byway program.

00:16:18:00 – 00:16:25:03
Sarah Tober
Even though Lady Bird Johnson was the one who started the scenic byway program.

00:16:25:05 – 00:16:27:08
Steven Schauer
Texas is slow on some things sometimes.

00:16:27:13 – 00:16:51:02
Sarah Tober
Yeah, that billboard lobby is not to be messed with. I will tell you. I, I still think I must have caught them sleeping at the wheel. I’m not sure what happened, but, But, yeah, we got that pass, and we had already had 30 stretches of highway that were protected, but we didn’t call them scenic byways because of the billboard industry.

00:16:51:04 – 00:17:11:10
Sarah Tober
you know, fighting against having that program in the state, because once you have that established, then people start learning about the beauty, that can be had along the roads, along those highways. And, then they want to protect it or preserve it or. Right, or even maybe plant trees and gardens. Yeah. It’s all of lady.

00:17:11:10 – 00:17:13:18
Steven Schauer
Wildflowers, like Lady Bird wanted.

00:17:13:20 – 00:17:44:20
Sarah Tober
Exactly, exactly like her vision, was right. And it made sense, you know? her and Lyndon were driving back and forth from DC, to Texas. So they were taking those road trips and seeing firsthand, the plight of billboards, but also the potential beauty when, highways are planted and utilized for natural landscapes. So, so we had so we had that win and, and now there’s a scenic byway.

00:17:44:20 – 00:18:06:10
Sarah Tober
But it’s so exciting to go on a Texas website and see that there’s a scenic byway program and that these stretches of road are being protected and that communities are getting involved and creating, you know, there’s there’s the tourism aspect of it, too, and creating like tourism maps and interactive maps in their communities. Yeah, around scenic byways.

00:18:06:10 – 00:18:32:01
Sarah Tober
And that was the big you know, that was my big, proponent of it is the economic development aspect of these, the scenic byway program. And it does bring funding to your state. It brings funding to these communities. It allows for, tourism to be, right there alongside preservation and sustainable design. So, that was that was one bill.

00:18:32:01 – 00:19:08:20
Sarah Tober
And then the other bill I got through was Senate Bill 1090, also carried by, Senator Diane Buckingham. And, you know, she went on to be the land commissioner at the state of Texas. So it does go hand in hand. The work that, we did that session together, and Senate Bill 1090 was, it allows, communities to pursue Dark Skies certification, that the construction industry had precluded communities from feeling like they could have their own lighting ordinances and regulations in the session before.

00:19:08:20 – 00:19:29:19
Sarah Tober
So this was an industry agreed upon Bill, which are they’re a little bit complicated to navigate. and it requires a, a lot of patience and a lot of, listening to the other party and really coming to a compromise that can work for everybody. because I was, I was working with, you know, dark Sky taxis.

00:19:29:19 – 00:19:57:20
Sarah Tober
I was working with dark Sky international. I was working with the construction industry and lobby, and then I was working with my own organization and my own lobbyist, also working with the legislature and then, communities all throughout the state. So I was having to hear what each community was experiencing with this. And, you know, their concerns about, you know, possible litigation around if they did try to, pursue a dark Sky certification.

00:19:57:22 – 00:20:22:04
Sarah Tober
Yeah. And I’m really proud of the work that we did there, too, because, you know, sometimes you get in sustainability and in preservation, you get, folks who are really, really into it. and they can’t they can’t see the forest through the trees. Right? They it’s, you know, I had so some of the folks with dark Sky, Texas were like, this, isn’t this doesn’t go far enough.

00:20:22:04 – 00:20:43:09
Sarah Tober
This just getting them going, like, you gotta, gotta make it right. Like, yeah, get rid of these. Can’t become Dark Skies certified. And what are we doing here? You know, so I’m. I’m glad we did because, you know, beacon Scott. And in an international award this last year for their dark sky preservation and ordinances. So,

00:20:43:10 – 00:20:56:00
Steven Schauer
Through a little community outside of Austin, for those who aren’t familiar with what BC caves is, it’s it’s so small, suburban, you know, almost, almost rural, but suburban community outside of Austin.

00:20:56:02 – 00:21:23:06
Sarah Tober
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it was, yeah, once I got through that session and those bills, I mean, and, you know, we were still at the second phase of covet. So, yeah, Covid tests every time I go into the capital and. Yeah, you know, it’s it was a whole other layer of, adversity, if you will, difficulty.

00:21:23:06 – 00:21:23:16
Steven Schauer
Sure.

00:21:23:16 – 00:21:42:16
Sarah Tober
And, and, and I had a lot of issues with the board of my nonprofit that I was working with. They, were doing things that were not legal and they were not listening to me. And so, you know, I ended up, you know, despite all of that, getting to bills through that I am very proud of to this day.

00:21:42:16 – 00:21:52:20
Sarah Tober
And that will have a ripple effect on generations to come. And, you know, the the fight is not easy for these kinds of things.

00:21:52:22 – 00:22:15:08
Steven Schauer
no. And I just want to commend you and congratulate you again, because it’s it’s not for those who might not be familiar with, you know, Texas politics or getting those types of bills through, you know, at the state level in Texas, that’s a those are major wins. Sarah, from my years of experience down there as well.

00:22:15:08 – 00:22:47:02
Steven Schauer
And so really, congratulations. And and, you know, we were looking I was working for a river organization at the time, and there was a scenic river program, national program. We didn’t even need to get legislation passed in Texas. It was already this federal program. We just you know, had to decide. It was there, you know, stretches of of the river that we wanted to, include or seek inclusion into this National Scenic Rivers program.

00:22:47:02 – 00:23:26:04
Steven Schauer
And after, you know, investigating it and pushing for it, we had to back off of that because, you know, to become part of this, you know, federal Scenic Rivers program, it involved, you know, getting the National Parks Service involved and some other federal organizations involved in this, the pushback of what we don’t want federal regulatory agencies over, you know, seeing and it wasn’t yeah, really anything like that, but just the stigma in some of, of those discussions down there and the difficulties to to move some of these ideas, into reality is it’s a real thing.

00:23:26:04 – 00:23:57:02
Steven Schauer
And so congratulations to you and, and something else that you touched on that I think is real important is it sounds to me like the way you communicated this to the legislators in the way that you tried to move it through the system is, you know, having multiple messages that are that are true. You had your messages to the dark Sky audience and the the scenic byways audience that this is about esthetics and beauty and environmental protection and all of that.

00:23:57:02 – 00:24:21:21
Steven Schauer
But to the legislators who are, you know, going on to become land commissioners, those folks are right of center in Texas and going to those folks with messages of, yeah, this is about economics. This is about how we’re going to actually generate more revenues for communities. And so I think that tells a story of kind of what this podcast is about is that stories matter.

00:24:21:23 – 00:24:51:05
Steven Schauer
It’s how how you tell somebody a story will move them into action. Because if I’m sure if you went to the legislators with this big environmental message of how green and wonderful and protected this is going to be, and it’s going to put, you know, you know, certain regulatory, you know, things on property owners and everything that’s dead in the water, you know, but going to tell these stories about the economic benefits that these programs will have you you move the needle, you got people to listen to you.

00:24:51:05 – 00:25:02:19
Steven Schauer
So it is an absolute, absolute example of the power of storytelling. And it’s just something you really, you know, absolutely should be proud of when thinking.

00:25:02:21 – 00:25:25:05
Sarah Tober
Yeah, that data around it, you know, there was so much that spoke to it. I mean, like, you know, with the dark skies, for instance, you know, something like 80% of kids who grow up in urban centers will not see the Milky Way. much less a star to, you know, so really letting some of that data tell the story as well.

00:25:25:07 – 00:25:46:10
Sarah Tober
yeah, I ran, you know, economic models on what it could mean for us, to bring in, federal dollars that, you know, we didn’t we were just passing that those federal dollars, which is passing us by, you know, and, you know, it wasn’t going to make our buy in into the tax system any less or anything like that, you know?

00:25:46:11 – 00:25:53:06
Sarah Tober
Right. We were we were passing on free money, that the federal government was giving out for this kind of program.

00:25:53:08 – 00:25:57:12
Steven Schauer
Money that Texas taxpayers are putting into the system. We’re not going to get back. Right? Correct.

00:25:57:12 – 00:26:22:07
Sarah Tober
Exactly. And so there was that argument. And the fact that it can help beautify a community that can, you know, lead to tourism. And, you know, there are lots of people who follow these scenic byways throughout the entire US. You know, there’s a ton of retired folks who take out their RV and that want to go and travel on every scenic byway in the US.

00:26:22:09 – 00:26:56:01
Sarah Tober
in the same with dark skies now, too, we’re seeing this whole movement of astro tourism, that hasn’t, you know, that hasn’t been, nearly as prevalent as it is now. and so, you know, the there’s there’s economic opportunities here as well. So, you know, it does it also help with bird migration and, you know, lightning bugs and, and everybody having, a better night’s sleep and things like that, affecting people’s mental health.

00:26:56:03 – 00:27:29:00
Sarah Tober
Sure. But, that’s a that’s a wonderful byproduct of, of this work. but you’re right, that was not the story I led with in talking with of these folks who are right of center. so, yeah. And I think it’s really indicative of how how much we really do have in common. I think, you know, we talk a lot about polarization and politics, these days and, and how, you know, the left and the right are just at odds with each other.

00:27:29:00 – 00:27:50:17
Sarah Tober
But we really do share more space together than we hoped. And I think I really felt like these bills were part of that, too, demonstrating that we can be bipartisan, we can find common ground again. so that was, part of what motivated me at the time to, finding that space. And.

00:27:50:17 – 00:27:51:11
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

00:27:51:13 – 00:28:13:15
Sarah Tober
And in my work today, too, I’m very bipartisan in the work that I do. and I kind of love that space. I some of the most, you know, some of the most iconic political figures have been in the middle. We have found ways to pull everybody together.

00:28:13:17 – 00:28:39:20
Steven Schauer
The messy middle is where the real work gets done, is where the easy to be on the far right or far left on your soapbox? Yes. You know, kind of screaming your message. but it’s to me, the real work gets done in the middle by people who are open, to listen to the other side, open to, share a message from the perspective of the other side that still is being truthful.

00:28:39:20 – 00:28:55:20
Steven Schauer
And, you know, you know, connecting to your position, but, you know, speaking the language that the other side might be willing to listen to as well. So listening to the other side and speaking their language is that messy middle where the work gets done.

00:28:55:22 – 00:28:56:17
Sarah Tober
Yeah.

00:28:56:19 – 00:29:19:11
Steven Schauer
And your point too, about, you know, not everybody’s going to get everything they want. you had folks I think from your story that wanted more, you know, and and that’s great. But you got to start somewhere, as you said. And it starts with these hard conversations and getting people to open the door a little bit to the, to the, to the idea.

00:29:19:11 – 00:29:24:03
Steven Schauer
And then in the future, maybe that door can continue to open further. But you got to start somewhere.

00:29:24:05 – 00:29:40:13
Sarah Tober
Yeah, I agree. And another integration of my story in telling my story in this work specifically is, that I was able to get a resolution passed in the county I grew up in, in Kendall County. Yeah. very.

00:29:40:13 – 00:29:41:02
Steven Schauer
Conservative.

00:29:41:02 – 00:30:09:16
Sarah Tober
County, very, very conservative county, very conservative. And, we passed the resolution recognizing the significance of the dark sky and the preservation of it. and the commissioner who, who spoke on it, he had beautiful, eloquent, eloquent words about it, very conservative, but, you know, demonstrating the need, preserving our dark skies so that, generations to come can still observe those stars.

00:30:09:18 – 00:30:32:17
Sarah Tober
I got that resolution passed as part of, work in partnership with the Hill Country Alliance, who was really helping to lead this effort of dark skies, especially in the Hill country. and so it was one of those opportunities that I jumped on because they, they only needed 1 or 2 more counties to complete, all of the counties that had passed resolutions.

00:30:32:17 – 00:31:07:21
Sarah Tober
And so getting the resolution passed in my home county with my then one year old son on my lap, in the middle of Covid again, and, and the place where I got to fall in love with the stars. Really? That and that was that was the space that my dad taught me about constellations. And, you know, we both shared our love for Star Trek and things like that together and looking at the stars and just imagining, if you know what it would be like to explore, with the an astronaut or that kind of thing.

00:31:07:23 – 00:31:39:03
Sarah Tober
and my father, he had passed away when my son Waylon was born, so it was. Yeah. But and of course, it was sad and tragic, but it was also this beautiful moment that I got to have there in Kendall County. Yeah. where it all came together, my personal story along with my work, along with the, the story of of Texans being able to see those stars are supposed to be bigger and brighter in Texas.

00:31:39:04 – 00:31:40:22
Sarah Tober
So, yeah, you know.

00:31:41:19 – 00:31:48:08
Sarah Tober
Sometimes our work can intersect with our personal life in a, in a really, harmonious moment.

00:31:48:11 – 00:31:49:15
Steven Schauer
And a really beautiful way.

00:31:49:15 – 00:31:52:04
Sarah Tober
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. thank you.

00:31:52:04 – 00:32:09:11
Steven Schauer
For sharing that. That really was. That’s a that’s a lovely story. I’m sorry for the loss of your father, but how you weave that hardship and grief into this beautiful moment. you know, years later. That’s really touching to me. So thank you for sharing that.

00:32:09:13 – 00:32:36:02
Sarah Tober
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I find that a lot of my work, you know, is most motivated by family and by people who have touched my lives in a manner that I want to do, something that impacts them or remembers, you know, their contribution to this world. So it has further inspired me, even here in Colorado, to continue dark Sky work.

00:32:36:06 – 00:33:09:21
Sarah Tober
And I’ve been able to, I mean, I was able to help the the dark Sky international chapter here, to become a 583 these last year. Yeah. So it’s now dark Sky Colorado, and it is the only statewide nonprofit that’s really focused on, preserving and protecting our dark skies. And we were able to do some really cool legislation up here a couple of years ago that, started a mentorship program in collaboration with the Colorado Tourism Office.

00:33:09:23 – 00:33:27:06
Sarah Tober
And this mentorship program allows dark Sky Colorado to provide technical assistance, to communities, parks, reserves so that we have more dark sky places in the pipeline to become international dark sky places.

00:33:27:07 – 00:33:27:13
Steven Schauer
Right.

00:33:27:18 – 00:33:58:06
Sarah Tober
so again, working with the legislature up here, working with Colorado Tourism Office now I’m working with the state Parks and wildlife here, as well as we endeavor to provide them some, very specific technical assistance. And, we have more, dark sky places in the pipeline than anywhere else. So we have, almost 30, I believe, in the pipeline in addition to the almost 20 that we have already certified.

00:33:58:09 – 00:34:17:14
Sarah Tober
So it’s very exciting time here in Colorado to be protecting our stars. And, and we’re going to be really focused on trying to, pin down some money for these communities and parks who need to retrofit their lighting. So as they’re starting to do more.

00:34:17:14 – 00:34:18:20
Steven Schauer
Aiming down lighting.

00:34:18:22 – 00:34:46:06
Sarah Tober
Yes, exactly. As they’re taking lighting inventories and they’re doing dark sky measurements, they’re realizing, how they can impact, that, that light pollution that they’re, that their communities may be putting off currently, to help businesses, too. I mean, we’re not wanting to, regulate everybody into dark sky, compliance necessarily. We’re wanting to help, you know, and.

00:34:46:07 – 00:34:48:00
Steven Schauer
Sure, there’s better ways of doing things.

00:34:48:01 – 00:35:12:20
Sarah Tober
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it is more energy efficient and it is safer at night. actually, when you’re not blinding somebody, you know, there’s this misperception of lighting being more safe at night. And in fact, you’re more likely to get jumped, by a burglar, if you will, because you can’t see because the lights are too bright and they are, and they’re prepared for that.

00:35:12:20 – 00:35:41:13
Sarah Tober
And you’re not, you know, they’re the natural acclimation of our eyes to the dark sky is healthy on so many levels. And so, and it’s safer. And so, yeah, we’re we’re doing our best to kind of get the word out and to help support these areas that will protect their dark skies. As you know, Colorado is growing and, you know, it we’re supposed to have another million people here in the next couple of years.

00:35:41:15 – 00:35:52:13
Sarah Tober
And so as it grows and as there’s more development, we want to make sure that, we’re developing in a sustainable manner. And, lighting is a big part of that.

00:35:52:17 – 00:36:02:06
Steven Schauer
Absolutely. So when did you transition to Colorado and left Austin? And I think you went from Austin to to Durango, if that’s.

00:36:02:06 – 00:36:02:18
Sarah Tober
Correct.

00:36:02:18 – 00:36:15:05
Steven Schauer
When, when did that transition happen that you then started doing all this great work with Dark Skies in Colorado and then and moving on to to what you’re doing these days? Also, in addition to the all that dark skies work.

00:36:15:07 – 00:36:26:12
Sarah Tober
Yeah, yeah. So in 2021, after we after I was after those two bills passed, I said, it’s never going to get any better in advocacy. This I’m looking at my hat.

00:36:26:13 – 00:36:28:15
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Walker. Well I’m on top. Yep.

00:36:28:19 – 00:36:56:01
Sarah Tober
Exactly. So we actually took we took some time trying to figure out what our next steps where we, put our house up, for rent. And we bought a travel trailer, and we were working from our travel trailer all around the state of Texas, and then, and staying at various parks and then going to national parks, with our son and our pug and our cat.

00:36:56:03 – 00:37:24:14
Sarah Tober
hello to them there. experiencing, nature and the outdoors in a whole new way. and we, we were just trying to kind of take time. We’d been talk about moving to Durango. We talked about moving to Boulder for over a decade. We’ve been growing property here for over a decade, like. And we saw that the window was kind of closing, that people were starting to make moves after Covid, finally pursuing those dreams that they had put on hold for so long.

00:37:24:14 – 00:37:47:14
Sarah Tober
Right. Yeah. So we, we decided in 2021 there’s no better time. Let’s do this. And so we moved here, to Durango in December. Didn’t quite make our one year, goal of traveling in a travel trailer with a toddler and a and a pug and a cat. We determined it was a little bit more complicated than we like.

00:37:47:16 – 00:37:48:13
Steven Schauer
Going on there.

00:37:48:16 – 00:38:12:19
Sarah Tober
Yeah. So, I, I left my job with the, with a nonprofit that I had been the executive director of. And, Bobby started his own, company. I’m still working with, the engineering firm he had been with for the last decade. and we kind of just started. Started all over again, a little in Durango.

00:38:12:21 – 00:38:20:01
Sarah Tober
and then I went on to get involved in the housing crisis here, specifically the workforce housing crisis here.

00:38:20:06 – 00:38:22:07
Steven Schauer
Low income, middle income housing.

00:38:22:09 – 00:38:48:04
Sarah Tober
Yeah. there’s not, you know, they have the area median income, the 80 to 120%, which is considered the missing middle. there are some nonprofits here that are focused on that 60%, am I? And below, and so, you know, just seeing seeing workforce being pushed out of the area, young families not being able to afford a home.

00:38:48:06 – 00:38:53:15
Sarah Tober
Yeah. Because firefighters, you, you name it are all struggling with housing here.

00:38:53:16 – 00:38:55:00
Steven Schauer
Forgotten middle. Yeah.

00:38:55:02 – 00:39:28:12
Sarah Tober
And then there’s this huge, you know, commuter base here as well. There’s a lot of folks who live in Farmington, New Mexico. And they travel up here for jobs, to La Plata County, specifically to Durango. So I just, you know, I think it’s really important that everyone has access to housing. You know, that everyone who is working, you know, they deserve to have housing where they live and work, you know, I, I breaks my heart that people are especially families are having to do these kind of commutes and that kind of thing, too.

00:39:28:12 – 00:39:55:13
Sarah Tober
And during our, during the snow months and things like that. So anyways, got them got involved with workforce housing, specifically supporting the, the La Plata Economic Development Alliance and then at the time, Mike French, who was the executive director, pulled me into more work than just housing there. And I talked him into, adding child care this year to our budget as well.

00:39:55:15 – 00:40:28:00
Sarah Tober
because there’s also, that nexus, between child care and workforce housing a lot of times. So, so I knew that, you know, we also have a child care, crisis here and a lack of early child care specifically. and so, I’ve been getting involved with that, and we were able to partner with the city of Durango and the Regional Housing Alliance and, received a doula grant at the Department of Labor.

00:40:28:02 – 00:40:59:01
Sarah Tober
No. Department of Local Affairs. Sorry about that. Too many acronyms. and so we’re we’re really researching this issue. We we did the same thing with Workforce Housing, where we did an investment, strategic investment plan, which really laid out what are the issues and then, more importantly, what are the solutions. And we had like a six pronged approach, for those solutions and one of that was standing the Regional Housing Alliance, which is a multi-jurisdictional housing authority.

00:40:59:03 – 00:41:22:00
Sarah Tober
it was also preserving what we have here. I was able to, get involved with the preservation of the West Side mobile home park here where the, residents were able to buy their own, park before it was sold to developers who would have absolutely, sure. Sent them out, basically.

00:41:22:01 – 00:41:25:16
Steven Schauer
To move on and put in something that they couldn’t afford to live.

00:41:25:16 – 00:41:52:15
Sarah Tober
In. That’s exactly right. And West Side is, primarily Spanish speaking, community. And so, and 100% workforce. And it’s like we, we have to do something to help, protect folks here who. Yeah, who wouldn’t otherwise be able to do it on their own. They need, community support. So getting involved with that as well. So I’m not doing traditional economic development, as I’m sure you are.

00:41:52:15 – 00:42:20:21
Sarah Tober
Not surprised. not to say there’s not. And then, you know, a need for, you know, tax incentivization for specific industries to expand jobs here. But we really are focused on, preserving what we have and trying to keep, jobs, businesses here, keep our workers here, keep them housed, provide them childcare for all of those, all of those things.

00:42:20:23 – 00:42:25:19
Sarah Tober
we’re not even really in a recruitment kind of space, even at as.

00:42:25:23 – 00:42:29:03
Steven Schauer
Far as trying to bring other industries or businesses to town. It’s.

00:42:29:03 – 00:42:53:09
Sarah Tober
Yeah, we I mean, legitimately, when businesses look here, they say, well, where’s my workforce and where could they live, you know? Right. Even though local hospital has a hard time finding housing for their doctors and things like that. So. Yeah. so, it does have me in nontraditional economic development space, but a lot of economic development organizations here in Colorado are into this space.

00:42:53:09 – 00:43:26:10
Sarah Tober
They are into housing. They are into childcare. They are figuring out unique solutions, to keep the workforce supported and to keep businesses supported. So, you know, I’ve always in all of this work that I’ve done, there’s been a thread of community resiliency that I’ve had an interest in. I do believe really like, I believe in the circular economy as it relates to sustainability, but I also believe in the circular economy as it relates, to local capitalism and economics there, too.

00:43:26:12 – 00:43:52:10
Sarah Tober
yeah. And keeping that money flowing around your, community too. Yeah. So, so, yeah, this year I was, made the executive director of the La Plata Economic Development Alliance. Congress. thank you. Appreciate that. So I’m stepping back from my dark sky Colorado kind of, I was the first executive director of dark Sky Colorado, which was, such an honor.

00:43:52:10 – 00:44:18:20
Sarah Tober
And I still love and believe in the work and and still helping, from a quieter place, than I was before. But it’s. And I’m actually pulling in an astro tourism, highlight in our upcoming Alliance annual summit. So we have an annual leadership summit that comes up on September 19th, and we bring in speakers from all around the country.

00:44:18:20 – 00:44:47:20
Sarah Tober
And we, and we focus on issues that are important, to our area. So, one of the things is, that I’m bringing in is, is an astro tourism one because, our Durango, our visit Durango organization, Waylon Ryan over there, he born and raised in Durango. He had his master’s, was focused on dark skies and specifically astro tourism.

00:44:47:22 – 00:44:56:19
Sarah Tober
And so when he and I got connected a couple of years ago in the community and both shared our love of dark skies, wow. Then it was.

00:44:56:19 – 00:44:57:13
Steven Schauer
He’s in a pod.

00:44:57:15 – 00:45:23:15
Sarah Tober
It’s. Yeah, exactly. Two peas in a pod. Then. Then we’re off to the races. So we’ve, really focused on not only getting Durango, dark Sky certified as it is in the pipeline to become dark Sky certified, but also the town of Bayfield, which is, you know, 15 minutes down the road from Durango, Silverton, which is like 45 minutes down the road from Durango, Mesa Verde, National Park already is, dark Sky Park.

00:45:23:17 – 00:45:34:02
Sarah Tober
so, yeah. So we are we’re we’re doing this. We’re. Yeah, we’re focused on trying to get this whole region dark sky if we can.

00:45:34:03 – 00:46:01:21
Steven Schauer
Yeah. And then the tourism, that dollars that’ll follow that again tying it back into what’s good for the community. Good for the environment, good for the economics. I mean, I, I really appreciate like your whole career journey, really looking holistically at these issues and, and even, you know, the dimension of capitalism, I mean, sustainability isn’t like trying at least from my perspective, trying to do away with capitalism.

00:46:01:21 – 00:46:27:08
Steven Schauer
It’s trying to, you know, transform capitalism into something that looks more holistically at all of these different issues, not just simply shareholder bottom line. And, you know, the, the, the same that we’ve been doing it for several decades. It’s capitalism is great, but can we make it better so that it’s more holistic and benefiting more people and the environment, as well as making money for people who are in business?

00:46:27:08 – 00:46:48:01
Steven Schauer
So yes, I really appreciate your, you know, job after job after job, as you’ve pursued your career really looking holistically at these things, you know, that triple bottom line of, you know, you know, planet people and and profits and it’s not, you know, that capitalism is bad. no, it’s actually pretty good. We just need to make it better.

00:46:48:03 – 00:46:53:20
Steven Schauer
Agreed. Yeah. Really appreciate your approach that you’ve shared with us today and and all of that.

00:46:53:22 – 00:47:14:06
Sarah Tober
Yeah. Yeah, we can make it work better for us. I know we can. that I have, you know, my socialist Democrat friends are like, what are you talking about? But but we can understand capitalism isn’t all bad. And and and when you study it, you know, it’s there are some government regulations in place to ensure that the market is balanced.

00:47:14:06 – 00:47:31:06
Sarah Tober
You know, it’s not supposed to be a free for all. it’s not right to be supportive of only monopolies, you know, and that kind of thing. All right. So and I’m you know, it’s funny, in grad school, I kept asking professors, can we talk about B Corp? Can we learn about that? Yeah. And nobody wanted to talk about nobody wanted to talk.

00:47:31:08 – 00:47:37:18
Sarah Tober
They were like, oh, you know, we don’t really know. And I’m like, yeah. And here in Colorado, I see a number of B courts.

00:47:37:20 – 00:47:38:19
Steven Schauer
And right on the.

00:47:38:21 – 00:47:39:01
Sarah Tober
Of.

00:47:39:01 – 00:47:45:06
Steven Schauer
Like, we tell everybody what a B corp is. just so that people might not be familiar with that. What what is that mean.

00:47:45:11 – 00:47:45:19
Sarah Tober
Yeah.

00:47:45:19 – 00:47:55:18
Steven Schauer
Talk about it a couple of episodes ago or maybe last episode actually with, with, our sustainable finance guest. But just as a reminder for folks, what is what is that?

00:47:55:20 – 00:48:25:20
Sarah Tober
Yeah. a B Corp is a for profit organization. It’s a not it’s not a nonprofit. But the measurement is not just in returns to stakeholders, but also in to, mission based improvements to the environment or to a sustainable cost. So, your, your mission and how you’re delivering on your mission is just as important as the return to, those stakeholders and, to the business.

00:48:25:20 – 00:48:51:11
Steven Schauer
So more purpose driven or impact driven ways of, of making money, but actually doing something that’s more holistically beneficial and, and, yeah, that was, those are things that need to be, I think, more widely supported and implemented. And, yeah, I don’t it’s probably not surprising that the, you know, the, MBA program at UT was in the big B Corp.

00:48:51:13 – 00:48:52:08
Steven Schauer
Did,

00:48:52:10 – 00:48:53:01
Sarah Tober
I know, right?

00:48:53:01 – 00:49:18:09
Steven Schauer
Yeah. A couple of years ago, I did a certification program with the teacher of sustainable business at the University of Oxford. And, it was very much about sustainability businesses and B Corp’s and and all that, everything that was part of know embedded into that program. And it it made me feel good. It was like, oh, there are business programs that actually do promote these things.

00:49:18:09 – 00:49:32:21
Steven Schauer
So yes, it’s important we need to start moving towards these purpose driven, impact driven businesses that make money. Yeah, but also are doing good along the way and not just, caring about that. Bottom line all the time.

00:49:33:02 – 00:49:35:18
Sarah Tober
And, and Patagonia is a good example of that. Right.

00:49:35:18 – 00:49:41:22
Steven Schauer
And the super example, like the poster child of examples for, for how to do that business that, that business model.

00:49:42:02 – 00:50:02:13
Sarah Tober
And even and even what I also looked at it from the lens of, how they treat their, how they treat their mothers. So women who work for Patagonia, who have a child, they get a year off of work and they, they come back to work, they always have a job there, and they have a 100% retention.

00:50:02:15 – 00:50:15:17
Sarah Tober
You know, they don’t have, they don’t have that institutional knowledge loss. But so many organizations do when they don’t bring back those moms, or bring them back at lower levels and that kind of thing. So, yeah.

00:50:15:19 – 00:50:18:14
Steven Schauer
All those things matter. How you take care of your employees matter.

00:50:18:15 – 00:50:19:00
Sarah Tober
Yes.

00:50:19:05 – 00:50:53:02
Steven Schauer
You know, the regenerative business practices, business practices that you can, you know, build into your systems so that you’re regenerating the Earth and, and the, you know, citizen society, as you’re taking resources from it, you’re you’re giving more back in the process, or at least, an equal, give and take. but if you can get into a fully regenerative business model where your, your business is actually benefiting more than it’s taking away, I mean, these are things we need to be more serious about, as we move forward.

00:50:53:02 – 00:50:53:15
Steven Schauer
So I.

00:50:53:16 – 00:50:54:11
Sarah Tober
Believe.

00:50:54:13 – 00:51:16:20
Steven Schauer
And you are doing it, you’re doing it. And it’s it’s so great to hear about. So yeah. as we’re kind of getting near the hour here, you know, I want to give you a chance to, to, you know, plug your organization, plug the event that’s coming up, give people a call to action, whatever, whatever you want to do here, for a few minutes.

00:51:16:20 – 00:51:23:10
Steven Schauer
What anybody listening to this or watching to this, what do you want them to do now that they’ve been inspired by your story?

00:51:23:12 – 00:51:46:01
Sarah Tober
Oh, okay. I would love to plug a couple of things. well, dark Sky Colorado, you know, come out here and enjoy the stars with us. and, feel free to become a member of dark Sky Colorado as well, or contribute to it. it is a tiny little organization, where all of our resources are going right back out into the programing.

00:51:46:01 – 00:52:13:05
Sarah Tober
So there’s no overhead, there’s no office, there’s no staff. Then it is board run. It is. I have been contracted in the past as, as the first executive director, but it could use, some more resources and, support and love, from folks. And then, the other is, well, I with the little plot of Economic Development Alliance, our leadership summit is coming up.

00:52:13:05 – 00:52:34:06
Sarah Tober
So our theme this year is the new P3 people Place purpose. And, we are tying that back to a lot of the work that the Alliance does. We talked about workforce housing, and we talked about this beautiful place we live in. And we talk about, you know, how we can best, preserve our workforce in that space.

00:52:34:06 – 00:52:54:11
Sarah Tober
We talk about people, we’re talking about workforce. We’re talking about employers. We’re talking about employees. You know, and we’re also talking about how they matter. and then, you know, purposes beyond the office, beyond the job at hand. You know, what is really driving us and what is really bringing us together. And there’s economic value in all of those three things.

00:52:54:13 – 00:53:19:20
Sarah Tober
And we are bringing in, some great speakers. We’re bringing in, Captain Charles Charlie Plum, he is a P.O.W. as, who was, survivor, obviously, who was, who was actually with John McCain. and his story is very moving, but he also talks about post-traumatic growth, which is a concept.

00:53:19:20 – 00:53:21:00
Steven Schauer
That the other side.

00:53:21:04 – 00:53:38:11
Sarah Tober
Is, yeah, is still fairly new, where we’re all pretty well versed. I feel like at this point about trauma, about the, about traumatic events and how that affects us. But that post-traumatic growth is really, innovative space. And then,

00:53:38:12 – 00:54:05:07
Steven Schauer
And that just for folks who might not be familiar, that’s so it is a, you know, tied to, you know, the PTSD part of it where there’s the trauma side of it. But the there is a growing body of, of evidence and studies showing that people can actually be resilient through these traumatic circumstances and, and have tremendous growth, even though there was a horrible circumstance that happened to them.

00:54:05:12 – 00:54:08:07
Steven Schauer
Is that in my defining that kind of thing?

00:54:08:08 – 00:54:32:09
Sarah Tober
Yes. Yeah, yeah. And I think it’s really it’s you know, I think it’s very solutions oriented again to which, I just so you know, there’s no shortage of crisis and issues for us to focus on. But I think solutions and having those solutions in place are equally important to focus on, if not more, for us to understand the best pathway forward.

00:54:32:10 – 00:55:07:01
Sarah Tober
and then another speaker is, Matthew Emerson. He is the CEO of Every Monday Matters, nonprofit that is focused on, really connecting people back with their purpose and also, helping to support that employee base more wholly. and then and then, another speaker that we’re having is, Luciano and she is the VP at Upworthy, and she’s coauthoring a book, that is all about, like, the greatest stories, from humanity that will be coming out September.

00:55:07:01 – 00:55:34:03
Sarah Tober
So yeah. Yeah, it’s a big it’s a, you know, a lot of county work, pretty small down here, you know. But in the four corners, this is one of the biggest leadership business events. we had about almost 500 attendees last year. So we anticipate, around the same again. And it’s there at the, it’s there at the, casino there in Ignacio, because that’s the largest indoor space that we have for that many people.

00:55:34:04 – 00:55:35:08
Sarah Tober
Nice.

00:55:35:10 – 00:55:48:11
Steven Schauer
Yeah, we’ll we’ll put the information about Dark Skies Colorado in the leadership Summit on the notes page. So folks listening to this or watching to it can get the links and, and, support and or show up to participate.

00:55:48:11 – 00:55:51:18
Sarah Tober
So what that’s the interesting.

00:55:51:20 – 00:56:29:13
Steven Schauer
Well, Sarah, thank you again for your time. And, and I end every episode, the same way, we, you know, these these stories, you know, they’re about sustainability. As you just mentioned, there’s no shortage of trauma and difficult things to talk about. And the least subject matters are hard sometimes. You know, when when we’re talking about, you know, homeless issues or being able to support child care, these are, you know, difficult choices that people have to make and face and life and, and and they’re not always easy to, listen to or, you know, or work in these spaces.

00:56:29:13 – 00:57:08:18
Steven Schauer
So there’s, there’s a lot of, hard days when you’re in these spaces, and talking about these, things, these hard things on a regular basis. So I try to end every episode, not only with the call to action that you just did within, you know, leaving everybody with a little bit of hope and and hope as it’s kind of like, you know, clinically defined is this idea that you can envision a better future, but you also have the personal agency to take steps to make that personal vision become a reality so that, you know, hope is a is an important it’s not a, you know, strategy, but it is needed in

00:57:08:18 – 00:57:29:23
Steven Schauer
order to have that, you know, inspiration to go do the work. So I’m gonna ask you three questions. kind of rapid fire, just kind of, you know, whatever comes to your, your heart or your mind, just this kind of made it out. so the first question is, Sarah, what’s your vision for a better future?

00:57:29:23 – 00:57:35:19
Steven Schauer
And it can be for you personally, professionally or for the world. What’s your vision for a better future?

00:57:35:21 – 00:58:08:17
Sarah Tober
My vision for a better future is a more balanced political system, that is representative of all the voices, not just, to, conflicting ideas, and, one that is taking into account, sustainability alongside the economic profitability of the work we’re doing. that’s, and of course, I want to, want dark skies at night for all of us to enjoy those stars.

00:58:08:19 – 00:58:10:09
Sarah Tober
Right on.

00:58:10:11 – 00:58:23:12
Steven Schauer
So, so, yeah, I think the whole interviews kind of led to this answer, but just why do you want there to be more balanced in our political discussions and more dark skies? What why?

00:58:23:14 – 00:58:51:21
Sarah Tober
for my for my son Weiland, I I’m, I’m at a point in my life where most of what I’m doing every day, it is it is what the purpose of giving him opportunities that maybe I didn’t have, to ensure that he has a better planet than what I had, than what I experienced. and and and he being representative of all of the children of this next generation and the generations to come.

00:58:51:21 – 00:58:57:22
Sarah Tober
So, so, yeah, that’s my big motivator. That’s my big driver every day.

00:58:58:00 – 00:59:25:15
Steven Schauer
It’s awesome. So last question. Imagine the future that you’ve envisioned, this future where politics aren’t so polarizing. We’re actually communicating and sharing these complex ideas and looking, you know, for solutions together as opposed to yelling at each other. And, and dark skies are everywhere. People can enjoy the amazing beauty of the Milky Way at night. How does that make you feel that that future is now a reality?

00:59:27:06 – 00:59:59:09
Sarah Tober
Yeah. I mean you painted a beautiful picture for me. So it, it, you know, I wouldn’t ever rest on my laurels and think that all the work is done. and there’s always, room to do more and better, just like we talked about with capitalism. But, I would certainly I would certainly rest a little easier and maybe not have two and three jobs at a time.

00:59:59:11 – 01:00:03:20
Sarah Tober
Just enjoying one at a time, maybe. Luckily,

01:00:03:22 – 01:00:06:14
Steven Schauer
I feel like you could take a little bit of a break.

01:00:06:14 – 01:00:15:10
Sarah Tober
Exactly. And they call that and they call that here, by the way. They call that the Durango Tango. Everybody has multiple jobs and.

01:00:16:01 – 01:00:17:18
Sarah Tober
Yeah, yeah.

01:00:17:20 – 01:00:41:04
Steven Schauer
Well, wonderful. Sarah, thank you so much for joining me today. and sharing your story, your background, your career path. It’s, you know, I’m grateful to know you. I know we’ve kind of haven’t, you know, seen much of each other the last couple decades, but it was a pleasure working with you so long ago, and it’s been just a joy to see you continue to just grow and do all these amazing things that you’ve been doing in your career path.

01:00:41:04 – 01:00:58:15
Steven Schauer
And I’m I couldn’t be happier for you and your family. And, I’m going to do my little bits, little parts of the puzzle. I’ll do as best as I can to put those pieces in place to help your, vision for a better future come to pass. So thank you for for being part of this show really means a lot to me.

01:00:58:19 – 01:01:09:12
Sarah Tober
Thank you. Steven, it means so much to be able to share this time with you. And I’m so proud of this, series that you’re creating here. I’m so excited for it. So thank you.

01:01:09:14 – 01:01:12:19
Steven Schauer
All right, well, we’ll stay in touch. Take care, take care.

01:01:13:00 – 01:01:13:21
Sarah Tober
Bye.

01:01:13:23 – 01:01:14:17
Steven Schauer
All right.

01:01:14:17 – 01:01:41:03
Steven Schauer
And that brings us to the end of another insightful episode of Stories Sustain Us. A huge thank you to my incredible guest, Sarah Tober, for sharing her inspiring journey and valuable insights with us today. From her love for the stars and her work in dark Sky preservation, to her current role in economic development and workforce housing. Sarah has shown us the importance of protecting our environment while striving for economic growth.

01:01:41:05 – 01:02:14:18
Steven Schauer
Her work in sustainability and advocacy, particularly Sarah’s legislative wins promoting dark skies and scenic byways, showcases her dedication to both environmental preservation and economic benefits. Her emphasis on the power of storytelling, finding common ground in bipartisan efforts, and balancing sustainability with economic profitability has been truly inspiring. Sarah’s reflections on the challenges and successes of her advocacy efforts remind us all of the importance of persistence and collaboration.

01:02:14:20 – 01:02:50:13
Steven Schauer
I, for one, am in full support of Sarah’s vision for a better future, being a more balanced political system that is representative of all the voices. Look, I’m going to avoid the temptation here to get on my soapbox and rail against what I think are the problems with our current political system, particularly on the national level. So rather than being angry and ranting, I’ll simply say that I think some of the ways we can achieve a more balanced political system that is representative of all voices, by doing away with gerrymandering and implementing an open primary system in every state for all elections.

01:02:50:15 – 01:03:20:12
Steven Schauer
How is any of this connected to sustainability, you may ask? It connects because peaceful and inclusive societies are crucial for sustainable development. To have a properly functioning government here in our democracy or government in any other country. There needs to be effective, accountable and transparent elected officials and institutions at all levels. And we need to ensure responsive, inclusive, participatory and representative decision making at all levels.

01:03:20:14 – 01:03:51:00
Steven Schauer
I’ll wrap this up by encouraging everyone to vote during this 2024 election cycle. The polling I’ve seen shows that the climate and environment don’t even make the top five important issues facing voters in the US. And that’s okay, because if you’ve been following this podcast by now, you may have picked up that sustainability is a large umbrella. So issues like the economy, immigration, healthcare, jobs, civil rights, these are all sustainable issues, just like climate change.

01:03:51:02 – 01:04:11:02
Steven Schauer
We can either address these issues in a balanced way, which would support sustainability or not. So I encourage you to vote. Look beyond the attack ads and silly name calling and vote for the candidates you think best represents the future you want to see happen. So yeah, I’m probably pretty close to getting on that soapbox I’m trying to avoid.

01:04:11:04 – 01:04:35:22
Steven Schauer
So let me loop back into thanking Sarah Tober one last time for an engaging and encouraging conversation about the importance of balancing sustainability and economic profitability, and the need for a more representative and collaborative political system. Clearly, I support Sarah’s vision for a better future, and I hope you do too. And be sure to check out the Show Notes page for more information about the organizations Sarah mentioned.

01:04:35:22 – 01:05:16:12
Steven Schauer
Like dark Sky Colorado and the La Plata Economic Development Alliance. As always, thank you, audience for joining me today. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review and share it with your friends. I appreciate the support. Next week on Story Sustain Us, we’ll be talking about a project that is near and dear to my heart. You’ll learn about a true internationally recognized ecosystem restoration success story that transformed a river from a flood conveyance channel into a more natural riverine system, creating recreational opportunities, environmental benefits, and economic development as part of this ecosystem restoration project.

01:05:16:17 – 01:05:39:05
Steven Schauer
My guest next week is an aquatic biologist who is leading an innovative effort to reintroduce native freshwater mussels to this newly restored riverine ecosystem in the heart of one of the largest cities in the United States. If you don’t know why that’s such a big deal, you’ll want to come back next week to learn all about it. The episode will be available on August 20th.

01:05:39:05 – 01:05:54:06
Steven Schauer
Wherever you listen to podcasts and its stories sustain this.com. It’s an incredible success story and you’re not going to want to miss it. Till next time. I’m Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself and each other. Take care.

Listen to the podcast or watch the full interview.

Summary

In this conversation, Shaun Donovan shares his journey from growing up in San Antonio to becoming an aquatic biologist and eventually joining the San Antonio River Authority. He discusses his passion for marine biology and the experiences that shaped his career path. The conversation also touches on the importance of sharing positive environmental stories and the significance of the San Antonio River Improvements Project, particularly the Mission Reach section. The conversation discusses the restoration of the San Antonio River and the success of the Mission Reach project. The project transformed a trapezoidal flood conveyance channel into a natural river system, creating recreational opportunities, economic development, and environmental benefits. The conversation also highlights the importance of freshwater mussels as indicators of river health and the efforts to reintroduce them into the river. The vision for a better future is for people to value and protect natural spaces as much as material possessions. The call to action is for individuals to take small steps to protect local water bodies and support organizations that share their environmental values.

About the Guest

About the Guest
Shaun Donovan is the Manager of the Environmental Sciences Department and has been with the San Antonio River Authority since 2012. The Environmental Sciences Department is responsible for the collection, analysis, quality assurance and data management of the River Authority’s environmental data including routine and storm water quality, fish, freshwater mussel, aquatic insect and habitat surveys and other special projects based on various community and organizational needs. Shaun received his bachelor’s and master’s degrees from Texas A&M University – Corpus Christi. He is a Certified Fisheries Professional and active member of the American Fisheries Society (AFS) and a certified Project Management Professional.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/shaun-donovan-970a702a8

Show Notes

San Antonio River Authority: https://www.sariverauthority.org/
San Antonio River Improvements Project: https://www.sariverauthority.org/about/history/
Mission Reach Ecosystem Restoration: https://www.sariverauthority.org/services/river-health/ecosystems/
San Antonio River Walk Mission Reach (park information): https://www.sariverauthority.org/parks-trails/san-antonio-river-walk-mission-reach/
Mission Reach bird watching video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-57gyqtzVk&t=1s
Mission Reach kayak video #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4igFPmdSQs&t=64s
Mission Reach kayak video #2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHKAl7A_Oks
Mission Reach Avian Study: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kExaFuxr9zY&t=2s
San Antonio to Seadrift (kayak trip on the San Antonio River includes information about the San Antonio River Improvements Project): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WorbgBLIZ3E
Mission Reach documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaSuxeyfxjg&t=9s
The Story of the San Antonio River documentary (includes information about the San Antonio River Improvements Project): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9WTQEPWXVA
Thiess International RiverPrize: https://riverfoundation.org.au/2017/09/san-antonio-river-wins-2017-thiess-international-riverprize/

San Antonio River Authority Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SanAntonioRiver
San Antonio River Authority X: https://twitter.com/sanantonioriver
San Antonio River Authority Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sanantonioriver/
San Antonio River Authority YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/SARAIGCR/videos
San Antonio River Authority LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/san-antonio-river-authority/posts/?feedView=all

Keywords

San Antonio, Shaun Donovan, marine biology, environmental stories, San Antonio River Authority, San Antonio River Improvements Project, Mission Reach, San Antonio River, Mission Reach project, restoration, flood conveyance, natural river system, recreational opportunities, economic development, environmental benefits, freshwater mussels, river health, reintroduction, vision for a better future, value natural spaces, protect water bodies, support environmental organizations

Transcript

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:25:18
Steven Schauer
Hello and welcome to episode ten of Stories Sustain Us podcast, where we’re exploring inspiring stories of sustainability. I’m your host, Steven Schauer, and I’m delighted to have you join us today. In today’s episode, we have an exceptional guest who has been making significant contributions to the field of aquatic biology and environmental restoration. Shaun Donovan is here to share his journey and insights.

00:00:25:20 – 00:00:57:15
Steven Schauer
One of Shaun’s standout projects is the San Antonio River Improvements Project, specifically the Mission Reach section. This remarkable ecosystem restoration project in Texas has brought about a multitude of benefits from boosting the economy and enhancing recreational opportunities, to providing substantial environmental improvements. The transformation of the San Antonio River from basically a drainage ditch into a vibrant, natural, native river system is a testament to the power of innovative thinking and collaboration.

00:00:57:17 – 00:01:23:18
Steven Schauer
Shaun emphasizes the importance of telling stories about environmental projects to connect with people and gain their support. Shaun’s work also highlights the essential collaboration between federal, local and regional entities for the success of large scale projects like the Mission Reach. Additionally, Shaun talks about an incredible component of the restoration project that he spearheaded the reintroduction of freshwater mussels.

00:01:23:20 – 00:01:44:23
Steven Schauer
Mussels are a vital indicator of river health, and the work Shaun is accomplishing showcases the project’s commitment to ecological integrity. Let me tell you a bit more about Shaun before we dive into this fascinating environmental success story. Shaun Donovan is the manager of the environmental sciences department at the San Antonio River Authority, where he has worked since 2012.

00:01:45:01 – 00:02:19:12
Steven Schauer
The environmental sciences Department is responsible for the collection, analysis, quality assurance and data management of the river Authority’s environmental data, including routine and stormwater quality fish, freshwater mussels, aquatic insect and habitat surveys, and other special projects based on various community and organizational needs. Shaun received his bachelor’s and master’s degree from Texas A&M University Corpus Christi. He is a certified fisheries professional and an active member of the American Fisheries Society, and he’s a certified project Management professional as well.

00:02:19:14 – 00:02:38:22
Steven Schauer
Shaun is a friend and a former work colleague, and the project we’re talking about today is so very near and dear to me. I spent over 15 years of my career working on the San Antonio River Improvements Project. It is an incredible project and I’m so very grateful to have Shaun join us today to talk about it. So let’s dive into Shaun Donovan story.

00:02:39:03 – 00:02:44:11
Steven Schauer
Here on story Sustain Us where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

00:02:44:11 – 00:02:50:12
Steven Schauer
Welcome, Shaun. How are you doing? Welcome to stories. Sustain us. Thanks for joining me today.

00:02:50:14 – 00:03:01:00
Shaun Donovan
Yeah. My pleasure again. Really good to see you again, Steven. If we could catch up and, in a different forum than I probably expected to catch up with you again, but, yeah.

00:03:01:02 – 00:03:29:14
Steven Schauer
It’s just great to see you. And as just, you know, introduced you. We have a history together working at the San Antonio River Authority together. And it’s. Thanks for taking time out of your work day to join me and tell the story of, you know, some really good success story, what’s going down there on the river. And, you know, in a world where there’s so many, you know, hard or, you know, disappointing or sad environmental stories, sustainable stories, there’s some real, incredible success stories going down there.

00:03:29:14 – 00:03:41:06
Steven Schauer
And we’ll get to that in a minute. But, let’s jump into your story, Shaun, what’s what’s your story? Tell tell me about, you know, where you grew up, what life was like for you as a kid, how you became the professional that you are.

00:03:41:08 – 00:04:06:10
Shaun Donovan
Yeah, absolutely. And I do want to start off by I mean, you made a really cool point about the positive stories because, you know, I think it’s really cool to have a put, platform like this to be able to share positive things, because you’re right there. Unfortunately, a lot of the environmental things you hear about are the doom and gloom and the, the negative sides of, of the current, you know, world we’re living in and the environment, the environmental, ecological issues that are there as opposed to the success stories and accomplishments.

00:04:06:10 – 00:04:10:10
Shaun Donovan
So it’s a really cool, work that you’re doing with the podcast. So I can appreciate you having me on.

00:04:10:13 – 00:04:12:11
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Right on. Thanks.

00:04:12:13 – 00:04:32:13
Shaun Donovan
so I’m, I’m originally from San Antonio, but I was actually born in Japan. My parents came over to San Antonio when I was, 4 or 5 months old. So the recollection over there, air force. Air force? Yeah. but we were I was very lucky. My parents both decided to kind of do different tours. my dad was in the Middle East.

00:04:32:13 – 00:04:48:20
Shaun Donovan
Mom was in Korea off and on so we could stay here. So I’ve been in San Antonio my whole life, and, you know, it’s kind of funny that looking back, a lot of my formative kind of environmental experiences or things growing up was, was not San Antonio with San Antonio. My brother and I are both soccer players.

00:04:48:20 – 00:05:11:03
Shaun Donovan
So that was our lives here. Yeah, sports, soccer and things like that. And play basketball. Got soccer weekend. And so whenever we were, free in the summertime, we’d go to the northeast. My dad’s Massachusetts mom’s from New York. And so my earliest environmental outdoor memories were, you know, streams and creeks and lakes and forests in the northeast.

00:05:11:03 – 00:05:33:00
Shaun Donovan
None of them really had San Antonio or fishing. And for brook trout and rainbow trout. But I never really did any fishing for catfish or channel catfish or, sure, bass or anything. So it’s kind of funny that a lot of my where my professional life is in Texas, my kind of connection to that started in the northeastern. the only things that that really helped.

00:05:33:02 – 00:05:54:22
Shaun Donovan
But see, the only thing one of the big things that helped me really connect was the opportunities, you know, the amusement kind of opportunities that were nature related. So the Whitney Museum here in San Antonio. Yeah, my brother and I did like the SeaWorld camps when we were younger. And you did a 4 or 5 day camp at sea Rock for the summertime and there’s a night you get to do a sleepover inside.

00:05:55:00 – 00:06:15:14
Shaun Donovan
you know, the penguin exhibit viewing area or the aquarium viewing area. So those are very indelible memories for me. Growing up as a kid, that was the that was like the big spark. I remember being a kid and saying, forever, I’m gonna be a marine biologist and a marine biologist. And, and that’s kind of where my passion started.

00:06:15:16 – 00:06:45:14
Shaun Donovan
So whenever I was looking for, colleges, I had two requirements. It was, can I play soccer somewhere in which. Not really. No. Wasn’t very good. So I wasn’t going to go play golf. And then can I, can I go somewhere with that biology program? I ended up kind of narrowed it down to two places. There was a place called Springhill College in Alabama that had some soccer that I could play over there, but a buddy of mine was going to in Corpus Christi, and that was we decided to go together.

00:06:45:16 – 00:07:08:02
Shaun Donovan
And so I would do it in corpus for, for college. And that’s whenever the connection to the actual industry and really getting my feet wet in a lot of different places, literally and figuratively, started down in corpus and, you know, love that place. It’s, the campus is an actual island where the islanders get, you know, surrounded by bays.

00:07:08:03 – 00:07:28:20
Shaun Donovan
There’s also Bay system, and behind it, there’s Corpus Christi Bay right in front of it. So you were literally surrounded by, you know, the thing I went there to study and I just I loved that, and I got really fortunate, I volunteered in an environment environmental microbiology lab when I was a junior. Sophomore, let me be a sophomore.

00:07:28:22 – 00:07:50:17
Shaun Donovan
And then I got my first job in the field. I was making five, 25 an hour working in an environmental microbiology lab. And the funny thing is, I always look back at that’s probably one of the biggest, one of the biggest resumé points for me that ended up getting me a job at the River Authority, was volunteering or working for $5 an hour in an environmental microbiology lab.

00:07:50:17 – 00:08:09:06
Shaun Donovan
And I just, you know, I never thought that that would be the thing that would help me land a job that I’ve now been here for 12 years, but I did that for a little bit. then my end of my junior year, going to my senior year, I got an opportunity to do what’s called an RV research experience for undergraduates.

00:08:09:06 – 00:08:28:02
Shaun Donovan
And, yeah, really, really lucked out on that because it’s funny that there’s always these these terms and these there’s always these terms in life where it’s like, you think you have this big downside of, I was I was applying for Parks and Wildlife, Texas Parks and lost department internship. Yeah. And I was down to the final two.

00:08:28:04 – 00:08:47:13
Shaun Donovan
And it was like a young professionals internship. And I ended up not getting it. And I was like, so super bitter because I first got it was a decade older than me. I was like, wait a minute, they’re not a young professional. Yeah, be in this snotty 21 year old kid, not getting 20 year old, not getting an internship.

00:08:47:15 – 00:09:05:14
Shaun Donovan
but then a few weeks later, I got this. Are you this recent research experience for the graduates to, work in a, fish assemblage lab? So, you know, fish assemblages are what species of fish make up this group of organisms? It up in a river or in a creature in the bay or in the ocean. That’s the assemblage of fish.

00:09:05:16 – 00:09:24:12
Shaun Donovan
And I got to do that work in Micronesia over the Pacific. And so I got to go to the summer. So I guess it’s really because I got to go to summer after my senior year, and then the first summer of graduate school, I got to go to Micronesia to do this work. And that’s when I was when I was over there, I fell into this project.

00:09:24:12 – 00:09:42:01
Shaun Donovan
That was my professor at the time, thesis advisor was talking to one of his former students who was a professor at a college in Micronesia. And they were talking one night at this, at this hotel that we were staying out of somehow sourcing about freshwater eels in Micronesia. And yeah, we think there may be a project there for it.

00:09:42:01 – 00:09:59:06
Shaun Donovan
And I just I overheard them talking that night and I said, hey, I’m I’d be happy to do a project on freshwater eels. And that’s how I got into the project that I had. So again, just like a series of very fortunate events for me to lead to and doing some genetic work on freshwater eels over from Micronesia for a couple of years.

00:09:59:06 – 00:10:21:18
Shaun Donovan
And, and, that was such a cool experience, being able to do work like that in a different culture, being immersed in that and stayed up for a month, both times, the two different Micronesian islands and just super, super cool experience to look back on that today as a as a really cool formative opportunity as a young individual, you know, maybe 20, 21, 22 years older.

00:10:21:18 – 00:10:30:03
Shaun Donovan
My two trips that were really, really cool experience. after that, let me leave college.

00:10:30:05 – 00:10:54:14
Steven Schauer
Let me back you up just a little bit for sure. And, definitely want to pick up where you left off. Let me back you up a little bit, because I think I heard you say a little earlier, you know, that you kind of knew at a young age you wanted to get into this field. How old were you when you were doing these SeaWorld, camp overs and and things like that, that not not many folks that I’ve encountered.

00:10:54:14 – 00:11:13:06
Steven Schauer
Anyway, you kind of hit on. They know what they want to do at such a young age. So yeah. Tell me a little bit about that, because that sounds fascinating to me because that’s not my story. I didn’t hit on what I wanted to do when I was young other than play soccer. I also grew up playing soccer, and I just knew I wanted to play soccer forever.

00:11:13:06 – 00:11:19:14
Steven Schauer
And that was not likely for, you know, you know, in the United States in the 80s when soccer wasn’t really a thing yet.

00:11:19:14 – 00:11:28:12
Shaun Donovan
So, yeah, for sure. And it’s also another thing when you’re in the 90s and not very good at soccer. So very little shared experience there. Yeah. Yeah.

00:11:28:14 – 00:11:33:01
Steven Schauer
so how old were you when you kind of hit on this? I this is what I want to do when I grow up kind of thing. Yeah.

00:11:33:03 – 00:11:51:00
Shaun Donovan
And, you know, I think it’s a, it is a really interesting, you know, point because I obviously don’t hear a lot of times you hear I was I changed majors three times in college. I didn’t want to read, you know, back and forth and it’s funny because I mean, this is I can’t tell you, you know, I was doing a year on campus and I was like ten, 11, 12 years.

00:11:51:00 – 00:12:04:19
Shaun Donovan
So my brother was two years older than me. So he was he was always a couple years ahead. So yeah, you know, he was in be 12 maybe so maybe a little bit younger because he was probably like ten, 11, 12, whatever he was doing. And so I was probably eight, nine, ten kind of thing. Yeah. It just it’s just it was always fascinating to me.

00:12:04:19 – 00:12:19:08
Shaun Donovan
It was always, I was a huge fan of water too. So just like being in water, you know, going, you know, going to pools are a couple that my parents had a really good relationship with Terry and kind of like our second parents, they had a pool in their backyard and we were just like, brother, that would be there.

00:12:19:08 – 00:12:43:00
Shaun Donovan
We’d be in the pool for as long as they would possibly let us. So like the water always fascinated me. And then going to those camps, it just it was so cool. And again, going back to Massachusetts and going fishing with my dad and like those creeks and brooks and, you know, I would I would fish for a little bit and I would just like go walk in the creek and I would go pick things up and I remember my brother was playing a game, a soccer game in Austin.

00:12:43:02 – 00:13:01:08
Shaun Donovan
He was probably 11, 12 years old maybe. Yeah. So I was 9 or 10 and I remember going to a little, if he’s playing it, you don’t want to watch your older brother play soccer, you know. Sure. That’s boring. Yeah. So I’m going to walk in Austin, I think it was by Zilker in Zilker Park and just park near Austin or in Austin, Texas.

00:13:01:08 – 00:13:18:19
Shaun Donovan
And there’s, you know, it’s a really cool little creek system. There’s springs there. And so I’m over in this little pool, and I bring the tadpole home with me. And like, I raised this tadpole on to a frog. It’s like, you know, those were things I was nine, ten, 11, 12 years old. And it was just always a fascinating thing for me.

00:13:18:21 – 00:13:38:04
Shaun Donovan
and then as I got a little bit older, you know, we a lot of times TV for us at home was if were watching sports, we were watching a lot of NatGeo or discovery programs. And, you know, as I got older, the planet Earth stuff started coming out. And and that was probably towards the beginning of college or into high school, those, those programs sort of coming out.

00:13:38:04 – 00:13:57:19
Shaun Donovan
And I still have two DVDs for Blue Planet or pointers out of the DVD player, but I those for those shows. Yeah. so yeah, ever since I can remember it was that was that was my goal. And I went into school with the I wanted to be a marine biologist because I got my degree in marine biology and general biology.

00:13:57:19 – 00:14:19:08
Shaun Donovan
And so I was I consider myself very fortunate to be able to have found and connected with that passion. Yeah. When I was, when I was a little kid and I mean, to my, my parents were really great about providing us opportunities to explore those types of things that didn’t go into a sea world camp. You know, the obviously the fortunate part of living in San Antonio and my mom and dad, you know, really stretched themselves.

00:14:19:08 – 00:14:34:19
Shaun Donovan
And I think if you talk to people in the Air Force to to young individuals in the Air Force aren’t making a ton of money. So, I mean, my parents were able to stretch and do things. My brother not like that. And so I mean it, you know, hugely beneficial to have parents that were really committed to the passions that we had.

00:14:34:19 – 00:14:48:02
Shaun Donovan
And, again, our passion for sports. And then for me, it was, you know, it was the, the natural world and more, more particularly the aquatic and marine worlds that were just always a fascination point for me.

00:14:48:04 – 00:15:06:20
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Right on. I thanks for letting us back up in time a little bit. Yeah, I think that that’s an important part and get to know you kind of moment that that that, you know, this is something that you have had a passion for, you know, for majority of your life. And that’s that’s wonderful. So yeah. Tell hi whoever that is.

00:15:06:22 – 00:15:07:04
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

00:15:07:04 – 00:15:28:15
Shaun Donovan
For sure. Okay. And, you know, the the other part that’s interesting too, is we have, we have a hunting scholar, putting scholars through the American Fish Society program. Yeah. The river. Yeah. Yeah, the the high school, they’re high school students. So we get a high school student for eight weeks at a time, and we have Angela cast as our current, hunting scholar.

00:15:28:17 – 00:15:46:20
Shaun Donovan
And so it’s really cool talking to him. And he’s come into my office yesterday and he’s like, hey, I want to go to school and think I going it in Corpus Christi. And I want to know, you know, how do you connect to this is like, man, you we’re having this conversation at home. You don’t realize like, how far ahead of the game you are where you have an internship or you’re 17 years old.

00:15:46:23 – 00:16:12:06
Shaun Donovan
Yeah. You you’re talking to professionals. You’re getting feedback and things. I told my like when I was 17 years old, like I was interested in these things, but I wasn’t, like actively pursuing this passion, you know, getting ready to go to school. But, you know, he’s doing an internship and he’s doing all kinds of things. So and I told him, you know, try as many things as you can, you know, if you have that there, if you have the window of what you’re interested in, you know, you don’t want to be an accountant, you don’t want to be a banker, you want to be a lawyer.

00:16:12:06 – 00:16:31:03
Shaun Donovan
You’re interested in this world, but then try to expose yourself to as many of those different things. Sure. Because you never know what’s going to really, you know, trigger as a true passion or true interest. And so it’s really cool seeing now like that generation. I mean, I talk like I’m the old hat, I’m only 30 years old, but it’s 17 and and you’re like, oh my goodness.

00:16:31:04 – 00:16:49:04
Shaun Donovan
You’re you know, I was graduating. I was graduating my bachelor’s degree when he was born. So I, I’m sure that’s like, you know, that’s a typical thing for the, you know, the generation of people, you know, in their 30s and 40s and 50s in the workforce that are looking at the young people like, oh my goodness. but it’s super cool seeing people like that at that age have that passion.

00:16:49:06 – 00:17:09:22
Shaun Donovan
And even then it’s like the, you know, the how values driven that generation is, is really cool. You know, having I want to work for a company that, yeah, supports the things that I support and has sustainability measures and like I think that’s the super cool thing to see. And so talking to that generation is fine, especially as you reflect back to what was I doing when I was 17, what was I doing when I was 20, what was I doing when I was 25?

00:17:09:22 – 00:17:30:17
Shaun Donovan
And, yeah, very fortunate that that I was able to connect with the passion young and then again be able to find the opportunities to continue to, you know, didn’t do what I’m passionate about today and have some really cool opportunities to accomplish some really cool things that are there, advancing the mental health of the community that is my home and also my workplace.

00:17:30:17 – 00:17:34:04
Shaun Donovan
And so a lot of really cool confluence in my life for sure.

00:17:34:06 – 00:17:56:10
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Right on. And I appreciate that kind of Gen Z, you know, how they approach life as well. I, I had to have, you know, guest on a couple episodes ago that we, we talked about that too, that just how impressed we are with with young folks and I, you know, I had a, even earlier, had a guest on who was, you know, 20 year old youth activist in the UK.

00:17:56:10 – 00:18:12:12
Steven Schauer
And, you know, she’s doing more at 20. And she rattled off this list of everything she’s doing and she’s like, oh, I’m sure this is, you know, not that much compared to other people talk to you. And I’m like, no, yeah, you just did more in 18 months. And most people have done in, you know, many, many decades.

00:18:12:12 – 00:18:17:06
Shaun Donovan
So it’s like you’re in your space longer than mine still is. Yeah. It’s like, yeah, pretty impressive.

00:18:17:06 – 00:18:35:23
Steven Schauer
So it is impressive to see the, the younger generation just jumping in. Yeah. and get involved. So so back to you, I guess as a younger person you were finishing up in Micronesia. Thanks for that little diversion back in time a little bit. I appreciate it, but you were you were finishing up your your work in Micronesia.

00:18:35:23 – 00:18:41:17
Steven Schauer
I think is where we left the story. So. Yeah. Pick us up again. Where where are we going next for sure.

00:18:41:17 – 00:19:08:22
Shaun Donovan
Yeah. And so the the it’s to you know, at that point in time, as I graduated my master’s degree in 2010, the semester I was finishing up my thesis, I work I did some work here back in state. Antonio and Kim Bullis is a military installation that is for army training. So it’s a very it’s a very natural space in the middle of, you know, it’s a natural space, very much in the middle of not natural spaces, you know, where you have this huge developments around it, an endangered species kind of golden sheep warbler there.

00:19:08:22 – 00:19:28:02
Shaun Donovan
So I was doing all this. And then the the next part was like the this was another just like pivotal moment of, of where I could have gone. So, I was I was looking for jobs in the summer of 2010 and I, I’ll always remember where I was at. This happened as I was, I was like, apply.

00:19:28:02 – 00:19:43:05
Shaun Donovan
I probably applied for like 75 jobs over the course of three months. And what’s going to happen with that happened. And I was applying for jobs literally all over the world trying to find a career field. So I get to this point where I was like down to my last few bucks and I was like, I don’t want to.

00:19:43:07 – 00:20:02:22
Shaun Donovan
I don’t want to keep relying on my parents to keep me afloat, you know? So I was like, what? Like, what am I gonna do? I’m and do. So I was applying for these jobs and I was getting an occasional interview. I had an interview with a group called the Gulf and South Atlantic Fisheries Foundation, and then I also had an interview for a local pest control company.

00:20:03:00 – 00:20:12:02
Shaun Donovan
And I was like, I really don’t want to do with all due respect to the pest controllers, it’s a necessary profession. I just didn’t want to do it. It wasn’t it wasn’t my thing.

00:20:12:04 – 00:20:14:06
Steven Schauer
Was it marine biology related?

00:20:14:08 – 00:20:36:07
Shaun Donovan
It was not marine biology related. It was like I went on that I wanted to practice, like basically like a shadowed day. And I’m like crawling through at, you know, I’m, I’m, I’m not a small person for people who haven’t done for us. I’m not I’m not short and I’m not narrow. And, it was like I was like going crawl spaces to, like, set like traps for mice.

00:20:36:07 – 00:20:55:08
Shaun Donovan
And, you know, it was like summer in Texas, and I was miserable. I was like, I don’t want to do this because I can like my my only option for the time being. It’s like tangentially related to my, you know, to wildlife and fisheries kinds of fields you want to be generous toward tangentially, and they offered me the job like on a Friday.

00:20:55:10 – 00:21:10:23
Shaun Donovan
And I was like, I don’t you know, I really don’t want to do this, but I need a job. And so I’m like, I’m gonna I’m gonna take a couple days, I’m going to go. So I had a lot of friends still in Corpus Christi, so we’re dumping all of my friends for a couple of days. Yeah. And it was Monday morning, and I’m like, I’m gonna have to call these people later today and accept this position.

00:21:10:23 – 00:21:35:19
Shaun Donovan
I called that morning on a Monday back to the Office Applications Foundation, offering me a job as a marine fisheries observer. And I was just like the weight of the world lifted up for. Yes, please. Like how fast? And I signed the dotted line for that work. And so yeah, I, I don’t know, you know, how how different things would have been if, you know, that call would have come later if I didn’t get that call at all from them.

00:21:35:19 – 00:21:53:04
Shaun Donovan
I, I still look back and think like, well what, what would my career have been? Where would I where would I fit that after if that little inflection point hadn’t gone the way that it had? And, so I did that for a couple of years, and that was a really cool job. I was able to, work on commercial shrimping boats.

00:21:53:06 – 00:22:20:19
Shaun Donovan
I would go offshore with them for my longest trip, I think in one go was 28 days offshore. Yeah, I did a trip where back and forth for about 42 days offshore, back and forth from the Gulf. Shortly before any of those 42 days, we were doing work with what are called bycatch reduction devices, internal excluder devices. And then we were doing the electronic logbook program where we would see, you know, anything that isn’t shrimp and on a shrimp boat is considered bycatch.

00:22:20:19 – 00:22:40:01
Shaun Donovan
So how much of that bycatch were sport fish, like red snapper or redfish or speckled sea trout? and how many, how what percentage of that bycatch were sharks? And so some of those were endangered species or threatened species. And so you would kind of keep track of that bycatch on those books. I did that for a couple of years.

00:22:40:03 – 00:22:49:09
Shaun Donovan
It was a super cool job. What a really cool kind of stories and cool pictures and just experiences with that. So I love that job, but it was that way.

00:22:49:10 – 00:22:53:23
Steven Schauer
You kind of pointed at where, where were you go on getting in and out of yeah.

00:22:54:01 – 00:23:10:20
Shaun Donovan
We were so I, I did I did a few trips out of Freeport, Texas, which is kind of a kind of Galveston Houston area. So northeast Texas coast. And then I would do some other ones. volunteer koala on square Alabama, comma. Louisiana. so just all Gulf.

00:23:10:23 – 00:23:11:05
Steven Schauer
Coast.

00:23:11:05 – 00:23:28:18
Shaun Donovan
Stuff. Yeah. For that, for that job. but it was really cool, you know, you get it, you get a call, and here you go. You’re going to go meet a boat now, and then you get to leave. And so it was a really cool kind of unknown thing. I think it’s a very cool, very interesting people. it was a fun job for a young single individual.

00:23:28:19 – 00:23:30:23
Shaun Donovan
Yeah. It was a two year experience.

00:23:31:01 – 00:23:40:10
Steven Schauer
Where were the shrimp boat? the folks, you know, eager to have you on board, or were they just like, who’s this guy that’s messing with our business, you know? Right. Yeah.

00:23:40:12 – 00:24:02:02
Shaun Donovan
The, the the guy who, who was my supervisor as I was in your department. The guy who I caught it with, with that with the Gulf and Southern Fisheries Foundation is in Daniel in your partially he said the good thing is there’s there’s observers and state observer. And so he said we’re observers because we actually paid the captains in the boats for us to be on there.

00:24:02:05 – 00:24:11:10
Shaun Donovan
Oh yeah. Yeah. So we had paid them $150 a day. So. So no matter what, no matter how the fishing was, they made 150 bucks a day. That’s a lot of money. But it’s better that. Sure.

00:24:11:12 – 00:24:13:00
Steven Schauer
You’re a paying passenger.

00:24:13:02 – 00:24:33:21
Shaun Donovan
Yeah, exactly. The damn observers were like Noah and the National Marine Fisheries Service. It’s. Yeah. If I was an observer, if you were a captain, I’d say cap and Schauer. Hi. My name’s Shaun. I know you’re leaving this afternoon. I’m going on your boat. And you wouldn’t have a choice if something you had to do it. It was like you sucked it up and you took this observer out on the on the on the water with you.

00:24:33:21 – 00:24:57:11
Shaun Donovan
So, yeah, the captains that we worked with new were coming. They knew we were going to pay them every day to be out there to collect this data. So they they liked us because of those reasons, whereas other captains hated observers. You have who I mean, you go into the wet trainings with the NOAA and the observers, and they would tell us these absolute horror stories of these captains that were just treated like garbage because they were these unexpected people.

00:24:57:11 – 00:25:09:08
Shaun Donovan
And the boats, they’re the boats that are going to agree to be part of our program, are the ones who are going to violations of. Sure. Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s not going to be keeping illegal species. So.

00:25:09:08 – 00:25:18:16
Steven Schauer
Right. Yeah. There’s a reason probably why some of the captains didn’t like the regulatory observers, because maybe they weren’t always doing things the way they’re supposed to.

00:25:18:16 – 00:25:22:10
Shaun Donovan
So I got to change a couple things up. Now that you’re joining me on this boat. So.

00:25:22:10 – 00:25:23:14
Steven Schauer
Exactly. Yeah.

00:25:23:19 – 00:25:28:00
Shaun Donovan
Yeah that was a nice the nice difference. And some of the other folks that did that job.

00:25:28:02 – 00:25:39:19
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Regulators get a hard time. But they’re they have an important role to play in. And at least my my view of the world is yeah. And regulation is a thing. But regulation is important regardless. Yeah.

00:25:39:21 – 00:25:55:14
Shaun Donovan
Yeah. There is a there is a line to walk. Yeah. You know, there is some of that is needed. And I mean, I was stunned by the number of, you know, really it wasn’t a lot, but there’s a couple of captains that would still just like you’re not allowed to keep, red snapper on these boats. He would keep red snapper.

00:25:55:14 – 00:26:11:10
Shaun Donovan
And I’m like, hey, yeah, kind of my job to go back and say what you’re doing. You shouldn’t do this. Oh, it’ll be fine. It’s like, all right, well, I’m going to do my job with it back to shore. Yeah. So. Oh, yeah, I, I got back to shore. And that’s one of those longer stories where there was,

00:26:11:15 – 00:26:17:05
Shaun Donovan
Yeah, a lot of going, a lot of things going on with that particular captain cabinet. yeah. Weren’t the greatest. So. Yeah.

00:26:17:07 – 00:26:26:00
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Well, yeah, that’s an interesting part of your story. I don’t think I ever knew that part of of of your history. So that’s a fascinating job that.

00:26:26:02 – 00:26:26:20
Shaun Donovan
It was for.

00:26:26:21 – 00:26:30:02
Steven Schauer
A few years. Yes. And it sounds like it was interesting. So. Right.

00:26:30:04 – 00:26:50:03
Shaun Donovan
And then the, the kind of the last bit of my journey before the story was, was another kind of just, like, really good happenstance. And so whenever I was kind of finishing up my time, I did not kind of I kind of knew it was like, this is not a long term career thing. Sure, I want to be off shore for a month at a time for the rest of my life.

00:26:50:03 – 00:27:13:13
Shaun Donovan
And towards the end of my job started surfacing in 2012. Yeah. So after developing that relationship, you know, relationships are hard to develop when you’re gone for a month. But cell phone reception, the way you start contacting anybody. And so we we started kind of dating. So that’s kind of where my thought started going. You know, in addition to us starting to date, it was also just like I was ready to stop doing that.

00:27:13:13 – 00:27:37:06
Shaun Donovan
And then I was looking for some jobs, but, you know, not terribly active, kind of starting to look. And so I was because I was gone about nine months out of the year at that for those two years I was prepared. So when I was back and so I was, I was at my parents house for a trip, and my parents were both at work, but they got the San Antonio Express-News at the time, our local newspaper.

00:27:37:08 – 00:27:56:08
Shaun Donovan
and they knew I was looking for a job. So if they came across, they would pass it my way. So I came downstairs one morning. They were both at work, and on the kitchen table was a newspaper cutout of an aquatic biologist posting for a job at the same sort of Authority. So that was how I first heard of the River Authority, and first found out there was a job there with my mom.

00:27:56:08 – 00:27:58:14
Shaun Donovan
Kind of newspaper clipping, put it on the kitchen table.

00:27:58:14 – 00:27:59:15
Steven Schauer
So awesome.

00:27:59:17 – 00:28:16:21
Shaun Donovan
yeah. That was that was how I found out about it. Apply for that job. And I got got that position in October of 2012 here through rotary. And I’ve been here since since then. So started as an aquatic biologist in the environmental sciences department now. And, it’s been a really, really fun, 12 years of my life.

00:28:16:21 – 00:28:37:17
Shaun Donovan
And, you know, I think we do a lot of really interesting, funny things here. but I also never knew about the River Authority until I started working at the River Authority, until I saw that newspaper clipping. And I. Now that you as the, you know, the director of art or communications, intergovernmental stuff before know that getting people to know who we are is a constant.

00:28:37:19 – 00:28:46:18
Shaun Donovan
Yeah, I still have friends going, you know, saying, yeah, my my buddy Shaun, he works for saws in the water system like, no I don’t know. Yeah, yeah, water’s good enough.

00:28:46:20 – 00:28:50:13
Steven Schauer
Yeah. you work for the city. Yeah people. It’s it’s confusing.

00:28:50:13 – 00:28:51:23
Shaun Donovan
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

00:28:51:23 – 00:29:30:12
Steven Schauer
So the River Authority is a I mean I my, my big piece of my heart there after spending 15 years working there and I couldn’t agree with you more. The, the agency does some really impressive work and I’d say progressive work. you know, all the years that I was there and had the, opportunity to travel around the world and talk about the, you know, the River improvements project that we were working on, the missionary project, which we’re going to roll into here, I imagine, with your story, even now when I’m, you know, here in Seattle and, and still in the water world and, what I do here and tell people about

00:29:30:12 – 00:29:54:18
Steven Schauer
what I used to do, you know, the reaction was like, you did that in Texas because, you know, Texas obviously has this, you know, reputation of being right of center politically. And, and when you tell the story, that you’re getting ready to tell, about this really amazing environmental work, that has benefits for economics and has benefits for recreation.

00:29:54:18 – 00:30:21:05
Steven Schauer
I mean, it’s really this wonderful example of, the triple bottom line kind of coming together, this amazing project that benefits people, planet and and, you know, economically, the city. yeah. People don’t just don’t think that kind of stuff happens in Texas, which I think adds emphasis to the to the significance of the story there. Yeah. No, there’s just some really amazing environmental restoration work happening in the middle of Texas, the heart of Texas.

00:30:21:05 – 00:30:45:01
Steven Schauer
So. So why don’t we, move into that? John, tell us a little bit about the, San Jose River Improvement Project, particularly the the Mission Ranch project, which is the ecosystem restoration, section of that big, you know, $384 million project. I won’t talk about it, but I spent most of my life talking about it. But I will let you tell everybody about it.

00:30:45:01 – 00:30:57:10
Steven Schauer
Now that, I don’t work there anymore, and it’s your job to promote it. So what? What is the San Antonio River improvement project in the Mission Reach section? What what is that? And and, the floor is yours. I’ll stop talking.

00:30:57:10 – 00:31:16:13
Shaun Donovan
Yeah. Now you get it, obviously, because you, you know, obviously you have more, you had a longer background while that project was active than I certainly did. And so, you know, you can, I think you can definitely add more context and nuance than I can, and obviously I can. We can collaborate to, to tell that part of the story.

00:31:16:13 – 00:31:35:06
Shaun Donovan
And sure. you know, pick up some things with, you know, more recent last few years. But yeah, I mean, and, you know, you I think your, your point is, is really well taken too, is you hear a lot of these things that, you know, there’s from a distance everything, you know, unfortunately everything seems blue and red, black and white as you.

00:31:35:06 – 00:31:53:09
Shaun Donovan
Well right there are as you get closer to things, there are like with anything in life, there’s there’s nuance that people lose when you’re looking at it from a distance. And there are a lot of really cool environmental success stories in Texas. And, you know, we’re very fortunate to be a part of, of a number of those.

00:31:53:09 – 00:32:20:21
Shaun Donovan
And, the I mean, the, you know, the big one, the big feather in the cap of the San Antonio community. And I say, San Antonio will really expand that to San Antonio and Southeast Bear Wilson-cairns and pull out are the four counties of our political jurisdiction. And so it’s a really it’s a regional success story. Yeah. but at the same time, it’s a federal success story because it is, you know, largely a federally funded project with county dollars and City of San Antonio dollars, a river Authority dollars.

00:32:20:21 – 00:32:46:11
Shaun Donovan
And so, you know, these collaborations are there, you know, in a lot of states, not just the ones that are, you know, the blue states aren’t the only ones that are doing these environmental positive things. Right? You know, it’s also it’s a it’s a very valuing of nature. I think one thing that it does, this is a little bit of a tangent upfront prior to this whole missionary story, but we’ve been doing some of these things recently about telling the story of.

00:32:46:13 – 00:33:06:21
Shaun Donovan
Telling the story of what you do as scientists. And, you know, I think that’s something that I learned started learning here from from you and your and your team that there Authority authorities like we have to tell the story of what we’re doing right to help people understand. Because here in Texas, people value wildlife, whether that’s, you know, for some purposes, like hunting or fishing or that birdwatching or going boating, whatever.

00:33:06:21 – 00:33:22:14
Shaun Donovan
People, people do value the environmental components of, of a place like Texas. And so how do you tell the story to connect with people? Right. And that’s a huge part of it that, you know, you guys and we’re telling the story for years and years about how big this improvement project would be. And that’s what led to federal funding.

00:33:22:14 – 00:33:39:17
Shaun Donovan
Local funding was because we’re telling the story. And so, you know, more recent than a lot of science communication things. But that’s a huge part of it, a huge part of the original. Getting to the success was telling the story of what this could do for a community and getting people locally to buy in because it was not a small investment from the city.

00:33:39:17 – 00:34:02:16
Shaun Donovan
In our small town, you’re a large ticket items here locally as well. So yeah. yeah, a really good point to make is, you know, there’s, there’s there’s value environments throughout the country. It’s just how do you connect to those people and tell the story, engage to touch touch them as well. So end of tangent. But that’s the important tangent.

00:34:02:18 – 00:34:20:20
Shaun Donovan
Yeah. yeah. So the mission reach is, is just south of downtown San Antonio. So everybody knows I’ve met a lot of people know, the San Antonio Riverwalk, that is, you know, the main part of downtown San Antonio. It is, is an actual river system. We always get people going. I didn’t realize the river extended beyond downtown.

00:34:20:20 – 00:34:40:16
Shaun Donovan
And it’s like, you know, it is a man altered structure, but it’s not a man made water body. It is a natural system. And so where the Riverwalk ends, just south of downtown, is the start of the center improvements project, and it’s a small one mile stretch called Eagle Land. And that’s kind of a transition from this.

00:34:40:18 – 00:35:00:13
Shaun Donovan
You know, the the pictures you see online of the Riverwalk that are channelized, restaurants and bars, hotels. And just downstream of that is kind of a transition zone for and it goes into what’s called the missionary, the mission, which is really the heart and the core of the city improvement project. And it’s, in total, if you go to Eagle Land stretch, it’s about nine miles of river.

00:35:00:15 – 00:35:21:01
Shaun Donovan
the San Antonio River is 240 miles in total. So if you look at it from that perspective, it’s a pretty significant chunk of the entire river and a little less than 5% of the entire river, which is a that’s a big restoration project. And yeah, I believe it’s still the largest urban eco speaker, largest urban stream restoration project in the country at at that nine miles.

00:35:21:01 – 00:35:43:01
Shaun Donovan
And, so we’re really proud of that, but it really turned what was this trapezoidal, you know, like mode channel that was there strictly for flood conveyance, you know, from starting in the 30s, there was all sorts of flood conveyance work done in San Antonio that really just the focus was getting water out of downtown as fast as you possibly can.

00:35:43:01 – 00:36:22:19
Shaun Donovan
There was really devastating financial floods and loss of life, floods in downtown. And so that’s what the river was, was it’s like advanced channel, get things out, protect downtown San Antonio as much as you can, and the mission improvement project changed that to make that that trapezoidal channel into a more of a natural river system and put in some, some meanders and some bends and put in Russell structures and have, you know, ripple runs, pools and glide kind of a natural function of the ecosystem, you know, that you pointed out earlier and I know you know, Steve Graham, a former interim general manager and assistant general manager, deputy general manager, all of the titles

00:36:22:19 – 00:36:47:16
Shaun Donovan
at the River Authority, you know, huge, huge proponent of triple bottom line. But that is a really a, perfect example of of the way you can truly measure those things. And it is a it’s a recreational opportunity with the hike and bike trails, and there’s paddling trails throughout that nine mile stretch. Yeah. Like you said, the economic development impact is huge for the southern basin or the southern part of San Antonio.

00:36:47:16 – 00:37:13:15
Shaun Donovan
Excuse me. And obviously the, you know, the environmental components where, you know, we’ll talk about that obviously in a lot of detail here in a minute. But, you know, that being able to combine all three of those things is truly what makes that that project so successful, because people might not ever step foot or care about the river, but they want to go for a jog, or they want to go for a long bike ride, and people might never go on the trail, but they want to go kayaking or they want to go fishing.

00:37:13:15 – 00:37:40:17
Shaun Donovan
And so it really does. It hits a lot of people, and it also brings a lot of environmental opportunities to places that have been historically underserved in southern San Antonio and south of downtown is, you know, definitely a, you know, historically, overlooked part of town. And so this restoration has really connected people to the environment. it also hasn’t had a lot of the negative effects.

00:37:40:18 – 00:38:05:16
Shaun Donovan
you know, gentrification is obviously seen as a, as a big negative, side effect of some of these projects. And we’re finding that right now is our current next restoration project. Yes. I creeks yeah. but in South of town, there’s been some apartment complexes that have come up, but there really hasn’t been that huge economic shift or it’s become unaffordable for for folks that have lived there for generations.

00:38:05:18 – 00:38:36:07
Shaun Donovan
But it really has brought them closer to nature. And I mean, obviously, I’m sure you know, Steven, there’s countless studies that show how much how much people’s lives are improved, that they have a connection to a natural space, just mental health wise, economic wise, you know, outcomes for children, those kinds of things. So bringing people to connection to a closer connection with the river and a healthy ecosystem, I mean, there’s all sorts of, you know, you could you could have an economics podcast that talks about how successful the project is.

00:38:36:07 – 00:38:59:00
Shaun Donovan
You could have a human health podcast on how successful it is. And obviously this one, you know, kind of more on the conservation sustainability side that you could talk about how successful it is. So it’s been a really, really cool project, a really cool success story for San Antonio and for Texas and for the, I mean, for the country, you know, that that you were over there and in Australia when they won the silver prize for the missionary effort.

00:38:59:00 – 00:39:21:05
Shaun Donovan
And that’s a that’s a huge success story, again, for the for the city, the state, the country. And, again, it’s really cool to have in our backyard. We always kind of talk about it as our a little bit of a living retreat for us as an organization to, to be able to do some of the things we’ve done in a this huge stream restoration project to see, like how successful has this been and really trying to measure that.

00:39:21:05 – 00:39:26:04
Shaun Donovan
And, yeah, you know, what can we measure to show that success over time?

00:39:26:06 – 00:39:55:18
Steven Schauer
Yeah, let’s let’s talk a little bit about that. That’s a great transition point. And I think, we could go a number of different ways, you know, from fish to water quality and to riparian habitat. There’s all kinds of, amazing, measurements of success. But I really wanted to focus you in on, in the time that we have left on the freshwater mussels, because that is one, I think, something that people don’t think of top of mind.

00:39:55:20 – 00:40:21:10
Steven Schauer
when you think of a river, you think of, you know, maybe the the fish and the birds and the, you know, the, the plant life and aquatic life, but, you know, freshwater mussels. And that’s not something that somebody thinks about first. Maybe. but it’s such a, an important indicator of success of this project. So, you know, next, you know, ten minutes or so let’s, let’s dive into that story because you led that effort, is still leading that effort.

00:40:21:10 – 00:40:32:17
Steven Schauer
And, it’s really a fascinating and incredibly important part of the success of this project. So tell us about freshwater mussels and in the San Antonio River.

00:40:32:19 – 00:40:55:09
Shaun Donovan
Yeah. I want to I want to flip for a second and ask you a question because I’m sure, you know, I’m very curious too, is like, you know, you were, you know, part of the leadership team at the River Authority when we started floating this idea around. And I’m curious what your you know, what your initial thoughts were when we started talking about, you know, freshwater mussels and freshwater mussel projects and kind of like, you know, I’m curious as to the perspective you have.

00:40:55:11 – 00:40:58:06
Shaun Donovan
You know, that back then, five, eight, ten years ago.

00:40:58:08 – 00:41:37:19
Steven Schauer
Sure. My initial reaction was, this is amazing because it wasn’t top of mind. I wouldn’t had had thought about it. And, I just thought it was such a well thought out, concept that you guys brought to the leadership of, hey, we think we can do this and all the different components of it from the scuba diving, all the testing you had to do, you know, all the different sites you had to monitor for control sites and just the depth and the detail that you and your team put together in on that proposal that was approved and move forward was just so enthralling and from the fact, again, that the kind of the freshwater

00:41:37:19 – 00:41:59:01
Steven Schauer
mussels perspective and what I learned from you, you know, it’s kind of like the canary in the coal mine, you know, mussels can’t survive there. There’s water quality problems, there’s habitat problems, there’s all kinds of things. But if we can show that mussels can survive there, then we can show the environmental lift that this project has, has helped, come along.

00:41:59:01 – 00:42:17:15
Steven Schauer
So from, from my perspective, from the moment you pitched it in, following you in the years of doing it, it was just it was just a, an exciting thing to see you and your team doing and to know that I worked at a place that did that. That was it was really. Yeah, I loved it. I loved every minute of it.

00:42:17:15 – 00:42:26:19
Steven Schauer
Which is why I’m really grateful you agreed to come on the show and tell that story, because I think it’s such an important story, that most people wouldn’t have thought of.

00:42:26:21 – 00:42:43:10
Shaun Donovan
Yeah, I really appreciate, you know, hearing that. And, you know, we always I was joked with Chris Mullin as a former aquatic biologist here at the River Authority. Yeah, they’re kind of close to you now. Yeah. We are. You know, we are always honestly, like, always waiting for the shoe to drop. Like, yeah, we get to do it.

00:42:43:11 – 00:42:59:18
Shaun Donovan
It’s super cool. Everything to do this project, we’re doing all the support. We were always like waiting. Like, how far can we take this thing? Let’s see what we can do. And you know, this this I mean, obviously like like all the without the support of leadership team, without the support of the board, you know, you don’t get those.

00:42:59:20 – 00:43:28:07
Shaun Donovan
Sure. You know, the funding isn’t there. So I mean the support that we got this fantastic. And admittedly there you know, whenever this whenever this stuff started in Texas because there’s, you know, freshwater mussels are one of the most endangered group of organisms in the entire world. I think it’s like freshwater mussels in the freshwater snails are like the two most endangered groups of species that, there was a lot of stuff started to happen here in Texas, a lot of like research looking into these species and, you know, other, other entities in the state.

00:43:28:09 – 00:43:50:04
Shaun Donovan
We’re basically like, we don’t we don’t really care that they’re imperiled or that they’re endangered. We don’t care. We’re going to keep doing what we have to do to maintain our day to day operations. But, you know, the sand wasn’t like that. There was support from you. And, you know, the our our group of stewards, our Steve, Rob and you and, and Steve Graham were, you know, huge supporters and obviously Suzanne Scott.

00:43:50:04 – 00:43:51:19
Steven Schauer
Suzanne. Absolutely. Yeah.

00:43:51:20 – 00:44:10:14
Shaun Donovan
It was awesome to have that support from people because, you know, you know, whatever person I kind of sort of thinking about these projects. It was we think we can do this really cool. Maybe even, you know, unique to Texas project. What support are we going to get? And and so whenever we got that support obviously that that was hugely meaningful for us.

00:44:10:14 – 00:44:14:05
Shaun Donovan
And so that’s really cool to kind of circle back on some of the arguments from your perspective.

00:44:14:05 – 00:44:24:17
Steven Schauer
And I’m glad you guys took the chance and threw it like that, threw the idea out there because it yeah, it was yeah, we we loved it at the leadership team. And so glad you guys did the work.

00:44:24:19 – 00:44:45:12
Shaun Donovan
Yeah absolutely. Again it’s been it’s been a definitely one of the coolest things I’ve been able to do in my career. And so, you know, kind of going back to that, that started things, you know, to to fast forward some of the parts, you know, we did there was all these pending listings of, threatened or potentially, you know, listed, listed candidate species for the Endangered Species Act.

00:44:45:12 – 00:45:03:20
Shaun Donovan
And so we started some research and we started finding them in species in the southern parts of our basin. But we didn’t start. You really weren’t seeing them at all near San Antonio. And and with the Mission Reach restoration project, we started kind of thinking this is huge. Restoring area. And then there’s these old called, you know, remnant channels.

00:45:03:20 – 00:45:24:16
Shaun Donovan
So that because of the channel ization over the years, we talked about a lot of these, these bends and curves. They were part of the main stem were cut off for that trapezoidal channel. They were out of town. Yeah. We didn’t see any mussels in the mission reach. Makes sense. It was completely deepwater for the construction. But we we were seeing these multiple of these little image channels.

00:45:24:18 – 00:45:48:11
Shaun Donovan
So we kind of started thinking like maybe, maybe there’s a chance that because of this restoration project and maybe the water quality is better enough, maybe the the habitats good enough, maybe the sediment quality is bitterness. And so we, you know, that’s when we kind of came up with this idea of, of what’s called the missionary. It’s mussels around ability study where we put some of the, the four most common species in our basin or southern basin.

00:45:48:15 – 00:46:06:07
Shaun Donovan
We put them in these devices in the mission reach 2 or 3 different locations. And then we had a control site down and go out. And we know the population is healthy, going out maybe 150 river miles south of San Antonio. Yeah. And you know, to your point earlier of the why models are so important is they’re filter feeders.

00:46:06:07 – 00:46:33:18
Shaun Donovan
They are periodical lines. A great phrase for that. if a, if the dissolved oxygen drops somewhere, a fish can go from somewhere else, they can go find better habitat. a turtle can get out of the water, and all the other organisms have kind of defense mechanisms, or mussel can move, but not much. It may move, you know, the size of a no, you know, office in a day, some more than others, but they’re, they’re they’re pretty stable organisms.

00:46:33:20 – 00:46:57:11
Shaun Donovan
So if something happens, they’re not going to survive. And so they’re on that, that kind of like this is the true measure of if this project was successful, is this these mussels coming through this project was this is the kind of the pinnacle of success. Yeah. So we did this survivability study. So we started seeing results in like one of our sites was really about the same as our goal, that site, which is really encouraging because that’s a healthy population.

00:46:57:13 – 00:47:15:22
Shaun Donovan
This is growing the same segment of the healthy population. And our other site was just like taking off. It was growing so much faster than the control site, which was like, this is amazing. And then even one day we went out there and we saw we were doing a weight check. We would measure the length and the weight of our mussels every, every pork.

00:47:15:22 – 00:47:30:15
Shaun Donovan
So 3 to 4 times a year. Yeah. We went out there. We were, we were measuring one of our mussels at the same show and we looked at it. It was kind of weird with some of the tissue inside the mussel. We kind of looked up, opened it up a little bit, saw, and it was actually to be pregnant.

00:47:30:17 – 00:47:40:07
Shaun Donovan
So as a gravid female and we saw it, we never we never thought we’d see that in the study. It was just about growth can survive and can grow. Yeah, sure enough, they’re actually reproduce.

00:47:40:07 – 00:47:41:05
Steven Schauer
And reproduce in the.

00:47:41:05 – 00:48:02:12
Shaun Donovan
River. It’s like this mind blowing thing. And we’re being out there with, with, with some of the guys. And then there’s these guys. Larry, Chris, Austin and myself are out there like this, like just floored by this and so super excited about it after we had success with that. I mean, there’s we did toxicology work. so we have a robust water quality program at the River Authority.

00:48:02:14 – 00:48:22:16
Shaun Donovan
Yeah, we do fish surveys because to not get into detail too much, mussels are what are called obligate parasitic reproduce or so they have to parasitized fish at some point in their life cycle so they can take nutrients off of the fish to transform from a larval mussel to a juvenile mussel where they drop off. And so fish are important.

00:48:22:17 – 00:48:40:09
Shaun Donovan
So we’re doing fish surveys and all these things are happening while we’re doing this survivability study. And then, we were already partnering with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to start developing some of these Craw techniques, because this happens a lot in like, the Midwest. There’s a great hatchery, for this in Wisconsin, there’s a great one in Virginia.

00:48:40:09 – 00:49:04:14
Shaun Donovan
And like, those are kind of like the pinnacle of these Fish and Wildlife Service locations that do this propagation work for threatened endangered species. there’s a ton of this work in Alabama and Tennessee and these, these states that is super diverse mussel populations. But it really hasn’t been done much here in Texas. So we’re working with Fish and Wildlife Service to develop some of these methodologies for the other part two is we working with with common species around the country.

00:49:04:14 – 00:49:26:20
Shaun Donovan
We weren’t working. We don’t have a threatened or endangered species in our basin, but we know that there’s a this woman Rosalie, very edge. It’s like 19, 1920s, 1930s conservationist and suffrage suffragist. And she has this quote says the time to conserve a species as wild while it is still common. you know, if you wait until there’s 100 left of a species, it’s going to be much harder to conserve it.

00:49:26:20 – 00:49:52:15
Shaun Donovan
And when there’s 100,000 of them left and you just protect her. Right, right. So we wanted to work with these common organisms. So because they were common, there wasn’t a lot of work for reproduction done on them. So we’ve worked with Fish and Wildlife Service now for seven years, 6 or 7 years to develop those techniques. And this year, you know, we’re finally where we did our we did a kind of a media event in May for the mussel release.

00:49:52:15 – 00:50:20:23
Shaun Donovan
And our staff is actually going out, the third week of July this year to go and release the first cohort of mussels into the river. Yeah. it’s yellow, yellow sand shells. It’s the first mussel reintroduction in the state of Texas. So we’re super proud of that. We couldn’t be happier. And then just yesterday. So, you know, July 11th, our time, Austin Davis, who’s now our project manager, came over and told me for the first time ever, we have all four species in these control baskets.

00:50:21:02 – 00:50:39:06
Shaun Donovan
So we’ve always had these bottlenecks with these species, and some are harder to propagate and reproduce than others. And for the first time ever, now, this year, we have each one of these species are growing to get to the point where they’re like past that main bottleneck. So yeah, we haven’t. We had another milestone just yesterday that it’s very actively happening.

00:50:39:06 – 00:50:57:05
Shaun Donovan
And we’re we’re super, super excited. we’re going to have about 4000 mussels on the river next week. Can we expect some more cohorts later this year in September, October, November this year? We’ll be playing other species in more than the first species on the river. So really, really cool. Time to the project.

00:50:57:07 – 00:51:16:01
Steven Schauer
That is so amazing. You know, I disconnected from it obviously for a few years since I left the River Authority, but I still, you know, follow you all on social media and friends there and everything. And I saw the, the, the, the media, a few months ago, which is what triggered I was like, oh, it’s happening there, it’s there.

00:51:16:01 – 00:51:56:14
Steven Schauer
They made it. They got there, getting there. You know, I got to get show it on and talk about this because I, you know, a few thousand miles away here in Seattle, I was still celebrating that that win that you guys, are experiencing right now because, you know, it is such a you know, the project’s a big part of my life and and, you know, to see, this particular aspect of that project become successful in and not only for the mussels, which is amazing, but for the larger story of how healthy that and, ecosystem restoration project is becoming really in the heart of the seventh largest city in the United States,

00:51:56:16 – 00:52:23:11
Steven Schauer
tells that story of success that, you know, look, everybody, you can restore, a riverine system in an urban environment, to to the quality that these, you know, really sensitive species can not just survive, but they can thrive. They can reproduce. I mean, what a what an amazing success story. I’m just so happy for you and the team and grateful to you and the team for coming up with the idea in the first place.

00:52:23:11 – 00:52:36:15
Steven Schauer
And, and, I’m kind of silently celebrating with you, from a distance because it’s it’s such a big, important win. and, I’m just happy for you guys. So,

00:52:36:17 – 00:52:59:03
Shaun Donovan
That it’s really cool you reaching out because, you know, there was a, there’s a moment where we were doing that, that media event. So we’re down by the river, and there’s, we had like a, you know, a river Authority podium. We were the the regional director for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service was there. And in our chat now, Derek Bays and our chairman of our board, Jim Campbell, and you know, I’m not part of like, the press conference part at all.

00:52:59:03 – 00:53:18:19
Shaun Donovan
We’re there. We’re going to do some some photo ops afterwards. And I had an opportunity to kind of like step back and just see if we have Parks and Wildlife. We have Fish and Wildlife Service there and some of our river Authority partners and the media. You know, it’s, you know, it was a bit of an emotional moment for me, like sitting back and stepping back because a lot of the people who made the project happen are not here anymore.

00:53:18:19 – 00:53:37:03
Shaun Donovan
And, and again, our, our, our entire executive team has turned over with a couple of exceptions. But, you know, that’s not to say that our current executive does not support the idea of of course not very proud of it. But yeah, it’s cool thinking back to, you know, yourself and the executive team we had and then again, talking about Chris Martin as a, you know, project manager and a biologist at him.

00:53:37:03 – 00:53:56:09
Shaun Donovan
And I kind of came up with these ideas, the beginning of our biologists who help us with the work throughout. And and then, you know, the people who are here now who are carrying this, and it’s not like it’s it’s been 1 or 2 people who have done the lion’s share of this work. And it really has been, our utilities operation, who does our wastewater treatment facilities.

00:53:56:11 – 00:54:20:07
Shaun Donovan
Well, did the, the, the, instruments that we put the mussels in for the swimming ability study? our watershed and park operation team was involved in helping us with site access and getting instruments. And, you know, getting the getting gear into the water. And it was an organizational success story. It was, again, a community success story. So it shows the seventh largest city in the country.

00:54:20:07 – 00:54:43:10
Shaun Donovan
And and, you know, the river at the center does not have the greatest reputation even amongst the citizens of San Antonio. You know, you have this muddy water, dirty river and Charles Barkley always coming in. Charles Bronson Parks, you’ve been taking shots at us. Yeah, yeah. but it is such a cool thing. And it was an opportunity to, like, sit back literally and figuratively at that committee as it and, like, look, look at the group and think of things.

00:54:43:10 – 00:55:02:03
Shaun Donovan
And you know, Steve Graham is still here local. And him and I catch up and we’re able to talk about, you know, the success of this project and the support that we’ve had. And again, it was really cool having, you know, you reaching out because if you were, you were part of the project and part of the support of the project and, you know, the early days of advertising for this and talking about doing it, the group getting community messaging.

00:55:02:05 – 00:55:20:22
Shaun Donovan
So it’s really possible in the sweat on the number of people, the amount of hours, the amount of resources that go into this, that ultimately is a really cool conservation success story that had, you know, the it takes a village term obviously applies very, very carefully here. And so it’s a really cool thing to reflect back on.

00:55:21:00 – 00:55:23:19
Steven Schauer
Making me tear up. Dude, that awesome downtown.

00:55:23:19 – 00:55:24:09
Shaun Donovan
Yeah. It’s it’s.

00:55:24:10 – 00:55:25:07
Steven Schauer
I’m so proud of the.

00:55:25:07 – 00:55:51:13
Shaun Donovan
Project from that perspective. We’ve been doing this for from the surveys themselves. We’ve been doing this stuff for a decade. Yeah. It’s been from surveys started in 2014, was our first approved project in in 2017in ability in the last few years this this reintroduction effort. So it really is the culmination of a decade of working, you know, the the unfortunate part we are we’re such a instant gratification society.

00:55:51:15 – 00:56:11:00
Shaun Donovan
Yeah. That these things don’t these that project the big time parts that we’ve had that we’ve had the rope to do this where a lot of people could have said five years ago, we’re going to pull a plug. You know, we don’t we don’t have any tangible results. It’s not mussels in the river. We’re going to pull the plug in the never our board didn’t our executive team didn’t our staff didn’t.

00:56:11:02 – 00:56:36:14
Shaun Donovan
We kept moving forward and kept moving forward. And now we’re like, you know, we’re finally, you know, bearing the fruits of our labor over the years. And that’s such a cool thing to reflect back on it. you know, Chris and I joke because, you know, part of that part of this project was our first draft of the project was on a on a cocktail napkin on a plane coming back from a conference in Kansas City, was heard from a conference and maybe Portland coming back from a conference together.

00:56:36:14 – 00:56:42:21
Shaun Donovan
That was we started kind of brainstorming this whole thing. Yeah. We are. It’s such a cool success story.

00:56:42:23 – 00:57:05:19
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Well, it is an amazing story. And thank you, for your leadership from day one to present day. you know, it it takes somebody to have the idea and the know how in the, in the ability to do it, you know, and and yes, you had a whole lot of support around you, but there there needs to be someone with the vision and, and the know how to get it done.

00:57:05:19 – 00:57:30:08
Steven Schauer
And you and your team of incredibly talented, knowledgeable scientists, got it done. And there’s clearly more work to be to be done. and, you know, everywhere around the world, certainly on the San Antonio Rivers. No exception. But it’s it’s good to to every once in a while pause and celebrate the victories because as we as we, you know, talked about the beginning victories are hard to come by sometimes in the environmental world.

00:57:30:08 – 00:58:07:08
Steven Schauer
So when you, have won like you’ve experienced with the mussels in the whole mission rich ecosystem restoration project, you do celebrate those and, and, you know, let them let the world know that it’s possible, you know, as we’re trying to figure out how to how to move forward sustainably, you know, into the future. This is a, an ongoing example for people to file, which is why the project won that global award, because it was recognized as, as something that globally, people should be looking at on what to do in cities.

00:58:07:08 – 00:58:15:02
Steven Schauer
So thank you for all your dedication and passion and effort to be such an important part of that. So yeah.

00:58:15:03 – 00:58:17:03
Shaun Donovan
Appreciate appreciate all that, Steven, for sure.

00:58:17:05 – 00:58:34:10
Steven Schauer
Yeah. So, the time we have left since, we want to celebrate wins, but we also want to you know, hopefully people listening to this are watching this, you know, or tearing up like I am and feel inspired. They want to go. They want to go attack something and do something to help. What can I do to help?

00:58:34:12 – 00:58:48:20
Steven Schauer
Yeah. So what can what can people do either to support you at San Antonio River Authority or support their their local freshwater system or just what what’s your call to action for people to, to do here? now that they’ve heard the story.

00:58:48:22 – 00:59:11:00
Shaun Donovan
Yeah. The the you know, I think there’s, there’s two I think there’s two levels of course calls to action. We talk about environmental things. Obviously there’s that there’s the what can I do. that’s that’s I say easier because the other the second one is we’ll talk about a second is a much bigger list. But, you know, think about think about where you are, think about the system you interact with and how what is it?

00:59:11:00 – 00:59:35:20
Shaun Donovan
What are the little things you can do to ensure that you individually or your family or friends or your community are, are taking those little steps to protect, you know, a local water body or a local, whether your thing is a water body or a forest or, a meadow, you know, something? We I think we all have a to some level of visceral connection to some part of nature.

00:59:35:20 – 01:00:01:03
Shaun Donovan
And. Yeah, there’s nothing too small. yeah. We always talk about, you know, put, put plants, you know, put plants, native flowers on your, on your back, back porch. If you have an apartment, you know, put it, you know, go in and try to be involved in a community garden. you know, you have to have the means and the ability to do larger things like put, you know, do something in your, in your, in your yard that collects stormwater, so it’s not running off and, you know, decreasing waterfall.

01:00:01:09 – 01:00:20:10
Shaun Donovan
Those are all, you know, building up to larger things you can do. And, you know, when you you have a chance to connect with your local organizations. And, in Texas, we have river authorities that that there are a lot of those groups have outreach opportunities. But, whether that’s, you know, a watershed conservancy in a different part of the country or, or whatever your local group is.

01:00:20:10 – 01:00:42:13
Shaun Donovan
If it’s a if it’s a trash pickup day, if it’s, you know, just learning about what’s around you, there’s steps you can take. There are groups across the country, you know, people would love to have you help out with, you know, preserving and protecting natural spaces, and enjoy those natural spaces to go out there and go to a park, go to, you know, go kayaking, go appreciate those kinds of things.

01:00:42:13 – 01:00:57:21
Shaun Donovan
And I think that’s one thing we always talk about, you know, kind of bring it back to the mussels for a second. It’s we always talk about like the connection you get when you experience these things. You know that the first I never worked with mussels side of the river story. And the first one, I picked up a mussel out of the sand or out of the gravel.

01:00:57:21 – 01:01:18:01
Shaun Donovan
It’s like you have this lifelong connection to that experience. And so if you have those experiences, you connect to those things better. So, you know, if you have the opportunity to at a time go to go to those natural spaces, engage in those and you know, the the second part is the bigger part is, you know, it’s the it’s the making choices with things.

01:01:18:01 – 01:01:36:07
Shaun Donovan
And, you know, hopefully, hopefully you have a connection to this where you do want to, you know, use your voice in your vote to vote for things that that you believe in from an environmental perspective. And I’m not going to not I’m going to get into, you know, the national local politics. Sure. But that is a way you can use your voice and just be.

01:01:36:07 – 01:01:37:13
Steven Schauer
Active in in voting.

01:01:37:18 – 01:01:59:14
Shaun Donovan
Yeah, yeah. Active in voting. You know, obviously, you know, whether that’s a federal election or a local election, state election. I mean, there’s all sorts of ways that, you know, you know, ask, ask your local community leaders, ask your city council representative, ask your, you know, in our case, you know, county commissioners, ask those people like, what do you that you value environmental things, that it doesn’t have to be who you voting for president.

01:01:59:16 – 01:02:16:03
Shaun Donovan
It could be you know, who your local constituent. You know the local leaders you have in your community. What do they believe in and are they going to support this park? You want to be what you want to, you know, block off for environmental sustainability purposes. And yeah, what are they going to advocate for nature based solutions or low impact development.

01:02:16:03 – 01:02:40:19
Shaun Donovan
Things to help with water quality. Are they going to, you know, not, make decisions that compromise environment for the sake of, you know, profit that triple bottom line, nobody’s saying stop developing anything in the entire world, but there’s ways you can do those things. And an intelligent, thoughtful manner advocate for those things. And and that’s harder because it takes a lot of people to get there.

01:02:40:19 – 01:02:59:02
Shaun Donovan
And, you know, you can you can spend your dollars conscientiously and try to work with organizations that that share your values, that driven, you know, generations that are coming up behind us who. Yeah, I think a whole heck of a lot more about that stuff than we did when we were kids. And, that’s such a cool thing to see that people are understanding.

01:02:59:02 – 01:03:20:11
Shaun Donovan
Like, I’m going to if I’m going to spend my dollars at your organization or with your company, you have to have the same beliefs. I mean, that’s great. You were. Yeah. We talked earlier about, you know, we were in Colorado, my wife and I, there’s things to talk about how they’re, you know, they’re 100% sustainable. And they only, you know, those kinds of things are options you can possibly have if you have the availability to choose those types of things.

01:03:20:11 – 01:03:41:13
Shaun Donovan
And so, you know, that’s a huge part of it. And it may not seem like you’re moving the needle right then and there by yourself, but trust me, you are, you are. You’re making a difference with those things. And if it adds up over time, it’s not just your actions, it’s the actions of the community. Right? you know, take pride in these things and celebrate these things, and you get an opportunity to do so.

01:03:41:13 – 01:04:00:20
Shaun Donovan
And you know, I always and I always felt so counter to what we do as scientists to go out and like, you know, talk about the things you’re dealing with that’s, you know, that’s very not scientific. You, you do your research and you make your papers, but it’s like but the community connects to those kinds of things. So for people that are in the industry like don’t be shy to tell your story.

01:04:00:20 – 01:04:20:12
Shaun Donovan
Don’t be shy to to say yes to your public affairs representative and got to do a media center, a blog or a social media post. And those things move the needle a lot, and it helps get that community connected and excited about things. And, you know, we find that in San Antonio, getting to talk about the perception of this dirty, muddy river.

01:04:20:12 – 01:04:39:09
Shaun Donovan
It’s like such a cool resource we have in our backyard that people in the community don’t necessarily think that. So if we can change their thoughts, they’re going to be more prone to protecting yourself. Yeah. Whether you’re in the industry or not, there are a lot of things that you can do to help with local advocacy or statewide advocacy or federal advocacy.

01:04:39:11 – 01:05:02:16
Steven Schauer
That’s wonderful advice. Thank you. Shaun. the last set of questions, and I know we’re, you know, appreciate your time today. I’m sorry. And I like ending every episode talking about, hope, and, you know, hope is not, you know, where the work gets done. You got to. But hope is what gives you the reason to go do the work, you know?

01:05:02:17 – 01:05:27:02
Steven Schauer
And hope is this idea that you can envision a better future, but have some personal agency to make that better future a reality. So, so I’m going to ask you three questions. Kind of rapid fire. Just give me the first kind of get that reaction to these questions. the first question is what is your vision for a better future could be for you personally, professionally or for the world?

01:05:27:02 – 01:05:30:12
Steven Schauer
What’s what’s your vision for a better future?

01:05:30:14 – 01:05:58:16
Shaun Donovan
my vision for better future is people, people valuing the space and the world around them as much or more than they value the material things. you can buy a new phone, you can buy a new video game, you can buy a new whatever your thing is. But that forest, that river, that creek is the only one that’s going to be there.

01:05:58:18 – 01:06:09:03
Shaun Donovan
And you can have your phone, you can have a video game. You can also have that. So people valuing those spaces as much as we do the things that are, you know, within our direct grasp all the time.

01:06:09:05 – 01:06:14:06
Steven Schauer
Right on. Why is that your vision for a better future?

01:06:14:08 – 01:06:37:03
Shaun Donovan
because I think it’s, I think it’s a realistic thing. I think that I think it’s an attainable. You know, it may sound very lofty, but I think it’s very attainable. we are, we all have a connection to that in some form or fashion. We may lose it. We may have a connection. Whatever. We were an eight year old kid.

01:06:37:03 – 01:06:56:21
Shaun Donovan
You know, my my wife talking about. She’s an eight year old kid picking, picking blackberries. Is it, you know, down in the coast of Texas when she was younger and she wasn’t a big outdoors person? Bush kind of found that connection again. We can all find that, and we can all have that. And as we have these opportunities to expand these spaces that are available to people, I think it’s a realistic thing.

01:06:56:21 – 01:07:01:12
Shaun Donovan
So that’s why I like a vision for the future, because I don’t think it’s an unattainable thing.

01:07:01:14 – 01:07:24:09
Steven Schauer
Right. On the last question, then imagine your future vision is reality. The don’t do live in a world where people value that space as much or more than they might value the material things within their immediate grasp. So it’s real. It’s happened. We’re there. How do you feel?

01:07:24:11 – 01:07:48:23
Shaun Donovan
called, you know, the the being able to sit back and enjoy and not, you know, we have a lot of positive stories. But again, there are a lot of negative ones. And I feel like maybe we yeah, that’s or at least on the back end of that, of that constant churning of the wheel of trying to not take those two steps back after that one step forward.

01:07:48:23 – 01:07:58:11
Shaun Donovan
So I can’t relax, enjoying, enjoying a creek or somewhere, probably. Right. and,

01:07:58:13 – 01:08:16:10
Steven Schauer
Well, thank you, Shaun, so much for your time today. Thank you for all the amazing things you’re doing for the, San Antonio and South Central Texas community. And, frankly, the the nation in the world where your work is really kind of the, leading the way in many areas. So thank you for all that that you’re doing.

01:08:16:12 – 01:08:31:19
Steven Schauer
And thank you for taking time to join me today. And share your story with us and, really appreciate it. I mean, think we’re going to continue to follow you from afar and cheer you on and look forward to celebrating your next, your next victory down there. So thanks for thanks for being here with me today.

01:08:31:21 – 01:08:40:12
Shaun Donovan
Yeah, we really appreciate it, Steven. It’s an awesome opportunity to chat with you again, appreciate the very kind words. And I was always excited to talk about it. And we can’t.

01:08:40:14 – 01:08:41:23
Steven Schauer
All right. Take care.

01:08:42:01 – 01:08:42:17
Shaun Donovan
Mr..

01:08:42:19 – 01:08:43:22
Steven Schauer
But.

01:08:43:22 – 01:09:14:14
Steven Schauer
And that brings us to the end of episode ten of Stories Sustain us ten episodes. That’s a bit of a milestone, and I couldn’t be happier than having Shaun Donovan as my guest for this 10th episode, sharing his incredible journey with us and speaking about the transformative impact of the San Antonio River Improvement Project. I appreciate Shaun teaching us about the critical role of freshwater mussels as indicators of river health, and the ongoing efforts to bring them back into the urban area of the San Antonio River.

01:09:14:16 – 01:09:40:18
Steven Schauer
The work being done by Shaun and the rest of the team at the San Antonio River Authority is truly innovative. That word gets thrown around a bunch, but in this case it is the right word to use. and I know that personally because I was there for 15 years, so maybe I’m a bit biased. but working on that project for over 15 years, I saw firsthand all of the innovative thinking and collaborative work that went in to make that happen.

01:09:40:21 – 01:10:15:00
Steven Schauer
It was a massive project that involved, multiple agencies, multiple people across the, city of San Antonio, Bexar County, the River Authority, which is a regional entity. our partners at the federal government. it just involved an incredible amount of people all coming together to do this amazing ecosystem restoration work. and one of the highlights of my professional career, up to this point, anyway, is undoubtedly the opportunity that I was given to be in Brisbane, Australia in September of 2017.

01:10:15:00 – 01:10:41:17
Steven Schauer
I guess it’s almost seven years ago now, and I was there, and had the honor and privilege of accepting the international River Prize on behalf of the sameAntonio River, the River Authority and the community. Everybody who worked on that project. that project was recognized as being one of the most innovative projects in the world that was really looking at that triple bottom line, balancing people, planet and profit.

01:10:41:17 – 01:11:10:22
Steven Schauer
And every aspect of that is is really captured in this project. We only really talked about the freshwater mussel work today with Shaun, which is really fascinating and fun and innovative. And I thought you as an audience would enjoy something different. How often you get to talk about freshwater mussels? well, we could just as easily have talked about other aquatic species that are showing an incredible rebound in an urban area because of this ecosystem restoration project.

01:11:10:22 – 01:11:37:13
Steven Schauer
The Guadalupe Pass was reintroduced and it’s thriving. Other fish species that weren’t reintroduced but have migrated back up the river now that the habitat is there for them to to be healthy and to survive. Other fish species are coming back into that section of the river. including one sensitive species, the log perch. It’s a very water quality sensitive species, and it was identified in being in that area of the river as well.

01:11:37:15 – 01:12:11:19
Steven Schauer
So there’s fish species that are coming back in addition to the aquatic, the freshwater mussels that Shaun is working on. We can talk about the riparian habitat, all of the vegetation. Over 20,000 trees were planted. hundreds of different species of native plants were reestablished along that section of the river. and the, incredible operations and maintenance team that are in this constant, you know, work mode of trying to to fight off the, non-native, invasive species that are wanting to make their way back into the project.

01:12:11:19 – 01:12:48:16
Steven Schauer
And they’re doing an incredible job because, the native plant species are starting to volunteer and come back into this area as well. More native species are there than what were planted. So they’re coming back as well. we can talk about the success of avian, species. There was a massive avian study done. and when I left the agency a little over two years ago, I think the count was close to 210 bird species were counted using the ecosystem restoration project, including some some real special, species of bird as well.

01:12:48:18 – 01:13:12:08
Steven Schauer
So in every aspect of, the ecological measurements, that project is a success. but beyond just the planet part of the triple bottom line. all of the people that are enjoying all the hiking bike trails, paddling trails that go through there now, all of the recreational opportunities, the birdwatching and the picnicking that can be done.

01:13:12:10 – 01:13:37:03
Steven Schauer
it’s truly bringing people back to the river as well, through this section of the city of San Antonio. And then you tie that in to economics and cultural things. So that section of the San Antonio River, goes near the San Antonio Missions, which are recognized as a World Heritage Site. So the rivers connecting to these cultural treasures that are recognized by the world as cultural treasures.

01:13:37:05 – 01:13:59:00
Steven Schauer
And economically, the area is starting to rebound as well. and the river, restoration has been a real catalyst for that. So every measurement of success this project is hitting and it’s quite incredible. And it was an honor to be a part of it. and I’m going to load up the show notes with, link so you can go and learn more about it.

01:13:59:00 – 01:14:21:10
Steven Schauer
If you’re unfamiliar with this project. There’ll be links to websites and documentaries that I made when I was there, and other information so that you can learn about this incredible, ecosystem restoration success story. There’s so much kind of doom and gloom in the news about and rightfully so. There’s a lot of problems around the world. but here’s a bright, shining star of a success story.

01:14:21:12 – 01:14:44:12
Steven Schauer
and it was a thrill and an honor to be a part of it. I loop back in, get back on subject here and topic here. And, let me get back to so thanking Shaun one last time for his vision of a future where people value and protect natural spaces as much as material possessions. that really resonates deeply with me, and I hope it did for you, too.

01:14:44:14 – 01:15:08:01
Steven Schauer
So Shaun’s call for action reminds us that individuals can make a difference by taking small steps to protect local areas and supporting organizations that share their environmental values. Every little bit helps. That’s for sure. So if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends and family. Subscribe, rate and review stories. Sustain us on your favorite podcast platform.

01:15:08:03 – 01:15:36:07
Steven Schauer
Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and share more inspiring stories like that of Shaun Donovan. So thank you for your support on the next episode of Stories Sustain Us. My guest will share how she discovered her parent’s lost cookbook, which contained authentic Indian and Pakistani recipes. And not only did she update and republish it, but she’s using it with a purpose beyond honoring her parents and heritage through sales associated with the book.

01:15:36:09 – 01:15:59:16
Steven Schauer
My guest next week is on a mission to provide clean water to communities in need by supporting the installation of critical water pumps. So tune in next week to learn how purpose driven work, which is also sometimes called impact driven work, supports sustainability by addressing social and environmental issues and contributing to the well-being of communities and the planet.

01:15:59:18 – 01:16:24:19
Steven Schauer
Purpose driven work is meaningful and impactful beyond just financial gains. And next week’s story drives home that point. The episode will be available on August 27th. Wherever you listen to podcasts and stories sustain income. I hope you check it out. So till next time I’m Steven Schauer. Please take care of yourself and each other. Take care.

Listen to the podcast or watch the full interview.

Summary

Nadia Arab, born and raised in Portsmouth, UK, shares her journey of discovering her parents’ lost cookery book and republishing it. The book, titled “The Road from Karachi,” is a collection of authentic Indian and Pakistani recipes that hold deep meaning and purpose for Nadia and her family. Alongside the book, Nadia is on a mission to provide clean water to communities in need, with a goal of installing 100 water pumps. She is raising funds through the sale of the book and direct contributions. Nadia’s vision for a better future is one of harmony, where people embrace different cultures and show kindness and compassion. She believes that this will bring more joy, happiness, and fulfillment to the world.

About the Guest

Nadia Arab- UK born teacher and instructor. Nadia has helped to re-created a cook book full of lost and found recipes. Nadia wanted to fulfil her parents dream of their lost cook book so she went and found their book and re-published it 30 years later having found it through a random convo. Nadia has embedded her father and mothers name in the title of the book and the colors of the book also represent water which is close to Nadia heart as she lives in a city by the sea. Nadia sells books and raise funds for clean water in India, Sri lanka, Pakistan, and Kenya.

Contact Nadia at [email protected].

Show Notes

The Road From Karachi: https://www.theroadfromkarachi.com/
Just Giving Crowdfunding: https://www.justgiving.com/page/nadia-arab-1665763083697?newPage=true

Keywords

cookery book, republishing, Indian recipes, Pakistani recipes, clean water, water pumps, fundraising, harmony, cultural diversity, kindness, compassion

Transcript

00:00:00:00 – 00:00:25:19
Steven Schauer
Welcome back to Stories Sustain Us, where we explore the inspiring stories of individuals making a meaningful impact in our world. I’m your host, Steven Schauer, and today we’re diving into a story that beautifully blends tradition, compassion, and a vision for a brighter future. My guest today is Nadia Arab, who uncovered a treasure trove of family history in the form of a lost cookery book.

00:00:25:21 – 00:00:54:01
Steven Schauer
This book, now republished as The Road from Karachi, is a collection of authentic Indian and Pakistani recipes that reflect her rich cultural heritage. In this episode, Nadia shares her passion for cultural harmony and her belief that by embracing diversity and showing kindness, we can build a more compassion knit world. Her story is one of resilience, generosity and the power of food to connect us all.

00:00:54:03 – 00:01:22:00
Steven Schauer
Nadia is a UK born teacher and instructor. She wanted to fulfill her parents dream of their lost cookbook, so when Nadia republished it 30 years later, after having found it through a random conversation, it just makes for a great story. Nadia has embedded her father and mother’s name in the title of the book, and the colors of the book also represent water, which is close to Nadia’s heart as she lives in a city by the sea.

00:01:22:02 – 00:01:50:02
Steven Schauer
But Nadia is. Journey doesn’t stop at preserving the past and promoting cultural harmony. Nadia is on a mission to create a better future by raising funds through the sale of her book and direct contributions to provide clean water in India. Share. Lanka Pakistan and Kenya. Her story clearly demonstrates that any business can be purpose driven, and she is inviting all of us to join her cause.

00:01:50:04 – 00:02:05:10
Steven Schauer
So sit back and get ready to be inspired by Nadia Arab’s journey from the pages of a lost cookbook to her vision for a better, more harmonious future. Here on story sustain us where we are inspiring action through the power of storytelling.

00:02:05:10 – 00:02:12:08
Steven Schauer
Well. Welcome, Nadia. Welcome to Stories Sustain Us. Thank you for joining me today. How are you?

00:02:12:10 – 00:02:14:14
Nadia Arab
Yeah. I’m fine, thank you. And how are you?

00:02:14:16 – 00:02:26:15
Steven Schauer
I’m doing well. Thank you very much for coming on the show. And I appreciate your time. I’m. I’m over here in Seattle. I know you’re over in the UK, so let everybody know where where in the UK are you coming from?

00:02:26:17 – 00:02:32:06
Nadia Arab
And I’m from Portsmouth at the bottom of the of the whole country. Right down.

00:02:32:06 – 00:02:40:08
Steven Schauer
But yeah I’ve, I’ve been there. There’s, there’s a famous old ship there in Portsmouth isn’t there one like. Yes.

00:02:40:10 – 00:02:43:20
Nadia Arab
Yeah. We got Mary Rose. You got the HMS victory.

00:02:43:22 – 00:02:48:20
Steven Schauer
Victory. That’s right. Yeah yeah yeah. Did a tour of that a few years ago. Yeah. Oh nice.

00:02:48:22 – 00:02:50:03
Nadia Arab
Lovely place. Yeah.

00:02:50:05 – 00:03:00:21
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Well it’s a, it’s a beautiful coastal town there. So nice. Nice to have you. You join me in the coastal town of here in Seattle. So it’s nice to have you.

00:03:00:23 – 00:03:02:09
Nadia Arab
Love to be here.

00:03:02:11 – 00:03:19:23
Steven Schauer
Well, let’s jump into your your story. As the program goes, we’re talk a little bit about your background, and then we’ll get into, the, the book that you’ve, kind of recreated. But let’s talk a little bit about you first. So tell me a little bit about your background, and your story. Nadia.

00:03:20:00 – 00:03:54:05
Nadia Arab
Right. So born and bred in Portsmouth, and all my life I’ve been here in the UK. I went to school here, I went to middle school, I went to secondary school. I did my GCSEs, my A-levels, and then I went on to university and I did my degree, my first degree in sociology. And then from that I did a master’s degree in it, which then I became an IT teacher and I started work, and I still do still teach in it.

00:03:54:07 – 00:04:17:09
Nadia Arab
And then I trained alongside my master’s degree. I did my, fitness qualifications. I did it as like a hobby thing that I wanted just to get qualified in. And then it just so happened that I got a job in the fitness industry as well. So today, for instance, I taught aqua aerobics this morning. Hence why I’m still in my in my kit here, but, yeah.

00:04:17:09 – 00:04:42:00
Nadia Arab
So that’s what I’ve done. I’ve also got my PGCE a degree in teaching as well. And yes. So my life was very much about working in it, delivering it. And that was my I thought that was my path. Yeah. Until I found my parents cookery book, which they lost 30 years. And that’s with 40 years knitting now.

00:04:42:02 – 00:05:05:07
Nadia Arab
And, yeah. So I found their lost cookery book, which I’ll tell you all about the story about what happened there. And, I republished it, wrote it, didn’t know how to publish a book, but I managed to do it. And it’s now in waterstones.com. Nice. Which is a massive thing achievement, because I never thought I could get to that point.

00:05:05:09 – 00:05:33:05
Nadia Arab
And the where it’s called the road from Karachi and the road from Karachi has a meaningful project is all about family. It’s all about love, is all about cooking. And the reason for the name, the road from Karachi is because our stands for Riaz my dad and cake stands for Khalida, the road from Karachi. The riding colors are blue, which which, signifies water because I’ve been brought up near water.

00:05:33:07 – 00:05:59:05
Nadia Arab
And I’ve also got a water project linked to the book as well. So yeah, so my path has gone in a very different direction, which I never thought we’d have a go down this path. I’ve got schools cooking from the book, so it’s on the curriculum. So I’ve got young students cooking, and I’ve got people cooking, learning and installing water pumps with me for the ride from Karachi.

00:05:59:06 – 00:06:03:18
Nadia Arab
And my mother, she. So she’s beaming. Her dream has come true. And my dad.

00:06:03:20 – 00:06:15:00
Steven Schauer
Night. Now you’re. Let’s go back in time a little bit before we catch up to the to the book and everything. Your parents, they immigrated to the UK. Is that is that correct?

00:06:15:02 – 00:06:37:10
Nadia Arab
Yes, they did. So my parents said my dad’s Indian Punjabi and my mum’s Pakistani. They came to Portsmouth on a honeymoon, and then they decided to stay in Portsmouth because they loved the boat. So that’s what my dad said. And then they had us children and they then decided to run an Indian cookery school back in the 80s.

00:06:37:12 – 00:06:47:11
Nadia Arab
Very brave of them, very, very brave. I said, mom got you say brave to put an advert out and do that. But yeah, they went ahead and did it and they were very successful back in the 80s.

00:06:47:13 – 00:06:52:00
Steven Schauer
Fantastic. And you have how many siblings you know? One.

00:06:52:02 – 00:06:53:12
Nadia Arab
There, one brother and one sister.

00:06:53:12 – 00:07:10:16
Steven Schauer
Yeah, yeah. And so you said that your whole whole life there in, in Portsmouth, did you, were you involved in any of the boating activities or anything as far as that concerned, growing up as well, since that’s what attracted your father to the area? Yes.

00:07:10:22 – 00:07:22:13
Nadia Arab
Yeah. Very much water. We were all about water around here. I’m all surrounded by water and boats and naval base and. Yeah, so my life was very much around that type of stuff. Yep.

00:07:22:15 – 00:07:32:03
Steven Schauer
Yeah. What what were some of the things that you remember growing up as a, as a kid as far as being involved with water, with your family, what were some of the activities that you did?

00:07:32:05 – 00:07:49:19
Nadia Arab
So we would go to the dockyard and look at the boats, look at HMS victory, look at the Mary Rose. We would have boat trips around the island. There’s a thing called a hovercraft. We would jump on the hovercraft and jump on to go to the on white and see different areas on the boats in the water.

00:07:49:19 – 00:07:54:22
Nadia Arab
And yeah, so very much that’s the type of things that we got involved with.

00:07:55:00 – 00:08:26:17
Steven Schauer
Nice, nice. So in any other, you know, as far as, you know, growing up, was there any other kind of drive to be involved in, these kind of purpose driven or, you know, because your, your book. Now, as we get to that here in a few minutes, you know, you have this kind of purpose behind it, honoring your family, honoring your heritage, obviously such an important part of the book, but then also the, you know, the, the funding of, water pumps.

00:08:26:17 – 00:08:41:15
Steven Schauer
So, you know, kind of being involved in impact work or purpose driven work, was that some way that you were kind of raised by your family, of always looking out for others in the community, or when did that come to you as as far as a passion?

00:08:41:17 – 00:09:08:20
Nadia Arab
Yeah. So I’ve been very I’ve been brought up to very much give and to, to look out for people. And it’s all about love and giving, you know, family. But, what happened with me was one of my neighbors. She had a hosepipe out in her garden, and I felt really agitated by the wastage of water. And the this particular person had this hosepipe out for quite a long while.

00:09:08:22 – 00:09:32:04
Nadia Arab
And I thought to myself, why am I feeling inside, quite agitated by this waste of water? And then I noticed I was putting cups underneath, gripping taps, and then using that water to put in plants. And I thought, hold on, why am I doing this subconscious? I’m just doing stuff to save water. And, I’m very spiritual. So I thought, okay, somebody is giving me a message here.

00:09:32:04 – 00:09:52:06
Nadia Arab
Something is telling me something. I need to follow this. So I popped on to Google and I just so it just so happened to see a company providing water pump. So I bought a water pump in my name and it went out to Pakistan. Then I thought to myself, do you know what? It would be lovely to get local businesses involved.

00:09:52:08 – 00:10:12:22
Nadia Arab
And all of a sudden for Instagram, I got a message through from a local cafe saying to me, I want to work with you. I’ve seen your book. I love your recipes. Can we produce something? So I said, if you want to work with me, then let’s create a dish that will donate out to clean water and then let’s make this happen.

00:10:13:00 – 00:10:15:08
Nadia Arab
And then that’s how it all started.

00:10:15:09 – 00:10:21:05
Steven Schauer
Nice. And how long ago was, was that this kind of transformation?

00:10:21:07 – 00:10:23:06
Nadia Arab
That was last January.

00:10:23:08 – 00:10:48:19
Steven Schauer
Okay. So you just moved moving into this new space. So, do you want to tell me a little bit about. I’m fascinated. I love Indian food and and it’s one of my favorites. So, my wife and I, we, you know, Thanksgiving in November is a big holiday here in the States. And, for the last several years, my wife and I don’t have a big family around us.

00:10:48:19 – 00:11:09:22
Steven Schauer
So we actually go out for Indian food. It’s it’s like our holiday treat, and it’s, you know, it’s such a wonderful, you know, this is great food. We love it. So tell me a little bit about your, your parents in the 80s and, and what they were doing and the creation of the, the first creation of this cookbook, I guess.

00:11:09:22 – 00:11:21:07
Steven Schauer
And, I think it’s got an interesting story of it’s an original creation and then kind of lost in time and how you found it. So tell me, tell me a little bit about that.

00:11:21:09 – 00:11:49:14
Nadia Arab
Yeah. So the original book, in fact, I have got the copy here, with me. So the original book, it was typed up, at the typewriter and it was very much very thin, very, what? I found it it was very used, which is a good sign because obviously the person that was using it was, but the way I found it, by the way, the way I found the book was unique in itself.

00:11:49:16 – 00:12:07:19
Nadia Arab
But yes, the book back then, they wrote it. I think they got the secretary to type it up. What Mumsnet is she did. She typed it up. They helped us and, they then managed to get the book in a local bookshop as well. And, mum said to me that that was her dream, that was her passion.

00:12:07:19 – 00:12:27:23
Nadia Arab
And my dad said to me, no, this is what we came. We did, we had loved the food. We wanted to share the spices back in the 1980s. We wanted to share the flavors. But, my mum and dad moved area so they couldn’t go back to the cookery school. And then they lost their copy of the book.

00:12:28:01 – 00:12:52:08
Nadia Arab
And I remember being eight years old and I thought, you know what? If I ever find this book, I’m going to do it for them. And over the years, we would just like drips and drops. Talk about the book. You know, just like a little conversations here and there. Yeah. And then one day I was at work and I was speaking to a colleague of mine about food, and she said to me, I think my dad was on this course back in the day.

00:12:52:08 – 00:13:09:03
Nadia Arab
Nadia and I thought, you know what? Let’s see if it is that course. Because I’ve had this, I’ve heard this many times, but it was never the course. Yeah, but on this occasion it was. And she gave me the book exactly 30 years later from Mum and Dad publishing.

00:13:09:05 – 00:13:10:06
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

00:13:10:08 – 00:13:28:18
Nadia Arab
So I took it home and my father, mum, my mother said to me, this is your path, this is your journey. You need to somehow republish this and get it out to the market, because this is our dream. And then my mum said to me, I would love the cookery school to start back up. So I thought, you know what, I’m going to do it for you.

00:13:28:18 – 00:13:56:18
Nadia Arab
Even though I work full time and part time, the love for my parents and their dream, I just wanted to do it for them because they had a quite difficult upbringing and they had lots of challenges. And I thought, okay, I’m going to make a difference here. So I spent four and a half years of all of my heart and soul, and everything went into this book, and I managed to publish it for, well, I gave it to my mum, I finished it, yeah.

00:13:56:20 – 00:14:19:04
Nadia Arab
And mum, actually, she cooked every single dish in that book and we used the kitchen table. The graphic designers kitchen table to all the pictures is very authentic. And then we put some videos in it as well that you can watch videos of the kitchen and yeah. Then I was told, no, do you need to buy an ISBN?

00:14:19:04 – 00:14:25:07
Nadia Arab
So I did not thinking it will get anywhere. And it ended up in Waterstones.

00:14:25:09 – 00:14:43:11
Steven Schauer
So it’s waterstones.com. I want to make sure we, we promote that so folks can know where to where to go get a copy of the book. So prior to, to doing this where were you a cook as well? I mean, is this something that you kind of grew because your parents, you kind of grew up cooking as well?

00:14:43:11 – 00:14:50:02
Steven Schauer
Or were you kind of learning all of these recipes as you were recreating the book?

00:14:50:04 – 00:15:21:09
Nadia Arab
I was learning it whilst recreating. I was very much resistant, by the way. I was like, no, it’s not me, I’m not going to do it. But the book really has encouraged me. In fact, I am now a chef, believe it or not, and I teach people. I create dishes and we’ve got specials on in restaurants, by the way, here in Portsmouth, the Karachi special dishes that go out and they donate to clean water and I designed them with the restaurants and cafes.

00:15:21:11 – 00:15:28:22
Nadia Arab
Yeah. So my life has gone from something that I thought I would never do in my whole entire life to something that I’m doing now and I really love.

00:15:29:00 – 00:16:07:07
Steven Schauer
Yeah. And that I love that connection. Back to the year eight year old self. I mean, what it what a great journey from kind of making that commitment as a young child to life. You know, transforming for you as an adult. What a what a great story. I really appreciate that. So tell me a little bit more, I guess, about what, what’s your favorite dishes in there and what you know, what what are some of the things that that, you really enjoy eating or maybe the challenge to make that you hope other folks, you know, get the book and take up the challenge?

00:16:07:09 – 00:16:33:17
Nadia Arab
So my favorite has to be Joe Frasier, the Chicken Joe Frasier, which regularly in Mom’s New Cookery School. So me and mum have the cookery school now, and we have chickpea curry, which we do for vegans. There’s madrassas, there’s desserts, and then there’s, chapati making that. We do the starters, the chorus, the Moses. Yeah.

00:16:33:22 – 00:17:03:12
Nadia Arab
Every single thing in that book has meaning and purpose. Are all the dishes that we picked were very linked to our home and the branding, the colors are all related to the dishes and the home. The colorful with the spices. Everything in that book is very, very linked to meaning and purpose, to the point where in the book they Mum and dad, published in 1987 and the price is 19.87 pounds.

00:17:03:14 – 00:17:24:12
Steven Schauer
Nice, nice. Fantastic. Do you, tell me a little bit about the cookery school, I guess. I mean, that that sounds, you know, also like a kind of a great, you know, reinvention for your, your, your mother as well as is you getting to do this together from from her doing it in the 80s. How did that come about?

00:17:24:12 – 00:17:32:11
Steven Schauer
Was it a result of of making the book again as well, that kind of cooking school kind of came back to life around the book.

00:17:32:13 – 00:17:54:09
Nadia Arab
Absolutely. Yeah. So what happened was whilst I was writing the cookery book, I had a vision board and I cut out kitchens, I cut out bookshops, I cut out all sorts of things to put on my vision board, and one of them was to restart mum’s cookbook cookery school. So after we published, I was like, that’s it, when I’m determined to do this.

00:17:54:09 – 00:18:04:10
Nadia Arab
So I was walking around Portsmouth looking at the kitchens, and I walked into this one place and I thought, oh my God, this is my vision board kitchen.

00:18:04:12 – 00:18:05:04
Steven Schauer
Yeah.

00:18:05:06 – 00:18:25:04
Nadia Arab
And so I spoke to the owner and he said to me, I will trial you, Nadia, and I want you to cook to the staff members and train the staff members. So I went in with my mother. We trained the staff members. We passed, thank goodness, and now we are we running the cookery school. From there.

00:18:25:06 – 00:18:54:00
Steven Schauer
I love, I love that, yeah, I’ve used vision boards in my past before and it is it’s amazing how those work. It’s it’s just a interesting I appreciate your, spirituality around it that you put your faith in into these, you know, kind of recreating a new life. And then you did. You did the work. You went out and he did the work.

00:18:54:00 – 00:19:06:21
Steven Schauer
But but it you know, that tie to the vision and doing the work and then coming back, coming to pass is it’s just a great, a great reinforcement of how to get things done, how to move things forward. So yes.

00:19:06:23 – 00:19:07:20
Nadia Arab
Yeah.

00:19:07:22 – 00:19:20:11
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Any anything else you want to share about your vision board experiences or any anything else that’s kind of come to be because you’ve envisioned it and you did the work and now it now it exists. It’s a real thing.

00:19:20:13 – 00:19:47:03
Nadia Arab
Absolutely. So I did put Waterstones on my vision board and that came true. And I also put down the the water. So I had an association of the water and something. So I actually I have the the boats HMS victory. I’ve got that on my vision board that one day will be on there and will be potentially or might be doing an event or something on that boat.

00:19:47:05 – 00:20:09:16
Nadia Arab
Yes. So I’ve got that on there. I’ve got an actual building that’s got a cookery school on there. Yes. So I’ve got all sorts of things on that, on that vision board. But it’s very motivating. So that’s what drives me. So when I see it and I see my parents faces, it’s I’m very driven by it all because I’ve got it visually there.

00:20:09:18 – 00:20:34:00
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s part of the powerful motivator, keeping you focused on. You got to, you know, keep moving forward. So that’s wonderful. Yeah. And I just I love that. So tell me a little bit about this. You know, you mentioned kind of the how you came about the desire to do clean water and power. And I appreciate that that story.

00:20:34:02 – 00:21:03:11
Steven Schauer
And so where as, as money is being raised in, in Portsmouth, that the restaurants and through the sale of the work, where, where is this money going to benefit you? I think you’d mentioned Pakistan, but I believe and looking at your website, there’s other places that are also benefiting from your, drive here. So talk a little bit about, you know, the, this kind of impact driven work that you’re doing that’s helping other parts of the world.

00:21:03:13 – 00:21:26:22
Nadia Arab
Yeah. So when I purchased my first water pump, I looked at other charities that were installing clean water out in particular areas. Now, in my head I thought, I’ve got family in Pakistan, I’ve got family in India, I’ve got friends and family that live or have and connections in Sri Lanka. And I have friends that have, connections in Kenya.

00:21:27:00 – 00:21:49:01
Nadia Arab
So I thought, okay, these are the areas that I want to focus on. So I then went on, I actually work, I did a bit of cyber security work, so I did some work in a cyber security place for work experience. And he just so happened, the owner said to me, Nadia, I’m actually jumping on a call with a company called African Adventures.

00:21:49:01 – 00:22:05:11
Nadia Arab
Do you want to jump on it with me? So I jumped on the call and the guy said to me, I know you, Nadia. I’ve seen your book. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. And he said to me, week of school in Kenya, would you like to provide water for this school? And my heart was like, wow.

00:22:05:11 – 00:22:10:04
Nadia Arab
And that was one thing I had on my question board. Yeah, that was on my vision board, I remember. Yes, I.

00:22:10:04 – 00:22:11:22
Steven Schauer
Was going to ask that’s that.

00:22:11:23 – 00:22:33:07
Nadia Arab
Yeah, that was my vision boards. So I remember having a school, I got a school on my vision board and I thought, wow, oh my God. And then we managed to like raise enough to get clean water in Kenya and in Western Destiny school. So we got we started that. And then I looked at other companies because this, this place only did Kenya.

00:22:33:09 – 00:22:59:03
Nadia Arab
So I thought, who can supply water to, you know, India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan. And there was a there’s a charity called One Nation. So I then contacted them, told them what I’m doing, and they said, no problem Nadia, let’s do this. So I thought, okay, I’m going to start building my water pumps with you because you go out there and you got a good reputation.

00:22:59:05 – 00:23:23:04
Nadia Arab
And then one day my principal at my college called me. He said to me, no idea what you’re doing. I’m going to give you a challenge. And the challenges? 100 water pumps. Can you do it? Initially I said, no. And then I thought, do you know what? I’m doing it? So that’s where the 100 water pump mission is come from.

00:23:23:06 – 00:23:26:13
Steven Schauer
And how close are you now to getting there?

00:23:26:14 – 00:23:28:07
Nadia Arab
I’m on 85 now.

00:23:28:09 – 00:23:34:20
Steven Schauer

85. Let’s hope that this podcast pushes you over the 100 limit that we get to know.

00:23:35:00 – 00:23:55:10
Nadia Arab
I really do need some, you know? I mean, you want someone to talk to some pumps for me to get me $100, buy a book or I have got a PDF copy, by the way, now. So people come from America like where you are and. Yeah, that’s going for 10 pound. So that’s half the price of the actual back.

00:23:55:10 – 00:23:59:09
Nadia Arab
But that again part of it donates out to clean water.

00:23:59:11 – 00:24:21:08
Steven Schauer
Nice, nice. Well, let’s, let’s imagine you’re going to get well past the 100. What’s going to be your next what’s going to be your next goal. Because you’re going to get there. You’re you’re almost there. You’re going to get there. It’s going to happen. We know. Yeah. You know, it. So what what are you going to what are you going to take on next when you accomplish that first 100 goal.

00:24:21:10 – 00:24:54:05
Nadia Arab
I’m going to carry on because I’ve loved the journey. So I kind of feel like the universe has said to me, this is your path, this is your purpose, this is your meaning. And I’m going to carry on. So I’m going to make more dishes on in restaurant cafes. I’m going to get water pumps. I’m going to make a difference in schools in particular by doing the workshops with kids to get water pumps, doing cookery sessions around areas, to get water pumps, to get some sort of doing do learning, doing good and then giving, giving back as well.

00:24:54:05 – 00:25:24:19
Nadia Arab
So very good example is I’ve actually got a school, a local school here that are cooking from the back. So they’re being taught from the books a year seven, eight, ten and 11 are cooking from the book, maybe very young. Yeah, but they’re all cooking and it’s on the curriculum. So my plan is to get it into more schools, getting more kids cooking, getting more people around adults as well, cooking, getting pubs, restaurants, cafes, cooking from it and just basically making a difference and getting more pumps.

00:25:24:21 – 00:25:54:00
Steven Schauer
Yeah. Well you’re going to you’re going to do it. I know it’s it’s already happening and I can just see it with you already that you’re going to continue to make a big difference in the world. And, I’m really excited for you and I. We talked earlier about how this whole journey was kind of started from love, and that’s clear that that’s so clear in in how you’re telling this story that there’s so much love and passion that you have for this project, for your parents.

00:25:54:04 – 00:26:01:00
Steven Schauer
You know for sure. But for the world for wanting to make a difference. Yeah. I just it from you.

00:26:01:02 – 00:26:27:06
Nadia Arab
Oh, yeah. If everything can. Even the book says inside Made with love. Because literally my heart went into this whole thing, and now I’m seeing the impact locally and globally. I’m thinking, wow, this is, like, internally so fulfilling. And nothing, no money, no anything can beat the feeling that I’ve got now because I’m beaming. I’m on cloud beyond happiness.

00:26:27:08 – 00:26:46:12
Steven Schauer
Yeah, that is so clear that that’s radiating from you through the, you know, video and across the world that’s so clear and that’s, you know, makes me happy when I get to see someone, filled with such joy and love and passion for what they’re doing. It’s really wonderful.

00:26:46:14 – 00:26:46:22
Nadia Arab
Yeah.

00:26:46:23 – 00:27:09:16
Steven Schauer
Thank you. Nadia, I want to give you a time call to action. I know we kind of talked about a few things here. You know, the Waterstones and, you know, clearly the call to action is, is to get involved, to purchase the book, to support, your, your mission in the world. But I would, you know, what what do you want folks to do.

00:27:09:17 – 00:27:24:12
Steven Schauer
Who who are listening to this or watching this? How can they help you? Or what do you want them to do in their local community? What’s what’s your call to action for people to to make a difference and either help you or help the world be a better place? What do you want people to do?

00:27:24:14 – 00:27:49:05
Nadia Arab
So I have got a Go Fund Me link where people can donate, and I have just set up a crowdfunder as well. The crowdfunder I really need help with because I’ve got nothing in there at the moment. I’ve just set it up so if anybody can put some money in there, donate or give it anything in there that would help me get some more water pumps and sell some more books.

00:27:49:07 – 00:28:06:02
Nadia Arab
Share the love, share the recipes. I was very close the other day. I got a little bit disheartened because I’m not very good at sharing this stuff, but doing this actually will help me get the message out and get people doing something. But it’s it’s a crowdfunder that I need help with and just getting the message out.

00:28:06:02 – 00:28:25:18
Nadia Arab
And, if locals, even in America, want to make a special, want to donate out for a clean water pump, they can do it for a zoom video call with me, and then it can be that the moneys can be transferred into one of the funding accounts. It’s it’s not it’s not hard to do so. Absolutely. We can do this.

00:28:25:20 – 00:28:49:23
Steven Schauer
Perfect. Offline, the way we’ve been communicating. Send me those links to the, to the go fund me in the crowdfunding, links, and we’ll make sure that that gets included. On the video here as we’re talking, as well as on the notes page. So, folks can can get to those links and, contributed to help you out.

00:28:49:23 – 00:28:50:18
Steven Schauer
So,

00:28:50:20 – 00:29:07:13
Nadia Arab
Yeah, that’s right. Another thing, another call to action would be because the, you on a different country to me. And I know shipping costs are quite high to purchase the PDF because that will help. Yes, in some respect as well. And that way you got a copy as well. And yeah.

00:29:07:14 – 00:29:28:05
Steven Schauer
Perfect. And, yeah. For audience members in the UK, go buy the book for full price and support and for for those audience members who might be in other parts of the world, United States or other places, go online and get that PDF and I will be getting one, by the way, because we’re going to test out some of those recipes here.

00:29:28:05 – 00:29:47:10
Steven Schauer
We do, we’re really adept at making some, butter chicken here and which we love, but we, we want to, expand our home cooking abilities so we don’t always have to go out in and eat it. So, I will definitely be purchasing the PDF copy of that book, and I.

00:29:47:15 – 00:29:54:05
Nadia Arab
Yes, make sure that you do scan the QR code. There are QR codes in the book, two videos.

00:29:54:07 – 00:30:15:08
Steven Schauer
Nice. Thank you. And I appreciate that, that you’re sharing that as well. So other folks know how to do that when they get the PDF. But I can’t wait to to try out some of those new recipes. So anything else? Any other calls to action, any anything else that you would hope folks would do to to support your your drive here to.

00:30:15:10 – 00:30:45:18
Nadia Arab
Yeah, absolutely. So if you can directly sponsor a water pump as well, they are 160 pound each and you get your name, you get your brand logo on there, and then you specify where you want it. So you can say to me, it out with three countries in particular India, Sri Lanka or Pakistan. And that money goes to the most pump and then 10 pound of it will come back to my, my side for the admin and etc..

00:30:45:18 – 00:30:56:02
Nadia Arab
Not it’s not a lock 10 pound. No. It’s just like for my time and just like setting it up and just making sure that my CIC community of interest companies just sustained my end as well.

00:30:56:04 – 00:31:23:15
Steven Schauer
Of course. And I appreciate you clarifying that administrative part, because that’s that’s often when you’re donating to charities or other groups, sometimes that’s kind of hidden and you don’t know. You don’t really know how much of the contribution is going to the benefit versus going to the, admin side. And that’s a small amount that you’re keeping. And as and we have businesses, we need to have income coming in to keep them up.

00:31:23:15 – 00:31:37:18
Steven Schauer
So thank you for clarifying that. And that that makes a lot of sense. So I’ll make sure, and how can folks, just do the direct contribution. What what’s how do they get in touch with you to do that.

00:31:37:20 – 00:32:01:09
Nadia Arab
So they could I got the bank account details on the website. Okay. And, if they if you’re from a different country, just email me and then I can give you the international Iban number that I can put on on there for the email, the email address I’ll give to you. But you’ve got, you have admin account, the admin at the road from Karachi.

00:32:01:11 – 00:32:08:13
Nadia Arab
Just email me on that and then I’ll give it all the information to transfer for a water pump.

00:32:08:15 – 00:32:15:02
Steven Schauer
Okay. And do you want to give the website, name is as well. So folks know to directly go there.

00:32:15:07 – 00:32:22:02
Nadia Arab
Yeah. It’s somebody WW dot the road from karachi.com.

00:32:22:04 – 00:32:35:19
Steven Schauer
Perfect. Make sure that that is on the notes page as well for folks that link directly to you and and get involved by the PDF or by the book or make a direct contribution. So or get involved. Yeah.

00:32:35:20 – 00:32:45:00
Nadia Arab
That was I would love in America for your school kids to be coming from this. This would be amazing if that could happen.

00:32:45:02 – 00:32:49:12
Steven Schauer
Awesome. Well, maybe this will be the start of opening. Opening that door.

00:32:49:14 – 00:32:50:14
Nadia Arab
Okay. Okay.

00:32:50:16 – 00:33:27:01
Steven Schauer
I hope so, I hope so. So, Nadia, thank you so much for your time. I, I end every episode, talking about hope. And, you know, you’re you’re doing such a, kind of a love filled, passion filled work with the cookbook and then trying to provide clean water to other countries of the world, knowing that other countries around the world might not be as fortunate as as you are in the UK or as I am here in the States.

00:33:27:03 – 00:33:47:18
Steven Schauer
Where we can just turn on the tap and generally have clean water coming at it at any time. So, you know, this idea of hope is that you can envision something and then you have some ability to make it come to pass. It might be difficult. It might be, you know, hard, challenges along the way.

00:33:47:18 – 00:34:10:19
Steven Schauer
And it and it might fail, but you have this vision and ability to try to make it happen. So I want to ask you three questions. And just kind of give me your, your gut reaction, to these three questions and, and I because I’d love to hear about your your bit of hope. So how do you what what’s your vision for a better future.

00:34:10:19 – 00:34:18:06
Steven Schauer
And it could be for you personally, professionally or for the world. What what’s your vision for a better future?

00:34:18:08 – 00:34:43:06
Nadia Arab
For harmony to happen between people and for people. Just to be kind and considerate and loving to each other, and also thinking about what what goodness can you give to that person and what goodness can they give back? Because when you leave this world, you’re not taking your stuff with you. You’re taking the goodness and you’ll take in the good deeds with you.

00:34:43:06 – 00:35:01:04
Nadia Arab
And that’s what I would love to see more of around the world, especially with what’s going on with different countries and stuff like that. So yeah, that’s what I would like to happen, just more harmony between different faiths and cultures and understanding that we are all different and we just have to embrace it.

00:35:01:06 – 00:35:13:00
Steven Schauer
Nice. And I think you kind of answered the second question a little bit, but I want to give you a chance to to dive a little bit deeper. Why is more harmony your vision for the better future.

00:35:13:02 – 00:35:39:04
Nadia Arab
Just so that people embrace different cultures? When you have different cultures learning different things and tasting different food, you got different experiences. Life will be boring if we’re all the same. So when we’re all different, you know, it’s it’s brilliant and harmony harmonizing between different cultures and faiths and that understand and it brings more joy, brings more happiness, brings more fulfillment, brings more everything.

00:35:39:08 – 00:35:42:20
Nadia Arab
So yeah, that’s why fantastic.

00:35:42:20 – 00:36:00:05
Steven Schauer
Now last question. Imagine now we’re living in that future where there’s more harmony. And everybody is embracing cultural differences and sharing kindness and compassion, and it’s happening right now. How does that make you feel.

00:36:00:07 – 00:36:11:03
Nadia Arab
Even more fulfilled? Even though that I am very fulfilled right now, I’ll be even. I’ll be overflowing with fulfillment that I think everybody around me radiating more and glowing more.

00:36:11:05 – 00:36:33:20
Steven Schauer
Nice, nice. Well, Nadia, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you for everything that you’re doing to make the world a better place. I can’t wait to get the cookbook and try out some of the recipes, myself, to support your your vision for a better future. I’m going to do my little my little bit to to bring the future of harmony.

00:36:33:22 – 00:36:38:18
Steven Schauer
To be. So thank you so much for joining me today. It’s been a pleasure.

00:36:38:18 – 00:36:41:14
Nadia Arab
Speaking with you. Really lovely.

00:36:41:16 – 00:36:48:15
Steven Schauer
All right, well, best of wishes. And I can’t wait till you sell enough to make a thousand pumps. 10,000.

00:36:48:15 – 00:37:02:17
Nadia Arab
Pumps? Yes. I would love that. I this is my journey now. Even when I, when I hit, like 90 or 100, I’m just going to carry on. And then whatever’s left with me, I’m buying water pumps. It’s all going to pumps and testing.

00:37:02:19 – 00:37:05:10
Steven Schauer
Well thank you, Nadia. I wish you all the best.

00:37:05:12 – 00:37:06:22
Nadia Arab
Thank you.

00:37:07:00 – 00:37:07:20
Steven Schauer
All right.

00:37:07:20 – 00:37:34:08
Steven Schauer
That brings us to the end of today’s episode of Stories Sustain Us. I want to extend my heartfelt thanks to Nadia Arab for sharing her incredible journey with us, from discovering her parent’s lost cookbook and bringing it back to life as the road from Karachi to her inspiring mission of installing water pumps for communities in need. Nadia’s story is a testament to the power of purpose driven work.

00:37:34:10 – 00:38:03:14
Steven Schauer
Nadia’s vision of a world where people embrace different cultures with kindness and compassion is truly inspiring to me. Her dedication to making a positive impact through the publication and sale of the cookbook, which benefits her Clean Water initiative, reminds us of the importance of taking action to create a better future for all. You know, I was eager to speak with Nadia because I thought the story of the found cookbook, combined with the Purpose Driven business model, was a great fit for stories.

00:38:03:14 – 00:38:30:15
Steven Schauer
Sustain us. Purpose driven business model for those who may not be familiar with that term is one where the primary goal is not just to generate profit, but fulfill a larger mission that benefits society and or the environment. These businesses align their operations, products, and services. The core purpose that often addresses social, environmental, or ethical issues and a purpose driven business model.

00:38:30:16 – 00:38:56:00
Steven Schauer
Profit is seen as a means to further the company’s mission rather than an end goal. You know, we’ve talked quite a bit in these first few episodes about moving away from a shareholder first business model to a triple bottom line approach, balancing people, planet and profit. While there are many ways to do that, purpose driven businesses typically align incredibly well with a triple bottom line approach.

00:38:56:02 – 00:39:23:21
Steven Schauer
Patagonia is probably the largest and most well known purpose driven business with its mission. We’re in business to save our home planet. That’s Patagonia’s mission statement. We are in business to save our home planet. Patagonia is a clear leader in environmental activism and sustainability. The company uses recycled materials, promotes fair labor practices, and donates a portion of its profits to environmental causes.

00:39:23:23 – 00:39:51:11
Steven Schauer
Their worn wear program encourages customers to repair and reuse their gear, reducing waste. Because Patagonia knows, one of the best things we can do for the planet is keep stuff in use longer and reduce our overall consumption. Say that again. Patagonia knows one of the best things we can do is to reduce our overall consumption memory for profit business promoting reducing consumption.

00:39:51:13 – 00:40:25:14
Steven Schauer
Well, I certainly want more, if not all, large multinational corporations to follow Patagonia’s lead. I would also like to see more small businesses, startups and entrepreneurs following Nadia’s lead by having Nadia on today’s program. I wanted to show you that you don’t have to be a big, giant international company to have a purpose driven business model. So please join me in thanking Nadia for being with us today and for the work she’s doing to bring more joy, happiness, and fulfillment to the world and to you, my audience members.

00:40:25:15 – 00:40:43:19
Steven Schauer
I hope Nadia’s story has inspired you to think about how you can make a difference in your own way. At a minimum, one way you can make a difference is to buy a copy of Nadia’s cookbook, The Road from Karachi. And my wife and I love Indian food and we’ll be working our way through the recipes in Nadia’s book.

00:40:43:21 – 00:41:10:19
Steven Schauer
So if you’re in the UK, get a hard copy of the book. If you’re in the US or anywhere else in the world. Purchase the digital PDF version like I did. I can tell you the book is really well done. The photos are mouthwatering good and the recipes are really easy to follow. Make sure you go to the notes page of this episode, where there’s a link to Nadia’s website where you can purchase the book or directly support her Water Pump initiative with the donation.

00:41:10:21 – 00:41:37:00
Steven Schauer
If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your friends and family and subscribe, rate and review stories. Sustain us on your favorite podcast platform and when you get your copy of The Road to Karachi, leave me a message about your favorite recipe and I’ll make sure that we get that message back to Nadia as well. So your feedback then, just so you know, your feedback is really important and it helps me reach more people to share more inspiring stories like this one.

00:41:37:02 – 00:42:13:08
Steven Schauer
Now quick plug for next week’s episode of Stories Sustain Us. I’m really excited to have a close friend and former mentor join me next week. And this guest just happens to be the state director of The Nature Conservancy in Texas. We have a great conversation about ecosystem restoration, conservation, and a number of topics related to sustainability and climate change, including a recent major milestone accomplished by The Nature Conservancy in Texas, the protection of 1 million acres of land that’s a big deal in Texas, a state where over 95% of the land is in private ownership.

00:42:13:10 – 00:42:30:16
Steven Schauer
So check it out on September 3rd. Wherever you listen to podcasts and at stories Sustain us. Dot com. So thank you for joining me today. I appreciate all your support. Till next time I’m Steven Schauer. Take care of yourself and each other. Take care.